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The president of ukraine when he was a candidate, this was about 10, 15 years ago, they've tried -- successfully poisoned many dissidents but there still is a vibrant dissident community in russia. will it stay? will it make a difference? >> well, all it takes is -- we don't know how this whole thing is going to play itself out, but what alexei navalny who is in jail, now kara-murza is in jail, their calculation is that at some point putin is going to misstep. the whole country is going to rise up, there's going to be chaos and then there is going to be a need for a new leader. i can imagine i...

Like the baltics or poland, there's no better way to guarantee russia increases the forces on the periphery than go into ukraine. >> if they go into ukraine, it's a nightmare at home because suddenly you have massive troop movement into poland, massive troop movement into other nato countries that's getting closer and closer to the old soviet union. >> and finland is talking about possibly wanting nato if russian goes into ukraine. putin wants to redraw the security map of europe, he better be careful. he could face the worse strategic environment if russia ever faced if he goes ahead with thi...

They're creating an exit ramp if the russians want to take it. i think this is being well handled. at some point putin will have to decide, what does he want? >> putin is extraordinarily effective at trolling the united states, trolling the west. he did it, of course, in the 2016 campaign. he was on our front page of world newspapers over the next four years. he's once again seized the national spotlight. not bad for a country with about $2 trillion gdp. their gdp that's 1/10th of what the united states and european union is together. but it's one thing to troll the west for headlines, and it'...

A new german government, what better to learn about the new german government about what they do on sanctions or the nord stream 2 pipeline. >> same thing for joe biden. joe biden's been on the stage for a long time. he saw what happened in afghanistan. so push the new president, see what you're going to get from the new president. like you said, push the new leadership from germany, see what you're going to get from the new leadership in germany. test them out, push them. i'm not saying -- i'm not saying this is a good thing. i'm just saying for vladimir putin this is actually a calculated mo...

And has to do with deterrence and deterrence is about credible threats. putin has to see the pain is not worth taking to make the choice to go in there. so the question is are these sanctions tough enough, are some of the things that are happening of moving troops and things to that area something that scares him off and maybe makes him push away? so i think the administration is doing a good job of keeping the allies and europeans together on this. a number of countries are sending troops and things there. putin wants the u.s. out of europe. he wants to kill off nato. he wants vassell states ...