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Washington, the union wouldn't have stayed. fdr is told somehow that the japanese-americans will be coming in from california to detroit to take over the country. but as thurgood marshall, the supreme court justice once said, those are the moments when civil liberties matter the most and you have to be careful. all those presidents suffer in history. you have to be careful. all of those presidents suffer in history. eleanor roosevelt said about the incarceration of japanese americans and fdr's failure to bring in more jewish settlers would be a scar and she knew that. usually, you don't have t...

As it is, that still becomes an act that has to be judged. it doesn't mean -- biographers will shadow it, but it's -- >> the people on -- the people on that mountain now, should thomas jefferson be there, slave holder? had a long-time sexual relationship with a woman he owned. >> george washington. >> should george washington, a slave owner. should abraham lincoln who said if i can save the union and preserve slavery, i would do it but i can't so i'll free the slaves. none of these -- none of these people is perfect. at all. and in fact, the point of having these conversations, i think, is to ...

So much? >> it turned lee's army back, ended the invasion of the north and was the turning point of the war. at that point, though it was going to be difficult and bloody and the wilderness campaign and many, many lives would be lost, in historical perspective that was the end -- the beginning of the end as churchhill might say of the war. and my sense, too, it resonates not only because of what happened there militarily in 1963 but because of the words spoken there. what abraham lincoln did at that battlefield was to redefine the country, rededicate it as he put it, to a jeffersonian principl...

Congress, presidency without purpose and then the civil war comes along. i remember jfk saying at one time, could i be a great -- i don't remember but said to have said can i be a great president without a war. clinton wondered the same thing. a war can undo you as with lbj or offer you that chance to make the country come together. certain sense, bush had that chance at 9/11 could he have summoned the country to greatness at that point which did not happen. >> and evan, here's another example of dwight eisenhower, possibly not getting his due, because he avoided war and one of the most extrao...

You have to be careful. all those presidents suffer in history. eleanor roosevelt said about the incarceration of the japanese-americans and fdr's failure to bring more jewish refugees into the country before hitler closed the door forever those were his scars. i think lincoln if he came back now would know his scar he wished he hadn't had to do the habeas corpus. usually you don't have to do those things but this is your point, war gross on itself and you do everything you need to. it's a sad, dark chapter. >> the human element, jefferson used this when he talked about buying louisiana which ...