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Renewables is a pretty big expansion of natural gas. i'm sure people had told me that, and i didn't believe them. >> we're building these all over the country, and one of the questions we ask, we need about 3,000 foot in altitude, we need flat land, we need 300 days sunlight and near a gas pipe. because for all of these big utility scale power plants, whether it's wind or solar, everybody is looking at gas as the supplementary fuel. but the plants that we're building, the wind plants and solar plants, are gas plants. >> i end up feeling like a sucker. i ended up feeling like i was a sucker. th...

It's not just -- >> what do you mean by that? >> pipelines and electricity transmission lines lead to coal plants where there's the most wind and solar. you don't have transmission lines built there. it's not a matter of plucking one piece of a system out and putting a new piece in. you talk about building a whole new system, and it's very hard to sort of compare unit costs when you're talking about that. you're talking about a more holistic view of things. >> i think it's important to point out that with the wind industry we have the production tax credit, which is a credit. it's not a subsid...