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There shouldn't be this back-channel way of getting -- outside of official channels. so i think that's -- when you step back, it was this setup that was never going to end well when you have a situation when he was in this position to offer access to the president directly. >> seems here, ryan, going back to the web, if you will, that we had up on the screen of americans and ukrainians with rudy giuliani in the very middle of all of that, this is only what we know in terms of who rudy giuliani is and the connections that he was making. >> yeah. i mean, it has a swampy look to it and that's som...

Way to go around the system, that's a real problem. if that was a different country, america would see that as an issue. so i think that's -- when you step back, it was this setup that was never going to end well when he was in this position to offer access to the president directly. >> seems here, ryan, going back to the web, if you will, that we had up on the screen of americans and ukrainians with rudy giuliani in the very middle of all of that, this is only what we know in terms of who rudy giuliani is and the connections that he was making. >> yeah. i mean, it has a swampy look to it and ...