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Lie about this? he came and said things that clearly did not make him look good, and i wonder, was there a reason to lie? because it seems like with the president granting a number of high-profile pardons, this might not have come as a surprise if he solicited this. why would he lie, chairman? >> in dealing with people in my former life as an fbi guy, some people will lie for a whole host of purposes, including to get out of jail. so you have to be really careful about when they're in that mode of, i am trying to protect myself first and i know what you want. they'll be great ringmasters. i kn...

Does that change your opinion of him or his testimony? >> if michael cohen asked for a pardon, i do think that that is problematic because it casts doubt over the veracity of all of his testimony. >> do you agree with that, chairman? >> i do, and for this reason. he came under a cloud of suspicion. he had a pretty big hurdle to get over for the credibility piece that he would be telling the truth. in that open hearing, there was a lot of personal animous that came out in that hearing as well, right, which i think taints -- >> toward president trump? >> yes, toward president trump, and you have...