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An honorable guy and once he puts his hand on that bible, he will be telling the truth so help him god. >> you clashed a bit with cipollone in the white house. you guys did overlap. what's changed, if anything, that gives you a higher estimation of mr. cipollone now? >> nothing. that hasn't changed. i always held pat at high esteem in terms of integrity. we just disagreed on policy, disagreed on procedure, disagreed on how to handle the impeachment. i didn't think he was a dishonorable person. you have those discussions in every white house. it's not sitting around singing kumbaya. my opinion ...

The former president donald trump and first lady, thank you so much for being here with us tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> so let's start there what you make of the dysfunction that mick mulvaney described under mark meadows? >> i left for that very reason because of mark meadows so what he had to say was correct and it does seem that towards the end there perhaps mark was more disengaged than usual and allowed some pretty bad at is to surround the president. >> do you agree with mick mulvaney's assessment of who is to be believed in the context of these hearings he suggested he would ...

From president george w. bush and all of that adds up to what makes his testimony so damning tonight. manu raju is out front live on capitol hill. manu, it took him an hour to read these 15 pages and he submitted to nine hours of questions. what more are you learning about what he said? >> reporter: the democrats and republicans are asking him a lot about the essence of what he laid out in this 15-page testimony and more details about exactly what he said and i'm told from various sources that he had a lot of details and he'd been able to corroborate some of this information by the notes that ...

Hide? why is he having this meandering run? they thought the mueller investigation was going to be the silver bullet. they thought the whistle-blower was going to be the silver bullet. >> laura: do you notice how this stuff comes up? well, bolton says that rudy says this and that, he is running renegade and he's wrecking everything. but it's all these technical little leaks, and what are you guys to do, the leaks, you complain about the process? >> i think what they are doing, it's the same thing why your viewers are so frustrated as they watch this. every day is groundhog day. a new leak, and...

You at harvard law school. >> perjury trap, it's a phrase people throw around. i think it is literally a meaningless phrase because perjury and perjury. and this idea the president talked about it, if you say it was a sunny day and it was cloudy, they're going to charge you with perjury, of course not. perjury has to be a substantive statement that is relevant to a central issue in that case and it has ton an intentional falsehood, not a mistake. just because your testimony conflicts with another person, that doesn't mean either one of you is lying. perjury is about intentional lying, and it i...