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And joy, there seems to be when you listen in the testimony in the hearings a real carefulness when he's threading the needle of illegalities with gordon sondland, for example, never saying exactly the words yes, this is -- i want them to do this. and then specifically according to sondland saying the words there is no quid pro quo, which he seemed to be reading off a cue card some lawyer had just given him because the whistle-blower had already blown the whistle. there seems to be a real conscious instance about him. >> absolutely. and michael cohen said the exact same thing. when he wants yo...

So much so far. >> it's such an interesting point. there is so much information. wupt r if you wa if you want to really geek out and get into, it's incredibly appealing. but if you don't, there are so many facts and how do you make sense of it yourself? how do the american people do that? do democrats have a plan for threading together that narrative, and do they think it's going to matter? >> they kind of have to put a bow on everything we've learned from these democratic hearings, and democrats may think they won the battle but they have yet to win the war. everything went right for democrat...

>> you will impeach a president for asking for a favor that didn't happen and giving money and it wasn't withheld? i don't know what she would impeach him on. and look, nora. impeachment is like the death penalty for public officials. when you look at the transcript, there is nothing in that transcript that warrants the death penalty for the president. >> dana: what do you think about that in terms of threading the needle? >> i think that will resonate with people who don't agree, and that's a level of impeachable offense. nikki haley sort of concede some ground which is ultimately meaning not...

Whistle-blower initial complaint described a sandwich and the president asking for and getting a sandwich. multiple witness testimony behind closed doors as revealed in these transcripts and in the reporting that our team on capitol hill, jeff bennett and others have done described a sandwich. gordon sondland said, i gave him a piece of meat between two pieces of bread. it almost doesn't matter. the facts are going to be very difficult to dispute particularly now that gordon sondland who by the way donated money to the president's campaign once, somebody who was picked by trump administration ...

Deal, however imperfect, willing to go back to parliament and shows through test votes he has some kind of majority for his deal and then he's been willing to say, look, let's take it to the voters. that's leadership and he's getting some of a dividend for that would you agree or not? >> no, i think that that is definitely making a big difference here is that style. one of the big problems that theresa may had during her tenure as prime minister is she was trying to run her government in a very consensus-driven approach and i think that a big problem with brexit is that it was difficult for he...