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Ceiling? >> we as a caucus along with senate counterparts will meet and discuss what it is we want out of the debt limit. we don't want nothing out of this debt limit. we will decide what it is we can accomplish out of this fight. one of the problems or concerned i have with the debt limit is we don't know when it's going to hit. jack lew, the treasury secretary, has ultimate discretion on when this could occur. so the timing of this is very much in doubt. >> did the debt limit is not raised, experts project that the government could default between march and june which also happens to be the ...

David corn and ryan grim. both are msnbc contributors. let's start david and then go to ryan. this is an interesting combination. we think this is going to be a smooth season getting through the holidays. but they're already lining up for the gun fight at the ok corral, if you will. sometimes between march and spring, they can shut down the american economy. and these guys say they don't want to do it. then they say we're going to threaten to do it. mitch mcconnell is worried about being defeated. thad cochran is worried about getting defeated. shutdown which means default. >> it kind of remin...