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I don't think most people trace jared's involvement in the comey matter. because absent the comey matter, jeff sessions is still called mr. attorney general, there's no mueller and this is a different presidency. >> entirely correct. i think this is probably the biggest revelation of the book actually. at the time when the president fired james comey, it was reported that jared kushner had just supported the decision. that's not what my reporting shows. and what actually happened is that jared, as you say, realized that the press had learned that he had these meetings with russian ambassador, ...

Our reporting shows, we're getting different kinds of stories about what actually occurred and when it occurred. cohen, we have learned, told congress over the past week, and we've confirmed this, that his attorney had a discussion about pardons with two of trump's lawyers. and cohen himself, we've also learned, has told the congressional committee that he spoke directly to one of trump's lawyers, jay sekulow, about a pardon, although jay sekulow denies this. so the crux of the matter is, was michael cohen lying to the committee or was he not? and his attorney lanny davis is saying you have to...

Think? >> well, again, we're not asking these questions because of palace intrigue. i mean, of course, we expect there's going to be discord in any office. we're asking that question, because if the president lashed out after michael cohen was arrested and he's trying to put in a different investigator to oversee that investigation, he's abusing his power. so we have to make sure that the people know the stakes here. that this isn't just some interest in a fight between two people. but what "the new york times" reporting shows, with multiple witnesses now and the mccabe book out, from mccabe t...

That this isn't just some interest in a fight between two people. but what "the new york times" reporting shows, with multiple witnesses now and the mccabe book out, from mccabe to comey to cohen, it doesn't matter what the vantage point is, when you look at the scene of this crime, it's pretty clear that the president is an obstructer, he's someone who tampers with witnesses, he's someone who's not honest with the american people. doesn't matter who the perspective comes from, they all tell the same thing. >> why not just answer "yes" or "no"? why not just say, no, he didn't. >> someone who h...

And many, many work for me now, but thousands, they're incredible people. >> so, of course, first of all that claim as your reporting shows, not the case. but obviously the issue here is the hypocrisy considering the policies he's pushing on one hand and his behavior on the other. >> that's right. what trump said throughout the campaign and particularly last month during the shutdown is immigration is an issue of crime, all of these other things, it's a moral issue letting immigrants into this country, we want to be nice to them but if we let them in, it drives down wages from americans and ta...