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But it also strikes me someone like mick mulvaney, who wrote this budget by all appearances, genuinely believes in what he's doing. i mean the republicans who are proposing this, it is not politically popular, and it just seems to me they have affirmatively chosen this because they genuinely believe in the project they are engaged in. >> well, i wouldn't go so -- the answer is yes and no. they believe in it, but it doesn't hurt that the koch brothers, over many, many years, have spent hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars propping up and creating think tanks and all kinds of so-called n...

Education, health care for working families. >> i want to ask you about, you say the koch brothers and obviously they sort of funded a huge part of this movement, produced these kind of ideas and also politicians individually. but it also strikes me someone like mick mulvaney, who wrote this budget by all appearances, genuinely believes in what he's doing. i mean the republicans who are proposing this, it is not politically popular, and it just seems to me they have affirmatively chosen this because they genuinely believe in the project they are engaged in. >> well, i wouldn't go so -- the ans...