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And then i think in july is when he went on george stephanopoulos and said i'm going to protect my family and i'm -- they are the ones i'm loyal to. by that time, the discussions were obviously over. and -- go ahead. >> but why wouldn't michael cohen's view of protecting his family include getting a pardon from the president? >> well, i mean, what we're reporting is that he was largely rebuffed or there wasn't immediate commitment made in the conversations between his lawyer steven ryan and the president's lawyers that, you know, as you noted, the most possibility was held up by rudy giuliani ...

President probably about mayish and then i think in july is when he went on george stephanopoulos and said i'm going to protect my family and i'm -- they are the ones i'm loyal to. by that time, the discussions were obviously over. and -- go ahead. >> but why wouldn't michael cohen's view of protecting his family include getting a pardon from the president? >> well, i mean, what we're reporting is that he was largely rebuffed or there wasn't immediate commitment made in the conversations between his lawyer steven ryan and the president's lawyers that, you know, as you noted, the most possibili...