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Retrospective conversation about nato, remembering things that weren't set at the time and trying to bring this into the conversation, is really just a way of manufacturing an excuse. putin has wanted to occupy ukraine and a story ukraine and democracy since 2013. that is what is going on here. nato is a secondary issue. >> we do not do justice to the amount of research and time that you've done on this, but i appreciate the time that you've given us tonight and i would recommend that our viewers follow your writings. staff writer at the atlantic, we appreciate your time tonight, we'll have mo...

About him being a nato it's about ukraine being a sovereign democracy, it doesn't want to be part of the russian empire. and who's democracy challenges the idea of -- a cause if ukraine can be a successful democracy and maybe some day it will be that is a challenge to putin system. if his argument is i am the only -- system like mine can run russia. ukraine's close to russia, working geographically and culture culturally if ukraine can be a democracy and russia says while we can have that is. well the use of nato as a retrospective conversation about nato, remembering things that weren't set a...

Reporting. this isn't some outside group coming in. this is the inspector general? >> that's right. it's their inspector general. every governmental agency has an inspector general that operates independently but they have full access to the data of that agency. to have your own inspector general come out with a report like this really shows that through an independent assessment with full access there were major problems here. and the big takeaway in this report is that they weren't set up from the beginning, much like the travel ban. this was a policy that was pushed down from political leve...

At the aclu. so jeff merkley going to texas this weekend put a spotlight on this because we don't know how these kids are being held, the circumstances which they're being held and whether the families are being separated permanently, do you know? >> it can go on for months and months at a time. testimony thi the ultimate thing is it's not the conditions. th they're doing the best they can but they weren't set up to deal with little kids. the real damage is the separation themselves. we put in medical testimony when a child is ripped away from their parent, that's the damage. the damage is goi...

At the aclu. so jeff merkley going to texas this weekend put a spotlight on this because we don't know how these kids are being held, the circumstances which they're being held and whether the lies are being separated permanently, do you know? >> they are being separated, and it's going on for months and months and month. the ultimate thing is not the conditions. they're doing the best they can but they weren't set up to deal with hundreds and hundreds of little kids. they're doing what they can do. the real damage is coming from the separation themselves. we put in medical testimony when a ch...