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I guess we'll never learn for sure? >> they had all kinds of information that backed up what the allegations were, so the fact that rick gates was a criminal himself didn't sway the jury and he basically walked away. this is going to be an easy, factual thing to lay down unlike the campaign finance which the argument has been it's a squishy crime, it's not a real crime. this idea of collusion, corruption, quid pro quos. if they have e-mails that make these requests, that's going to be tough, i think, for republicans and democrats both to sidestep. >> you just had bill barr, the nominee for the...

Question. >> the president personally directed his long-time attorney michael cohen to lie to congress about negotiations involving the trump tower. is that true or false? >> yes, but the president's attorney also addressed this. i'm not going to give any credence or credibility to michael cohen. >> with me today to share their approximate insights, cnn's shimon prokupecz and a member of the white house independent counsel. let's start with you, shimon, because you spent months and months and months on this investigation. the key one being they said they have documents to back this up. it does...