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>> robin, i keep coming back to this and mentioned a couple times, i'm fascinated how he began to see himself and it was critical for him to see -- start to see himself as an african first, not just as a member of his ethnic group in the area that he was born as a hossa but as an african and in that way was able to overcome efforts by the white regime because they wanted groups to be divided. they wanted didn't ethnic groups, zulus against hossas to divide and conquer and rule them. >> absolutely. he grew up as a proud timbu, so there was a subgroup he identified with but when he came to johan...

The first african elected but the first democratically elected president of south africa. that's important. democracy and justice ask truth made a big difference. >> robin, i keep coming back to this and mentioned a couple times, i'm fascinated how he began to see himself and it was critical for him to see -- start to see himself as an african first, not just as a member of his ethnic group in the area that he was born as a hossa but as an african and in that way was able to overcome efforts by the white regime because they wanted groups to be divided. they wanted didn't ethnic groups, zulus a...