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I think that jeffrey and carl are absolutely right. there's going to be a big effort to flip whoever it is whose indicted. >> but jeff tu bin, if it is, you know, some past crime, financial crime from years ago, is it -- you know, david is saying, you know, someone at the white house will say, look, that's nothing about collusion. this is reaching back in history years. is it possible those kind of charges are brought to your point, in order to get them to flip and kind of a smaller fish, charging them with something from the past to get them to flip on what they may know? >> right. people fli...

Which was associated with the russian government in releasing emails. don't prove imi'any illegality, in does that. >> but in terms of breaking laws. >> this is one of the key things about collusion investigation. it's not clear what federal crimes might be committed. it could be aiding and abetting hacking. it could be some sort of money laundering. but collusion itself is a pejorative word but no crime in the federal code called collusion. >> okay. hang with me. i have two more voices. we have former adviser to bob mueller special counsel here in this investigation. and so i know you've all ...