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From non-appearance or non-testimony but, i think bannon is up to his eyeballs. i think he's a vital witness. i think he could lead to trump or those closest to trump and i do believe that the indications are that trump is much more involved in this whole thing than we think he was. >> do you think this committee will ultimately get access to the documents and testimony they want and if so, by the time the next election rolls around? every cynic in washington is just shaking their heads and saying no. >> well, it's a good question. trump has been as good a president as any of is kate and delay...

Weak enforcement powers. they knew they learned from the court of appeals in the mcgann case the court would rule they don't have statutory bases in the house. the senate does. so they have no civil remedy. their criminal remedy is totally in the des ciscretion of the department of justice and whether bannon's activity rises to criminal activity is interesting. he's working on the advice of counsel. it's pretty hard to say that's a criminal act when you're working on the advice of counsel unless they're conspireing to somehow arrive the senate or house his presence before january 6th committee...

Trumpism. but trumpism, in its own way, doesn't exist and it is bannonism. so you know, trump is on message some of the times, many times completely off message. >> do you think that bannon is going on the record so much, including with you, because you he now think donald trump just isn't useful to advancing his agenda? if that's the case, is anything he says particularly necessarily truth worthy? >> i think that that's probably not true, he still goes back and forth between thinking donald trump is useful, donald trump is his vessel. there's as series of reachouts from the white house to ban...

Group aimed at helping republicans keep control of the house by framing the midterms as a vote on impeachment. here's what he told msnbc's ari melber in an exclusive interview airing tonight. >> this is an up or down vote on president trump. this will come as a referendum on him. he permeates the entire political culture. i think those around him that are telling him that, hey, it's okay to lose the house, you can work with the democrats and you can run against a democratic house in 2020 is bad advice. >> yesterday when i asked former trump political advisor sam nunberg who's part of bannon's ...

Mueller's strategy? >> robert mueller is moving ahead inexorably, meticulously, methodically, with this investigation. this subpoena indicates he will leave no stone unturned. he will not tolerate defiance or noncooperation with his investigation. and the grand jury is considering evidence that will lead to additional indictments and criminal charges. whether bannon is cooperating and simply wants a subpoena as cover so he can tell the president he had no noischoice, genuinely is refusing to answer questions. >> behind closed doors at the house intelligence committee, he's still apparently ins...