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To put on paul manafort and how robert mueller's team could use that as leverage to get further into donald trump's inner circle, potentially right up to donald trump himself. >> well, it is a two-step process. the first step is try to put pressure on manafort himself to plead guilty. why does this put pressure on? because the government's case was always again -- against the two of them. mueller said the two were involved in this lobbying work for the ukrainian government for nine years and they made millions of dollars, perhaps $75 million and the two devised this complicated scheme to hide ...

Conducted in manafort's house, they have everything. they have, what, more than a dozen computers. they have -- >> yeah. >> they have files and files of records. obviously they have a paper case. why would manafort not plead guilty if he hadn't been promised already a pardon by the president? >> well, that's a great question. i think, you know, there is every chance that he will plead guilty. sometimes it takes certain kinds of people, very prideful people a certain period of time to sort of come to grips with the reality they're facing. it took gates some time. it seemed like a dicey thing ri...

This is a paper case, too. you don't need witnesses to prove this up either. you've got beak the e-mails you just mentioned, the tax records and you know, the contrary accounts. that's really all you need. this is a paper case too, a very strong case. you make up how dumb people are sometimes in their e-mails. >> ben, i'm sort of amazed. here's paul manafort just doing this stuff. i mean, until robert mueller comes along. here he is doing what a lot of these are public transactions what he's alleged to have done in terms of money laundering where he's taking out mortgages against them and no o...

I'm not surprised they added the tax fraud accounts that were coming if you read the first indictment. we're still in a little bit of not knowing what's going on. >> not with gates. one thing that stuck out to me when you talk about pressure, people made this how the first set of charges were paper cases that you don't need witnesses. i either registered or you didn't. there's a bunch of stuff. there's some evidence here what these people are putting in e-mails, one of the things happening here is they're alleged to be doctoring financial information in order to acquire loans. and at one point...

>> so here is a data point for mueller's bio that i think is very revealing. he left a cushy job at a firm making a lot of money to be a homicide prosecutor in d.c. in the '90s. he is going after people like papadopoulos and flynn. he thinks they're low life thugs like he used to prosecute back in d.c. i think he had a little sit-down with gates where gates said okay, i can give you information about manafort. mueller is like i got that case. that's easy to prove. that's a paper case. it's failure to report, money laundering. he's got that case. mueller says to flynn, mueller says to gates, i ...