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And other places, what do you think about how you could beat them? >> you beat hillary because i think she's really compartmentalized. i don't think she thinks in terms -- she doesn't have a great vision. that's why obama beat her. because it's about vision. remember i used to talk about bush, it's the vision thing. i don't think she has a vision. think it's too much politically calculated. if we come out with somebody that's a divider, you can't win ohio. if you don't win ohio, you can't be president, it's not that complicated. >> i'm going to exercise my right to have one more question. tell...

Father's toughness consistently. he thought he was a loyal appointee. nixon once said to george schultz, bush takes our line beautifully. but that was his job. his -- you know, he served in this nonexecutive jobs where, and one of the reasons i think he might have had a little bit of trouble articulating the vision thing later is he was never in an executive job where you had to do it, so you were, in fact, encouraged to subsum because you were encouraging the president of the united states. your dad said in diaries, he said it to me that he thought that some of the beginning of the sense that...

Change once i start to talk to people who know what i'm talking about and change my mind. is that enough? >> it's a reasonable thing to say if you're not a politician. but i think it really sort of spotlights the fact you have this dual republican primary going on. you've got the outsiders and the insiders. the outsiders can fall back on that and say, well, i'm not really a politician. >> but is that a leadership vision thing? >> i think it's a convenient excuse that professional politicians never try -- or try never to resort to. what a professional politician will say, i thought this through...

Of state is running. so that's my advice to candidates to refocus the debate here. >> but the republicans ran that campaign in 2012 and look where that landed them. i think going back to the vision thing, what are you going to do differently? how are you going to pay for the programs that you are talking about, when mr. trump mentioned the voter security and building a wall and saying mexico will pay for it? so i think this debate is crucial, in sizing up not just who's leading the polls, but whether or not they have ideas that will take the country in a different direction in the 21st century...

Doctrine, if you will, a notion of what he's going to try to do the next two years of his administration? >> you know, i'm not going to sit here and say it was the best speech ever, chris. there were things to criticize about it. yeah, i would say there's a doctrine and the doctrine is keeping us out of unnecessary war. the doctrine is avoiding conflict where he can. the man inherited two wars, one of them completely unnecessary, and he also inherited the gearing up to another war with iran. and he has so far averted that disaster diplomatically and other ways. so i hear an overarching theme, ...