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- i believe that he always needs to define himself through anatomy. right? so, catholic school he was good and there were other kids who were bad. and then he's a prosecutor and he's gonna lock up the bad guys. and then he's mayor and he's gonna lock up the squeegee guys and jaywalkers, and now it's biden. - rudy starts kind of from what i can best say, fancying himself as like the new roger stone. opposition research is as old as the game of politics, but it's the lengths he went to. this is the former mayor of new york, this rah-rah pro-america kind of guy who was looking for dirty tricks to...

To. >> john: that's not going to end well. katie pavlich, great to see you. it's been a while. what katie was saying about rudy giuliani, he thought if you get rid of the squeegee guys, and urinating in public, that the quality of life gets better and the big crimes take care of themselves. there is some old new york city file of the squeegee guys and now throwing it out the window, saying we are not going to prosecute the little crimes, we are going to let the big criminals go. and what's the effect of that going to be? >> sandra: it stuck with me, a great conversation with katie, but going b...

Minor violations. and you recall mayor giuliani actually stopped the squeegee guys when people were entering the city by charging them with very minor crime which is jaywalking. but that stopped that activity. so i believe that you cannot allow minor violations. look, you don't violate people's constitutional rights, that's wrong. but you also must enforce the law, and i think people want that. eric: do you see that happening now in your state? camden, for example, revamped its police department. newark, they're putting more cops on the street, and they reallocated some money, but they didn't ...

There during the riots when they had to revamp the entire police force and got rid of manage. most people say the lapd is more respected now and more effective. does new york and los angeles leave clues? >> that's the old expression copy genius don't invented mediocrity. i was a police officer when rudy giuliani came in with bill bratton, brian. you probably remember this as well. broken windows. what is broken windows? you see a broken window you fix it you don't wait for the building to fall down. in other words you see a guy jump in a turnstile get on a train free in new york. they used to ...