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I actually pulled the numbers. so in 1984, the head of the uaw representing, obviously, auto workers in lansing, michigan, said, "we don't look at automation as job welimination," basically what you just said. "we look at it as a way of making cars much higher quality." lansing represented 14,500 workers.re now a little more than 5,000 inm lansing.ot other factors intervened, trade was one of them. automation was the main one. so actually, a lot of those workers didn't get better jobs, as you well know. so why should would he be as hopeful as you are? >> no. you just changed what i said. that ...

Controllers, we're furloughing, laying people off, which will lead to all kinds of aircraft delays. this government is a complete mismatch. on one hand we're overpaying over here. on the other hand, we're basically telling people to stay home when traveling public is hurting. martha: so how does a sweet deal like this happen? >> largely, i think it is the loopholes where you hire consultants. the department of energy has a 100,000 people that it hires through consultants. they go through the, they don't go through the normal civil service procedure. i think clearly you should have either a sma...