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Obviously come back, but in some cases, you never regain a normal sense and a normal balance. penn state's got to make a statement that this is tremendously important to us, we take it seriously. we want to start anew. we're going to develop a whole new culture. >> you know what's so hard, governor, and pat, and you're not part of this, pat, but governor rendell and i are part of it as pennsylvanians. it's so much good up against so much bad. it's just hard to deal with. graham spanier up there has done, as you said, done a wonderful job as president up there, with his music department, his fi...

Progress forward, past this, and look at what kind of good things can come out of this. they're unwilling to do that. if they were, you can find every person that has a fingerprint on this cover-up, they would find them and they would fire them. and that would be that. there would be no "we're going to put you on paid administrative leave." it would be, you knew this or you should have known this and you did nothing? you did not meet your moral obligations at all? go away. and until that happens, penn state is going to be looked at, almost as a love iaughingstock organization where they do not...

Safety, really, moral safety, physiological safety of people in your charge. >> it's absolutely true. it's that kind of circle the wagons and protect the institution or protect our guy. let me ask you a question, chris. did they protect jerry sandusky. if they had turned jerry s sandusky in in 2002, he would have a lot less criminal instances on his blotter. and he would have perhaps got an shorter jail sentence. right now if he's convicted, he may be in jail the rest of his life. did they help him? >> so are you with pat, pat mcdonna, who thinks they have to clean the slate? remove all vestig...