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He left a cushy job at a firm making a lot of money to be a homicide prosecutor in d.c. in the '90s. he is going after people like papadopoulos and flynn. he thinks they're low life thugs like he used to prosecute back in d.c. i think he had a little sit-down with gates where gates said okay, i can give you information about manafort. mueller is like i got that case. that's easy to prove. that's a paper case. it's failure to report, money laundering. he's got that case. mueller says to flynn, mueller says to gates, i need more. what else you got? and again i think that's why we see this guilty...

Believes a person has fully cooperated. joyce, you hear those two bits of information and you think what about the mueller investigation? >> it looks like the investigation is moving ahead on target and on pace. the news about gates does point the direction of leading us to believe at least very serious negotiations about his cooperation and this makes a lot of sense. this is largely a paper case against him. doesn't look like the government will have a lot of trouble obtaining conviction on some if not all counts and so for gates to cooperate, he has a lot of potential benefit in terms of the...

Want that. things are unrelated until you find something that might relate they will. >> as we've said a number of times on the show, there isn't a people case. it is a paper case. and e-mail stands for evidence. and as anybody has seen all the president's men understands, follow the money. that's ultimately the oil that lubricates any ongoing criminal enterprise. so in this situation, the closer that the special counsel comes to the oval office, again, that's why people like steve bannon are so important. steve bannon was the president's person who brings down on john gotti. in a situation li...

President obstructed justice. i have a different take, i think monday was a devastating day for this white house. i think the scope and detail in thiz manafort and gates indictments were surprising even to those who followed this case intimately. it's what lawyers call a paper case, a case that could be proven with the documents and paul manafort is facing 15 years in prison. to the extent he knows something incriminating, that's a scary prospect and papadopoulos plea shows once again they were offered dirt on hillary clinton and now we know mueller is investigating up the chain to figure out ...

Where a great lawyer can break down a lying cop or a thieving snitch. in 38 years of practice, i've never seen any lawyer be able to break down an e-mail or a bank robber and get them to confess that they've got it wrong. >> you're saying this is a paper case, not a people case. and while you can find out in people and undermine them before a jury, when the paper is strong, that's much harder. i guess i got to ask you the question, then. do you think this is an even harder defense than that for tom delay? >> in delay, ari, we had a situation where basically nobody disagreed as to what tom did....