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This goes, i think, very much to the heart of what the special counsel's office is investigating. and joining us now, glen kushner, former assistant u.s. attorney and tim o'bryan is with us, the author of the book trump nation. he is also an msnbc contributor and glen, we really need you know because we're taking, we're taking a little piece of a transcript, people are kind of running with this that this is a huge little bomb that's in the middle of this thing. what do you make of it? >> sometimes you accidently blurt something out and it's like, you know, i didn't mean to say it but i meant w...

Kushner, former assistant u.s. attorney and tim o'bryan is with us, the author of the book trump nation. he is also an msnbc contributor and glen, we really need you know because we're taking, we're taking a little piece of a transcript, people are kind of running with this that this is a huge little bomb that's in the middle of this thing. what do you make of it? >> sometimes you accidently blurt something out and it's like, you know, i didn't mean to say it but i meant what i said. >> they have the ability to kind of restrict our access to some of the information in here. they can refadakref...

Dancing around on the fringes on each one of these other indictments and i'll tell you, i will be shocked if we don't see sometime fairly soon a large needy conspiracy to defraud the united states indictment returned by bob mueller. >> also in this, tim, is the prosecutor talking about the possibility of manafort angling for a pardon, one talking about why is he not accurately and honestly cooperating with prosecutors and prosecutors saying it could be what he thinks is more important is to angle for the pardon. >> given how far down the road he's gone at blowing up his relationships with muel...

Goes right to the heart of what the special counsel is investigating, i mean, that's actually a big ticket admission because they were debating about the import of manafort's lie about his on going communications with him after manafort had been charged criminally. that's pretty mind blowing. i dealt with a lot of cooperating witnesses over the years. manafort is the worst ocho c cooperating witness ever but there was something so desperately important to manafort and by extension, i'm sure others who might be involveed to linvolv involved to lie to the special counsel even after he's a co- co...

Sometime fair lly soon a large need ty conspiracy to defraud t united states indictment returned by bob mueller. >> also in this, tim, is the prosecutor talking about the possibility of manafort angling for a pardon, one talking about why is he not accurately and honestly cooperating with prosecutors and prosecutors saying it could be what he thinks is more important is to angle for the pardon. >> given how far down the road he's gone at blowing up his relationships with mueller's team and essentially the whole cooperation agreement, at this point about the only thing he can hope for is a pard...