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Through the entire system so that no—one can say, "oh, he is there because of the rooney rule," as they have in nfl, or, "he's there because of the quota system." that doesn't help anyone. that just causes friction. as makhaya ntini said, he was never invited to a senior meeting in that team because all the white cricketers figure he's — sorry — he's only there because they put him there, not because he deserves to be there. even with his 300 wickets. that doesn't help anything. and sometimes, stephen, you find people being elevated into positions that they cannot handle, they cannot man...

I want to talk to you a little bit about your memories of your playing career, because you were part of one of the greatest test teams of all—time, that west indies team of the mid—19705. you came to england in 1976 on tour, and there was real tension around that tour, particularly because the captain of england, who actually grew up in south africa, tony greig, said that he wanted to make you, as a team, the west indies team, grovel. now, that was an explosive word. did you feel an undercurrent of racism? i personally did, and i know a lot of the teams certainly did as well. tony greig be...

That doesn't help anything. and sometimes, you find people being elevated into positions that they cannot handle, they cannot manage those positions. i want to talk to you a little bit about your memories of your playing career, cos you were part of one of the greatest test teams of all—time, that west indies team of the mid—19705. you came to england in 1976 on tour, and there was real tension around that tour, particularly because the captain of england, who actually grew up in south africa, tony greig, said that he wanted to make you, as a team, the west indies team, grovel. now, that w...