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And expand presidential power beyond what it's ever happened in the past. he was almost for that on the campaign trail before trump was for it. but to your point that you started with, republicans have historically been for smaller government, less role of government in peoples lives. and it is the opposite right now. what we are talking about right now is centralizing power in a way that will allow them to have greater control over everybody's lives. >> by the way, again, for people who have not followed closely in the past, when i get the congress, we all said, let's take as much money, powe...

Talked about, the twilight of democracy, where loyalty replaces competence. whether you're talking about it in the media sphere, where you intimidate and get rid of media opponents. what about, again, the fcc, donald trump having the sole power to decide whether this network or other networks he doesn't like actually are on the air or not? that's what we're talking about here. talk about the danger, the level of danger to american democracy. >> well, if you love mussolini, you will love what donald trump is talking about for 2025. mussolini followed the unitarian executive theory, too, which m...

Security and intelligence analyst, and staff writer at "the atlantic," anne applebaum. joe, it is interesting. >> yeah. >> it seems a lot of the reporting from "the new york times" is, quite frankly, frightening, but i also could see donald trump taking that and turning it into a win as he appeals to his followers. >> well, we had molly jong-fast last night on the special saying the trump team loved "the new york times" article, which tells you all you need to know about the trump team. loved being portrayed as mussolini type, wanna-be-fascist. anne applebaum, i wondered if you got any royalti...

>> so, i mean, that is just ridiculous that mr. riggleman would woulthat hd forward with t argument. >> i will tell you this. gary shapley , 14 year veteran, y handled the biggest tax fraud cases, international fraud cases. he sure seems credible to me. go >> are you going to take his word of the word of rigell or whoever else is talking? now, congressman colmer, the legal man, also commented on the irs whistleblower. >> seems like a lot of the other so-called whistleblowers, i don't know. od you want to define them as that. it seems like they're always wrong either. missin you know, witnesses...

Okay to say anything and everything. you're right. it's just a recommendation, but more often than not the recommendations are accepted. i think giuliani's law license to practice in d.c. is about to be pulled from him. you know, he's -- the twilight of his career has been a very odd phase. i don't know if he needs on wants to practice anymore, but definitely all these lawyers who are the final circle around trump, they face not just criminal possibilities but also losing their livelihood and that's true of sydney pould and jenna ellis so they've got double trouble. >> i should not giuliani sp...