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Country who are earning enough money and they're hurting, so you have to have, you know, them have what i would call income sufficiency and one of the ways of having that transfer is to have people working as opposed to just a transfer payment and to have those people working make a lot more money and that's a good thing for the country. >> so a lot of people look at business and say, look, everyone is trying to be successful. some people manage to be successful. they get lucky and then they think that their world view is the blessed one. what do you think? how much of what -- you have achieve...

The senate's is larger than the house but not as large as rubio wants. he wants it to be refundable. that means that it goes to people who -- a tax credit that goes to people who don't any tax. it's a transfer payment, a welfare payment, if you will, of support for a poor family that doesn't pay any income taxes. and that's what all of these issues are tied up with. if you move the dial on one of them, it affects the amount of money that is available for doing other things. it's a very complicated. you have to get good faith to get resolved. >> bill: one thing, cut spending. you can get around...

Laffer says this won't solve anything. why not? >> well, this is typical of president obama. but it's a subsidy, a transfer payment, a raises taxes and will slow economic growth. what you really want to do is not lower the numerator, ie the amount of debt. what you want to raise is the amount of income. to reduce the debt burden by creating jobs and higher wages, that is what we all want. and that's what obama is not willing to do. this problem has gotten so huge because the drop in employment is so large and a lot of these people don't have job, a lot of the people don't expect to work. they ...

>> in the makers versus takers argument, it's become a political -- a political -- point. listen to this, ron. >> government keeps growing and growing and growing, and when it grows, that means there are more people in the wagon and less people pulling the wagon. >> you have an eminent economist here on my right saying it's nuts to pull back some of the stuff. you have politicians on the right saying, this is makers and takers. we need more people pulling the wagon, not in the wagon. >> yeah. i think the core animating drive for the tea party and the tea party movement is not so much the overa...

It is corrupt because you've got a lot of people who are not reporting off the books income but still getting a check. >>gretchen: you're not being mean to poor people? >> i am being mean to poor people. frankly i am because this is a direct transfer payment from this group of people who pay taxes to this group of people who never paid a dime in their lives but they get a check from the government. >>gretchen: that is not their fault. >>steve: you may call it corrupt but that's the deal. if it's so complex, why are we overpaying? >> because it is corrupt? >>steve: i heard that part. >>steve: a...