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for a long time. he uses maybe one part of his leadership. he was up one day -- then the other day, pushback on somebody else. kind of the classic divide and rule. i think prigozhin was a handy tool for him to put pressure on shrug you, maybe you blame shrug you or others for what was happening. but it is obviously gunning out of control. he thought he could control, now he can't. >> how does this and do you think? >> like i said, i think in the short term he will be able to squash this. but in the long term, dictators, it's when that shrink in the armor shows that things start to ch...

The putin machine and have the western banks, we would not be here today. >> the thing is, i mean, we don't have to speculate about what putin is capable of. he did it to aleppo. levelled aleppo. he did it in chechnya, brutal. >> that's how he came to power. >> exactly. the idea that -- i do wonder if the ability of -- including western media to look away at those conflicts made him feel okay, i can get away with brutality. i'm still surprised he thought in his mind that he could get away with doing this to ukraine. it seemed insane to think he would do it but he's done it. >> on the other han...

Or is something being fed to him with the intent of sort of shaping his conduct, shaping his words and shaping his actions? these are incredibly important questions. it doesn't mean you and i will ever know the answer to it, but these are incredibly important questions. >> okay. sometimes things happen that make me hit pause and rip up the script and one just did, so bear with me. i want to dig into this with you, michael mcfaul. what has he done -- what other possible explanation is there for towieing -- it is not even modern russia, it is the soviet line. this was part of the putin machine, ...

Iraq, syria and vietnam. stupid and not because he is bad businessman, you know? florida representative mario but because this machine and the diaz balart, one of many voices putin machine work together and firing back on twitter saying destroy his business including i've always wanted to travel to banks and including his business a corrupt country that is not a in aircraft and everywhere. free democracy and now castro's lap dog won't let me. putin messaged main guy. if you are business, forget all this coming weeks after president maduro accused the about politics. i am in politics not you. u...

I think he'll get a pretty strong united front in favor of what ambassador taylor was just talking about, which is an escalating set of sanctions against this act of aggression. >> well, let's still denying those are russian troops that he might have to order back to their bar racks. so it seems like we're a few steps away from that. former ambassador william taylor and charles kupchan. thank you very much for your time on this important story. >> thank you. coming up, what are the russian people thinking about the situation in ukraine? and how do we find out what the russian people are real...