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Would be liable there. but the students are being punished solely because of their expression of these awful ideas, but, indeed expression of racist views, and that's something that the first amendment does not allow. >> what if those students are actually acting on their racist views? what if in fact there haven't been bids offered during the pledge process for african-americans interested in joining that fraternity? would that strengthen the hand of the university president in expelling them if that's what he chooses to do? >> well the university president actually stressed that it was the r...

The pledge process for african-americans interested in joining that fraternity? would that strengthen the hand of the university president in expelling them if that's what he chooses to do? >> well the university president actually stressed that it was the racist speech of the students that was the reason for the expulsion. that's not like there was fact finding that well there were particular students who let's say excluded by the fraternity and such. if indeed there was discrimination by the fraternity not speech but conduct, then indeed the kind of punishment that is normally mooepted out f...

Debate, we focus on words. in a lot of ways we're not really focused on the issue at hand, which is racism. do you think we sort of unduly pivot to focusing on the word instead of the concept? >> i think we started with coarse derogatory language by members of a fraternity at the university of oklahoma. it seemed to be a part of their pledge process and some deflected it by going to music and artistry and hip hop. the point you're making is yes, it is an expression if you will, of racist feelings. the word has, if you will, racist overtones. it is a symbol and a sign of