Its almost 2 years since more than 700000 ranger fled a military crackdown in me and since then theyve been crammed into squalid camps in bangladesh but mammals government is under pressure to take them back so what are they offering and is it enough this is inside story. Hello and welcome to the program on Martine Dennis the range of people have been called the most persecuted minority in the world me a mob doesnt even recognize this mainly muslim ethnic group as citizens and in 2017 it began a crackdown after attacks on its army by some ranger that the un labeled what followed a textbook example of ethnic cleansing soldiers were accused of killing and raping ranger and destroying their villages will then 700000 of them managed to escape to bangladesh saying they wouldnt return until miriam guarantees a safety and gives them citizenship a government delegation has spent 2 days trying to convince them to leave the Worlds Largest refugee camp and to go home to record state from where they fled 2 years ago. At least those who live in for 3 generations they are entitled to apply for the what we call naturalized citizen once parents apply for their natural citizenship. Sons and daughters their offspring are entitled to apply for their citizenship so we are trying to explain to them what are the possibility of citizenship so of course according to the law it may not be entitled for the full fledged citizenship but they are entitled to naturalized citizenship and eventually their sons and daughters and grandsons and daughters will be entitled for the citizenship full fledged citizenship foundering. Definitely will not be consider it as an issue for us because well be granting them as an nationality of myanmar and then eventually we will be providing them with the id cards. All right lets introduce our guests now in dhaka in bangladesh we have ranger recession and writer. In ny fiddle in mia ma via skype we have Phil Robertson Deputy Director of the Asia Division that Human Rights Watch and from london we have ronan levy visiting scholar at the International State Crime Initiative at Queen Mary University of london welcome to you all thought i want to ask you 1st. From what you heard from that senior Government Official whos currently in coaxes bizarre trying to persuade the range of refugees to go back home from what you heard did that fill you with confidence does that make you think that you would like to go back home to me a mile. Around to say that theyre not coming to come. Theyve. Theyre coming to in this interview which is number one number 2 i thing there gentleman did not read the 982 citizenship law in 9 days as it did to sit in a law to read underage and were automatic became the citizen full citizen of the country because i want is a. Naturalized citizen and there are certain jenners i know will be automatic full fledged agency but hes now hes saying that that he didnt originally only never lie citizens that is dave brown with the 982 cities and law and hes. Ok his isp is ok im on santa sorry coming to coming to you you know i am i not come back to you in just just a moment lets now go to to Phil Robertson whos in one of the capital of me and ma from what youve heard is there anything new in what the government is offering to the ranger on clearly things that theres not much involved until that compass weighed people back. They have a very hard road to hold to get these people to go back because theres no trust whatsoever. Of these promises that the myanmar Government Officials are making to those people in the camps the reality is that people want to return and have citizenship guaranteed they have heard these promises theyve heard that they can go through these procedures the 1900 to citizenship law is something that has been on the books and basically been discriminatory and hurtful to the road and they are not trustful of it and theyre not trustful of what the government is promising here so i think that the government myanmar has to do a lot better there i persuade people to go back and rein and said what the government seems to be offering the the nub of it seems to be some sort of pathway to citizenship or the possibilities of citizenship is what they calling it all the range of for the most part right not to trust the government. Theyre 100 percent right not to trust the myanmar government government has on a number of occasions over the last 50 years violently forced hundreds of thousands of or him out of the country and then when this International Pressure for them to be returned theyve allowed a fraction to return usually with diminished rights so the situation in northern Rakhine State that we can see today hasnt improved over the last 2 years you could argue i think quite strongly that its that its gotten worse but whether or not there is goodwill on the part of the me and mar authorities i think is demonstrated by the actions in and around sit way where there are 10120000 drinking or living in camps that they were forced into in 2012 theyre still there i mean these are concentration camps theres no violence in that area this is an area that me and i would describe as peaceful yet theyve herded ripping into camps right i think the remainder right do not trust the ok and a man i mean ronan has already indicated that the persecution of the ranger goes way beyond 2017 doesnt it which is the the period of time that were looking at now you had to flee miramar many years before 1985 tell us about the circumstances that led you to leave your country. As i live from bar monad in a device because of worlds period of errors by the government out of the before the school days of the for about 15 years those of the school days in a state of the schools. So in 19 people and in and from and then i defo there look there trigger me to address so i have to do comparable to. To flee from my country in 1985. And and ever since then youve been in bangladesh have you presumably still stateless presumably without any kind of travel documents identity documents am i right yeah soon them i was not i have no legal status another what and what sort of problems does that present for a person to have no legal status what does it mean for your life on a daily basis i can i stay here standin on the under the sun in braces but if anyone tell me i cannot do anything im. Arrested. What do you mean if somebody challenges seem to mean if theres a notification or a dispute youre not protected by law or maybe yeah damn i have no. Right no i gotta stay here and work here. Even i can meet some of the authority of this county but if someone makes anything against me no protection. And fill it with police and us me i have no protection right ok fill your currently in ny fiddler i mean that the me and my government has been. Has been noted for its lack of cooperation for its lack of infusing as him to engage with the outside well presumably Human Rights Watch now being in the capital is quite a rare thing what do you hope to achieve and what do you what are you picking up about the need music while shell there well you know we hope that the government will ultimately recognize that it has to do right by the road it has to all to mentally ensure accountability for what has happened to the road in addition to allowing them to come back to have security guarantees to have citizenship to have freedom of movement all the things that the kofi anon did commission called for in Rakhine State and we hope that this will be something that the International Community will see through as well that they will continue to pressure me on my intil those goals are achieved because i think ultimately the reason that were actually having this delegation going to caucuses bazaar is because the pressure has been unrelenting on the myanmar government that they have to bring these people back and they have to bring them back in a way that is dignified voluntary and safe for them and no one has talked about the security guarantees either the i mean this is a big issue for the rowing as well i mean they dont want to return to an area where the security is provided by the same army and police. That were involved in the violations against the crimes against humanity that occurred in 2017 right and ronan so so fills of the opinion that International Condemnation is building up a certain head of pressure and thats led to this delegation go to coxs bizarre but it apparently hasnt yielded in anything substantial in terms of the substance of the offer or the substance of of of of what theyre putting on the table for these refugees many of whom seem already to be saying no way were not going back well the substance the office exactly the same as they were offered before they left which is very little its the ability to participate in a discriminatory citizenship process and to live in a part of the country where there is quite frankly an Apartheid Regime designed to discriminate against them what me and mark is changing at the moment i think because of the International Pressure is its International Messaging and i would consider the decision to visit in the camps in bangladesh not as part of an attempt to convince rethink it to return but as part of a messaging to the International Community its an attempt by me and mars authorities to demonstrate that he is doing something to encourage to return and what they say is that the International Community now needs to increase the pressure on me and man weve seen very little in terms of holding perpetrators to account for their actions to be cheering 2017 i mean there was there were crimes against humanity committed in against the regime at that time and no perpetrators have been held to account for that to some travel bans so. Generals wont be able to visit the United States for instance sent and facebook means that theyre not able to be on facebook so they cant pop. Holiday pictures its as as people sort of often describe. What ringback the penalty is for them but but nothing in terms of seriously holding perpetrators to account right thats what now needs to happen the needs to be support i think for the International Criminal court ok good thought to go back to phil way say phil when were talking about the International Community stepping up the pressure upon the government of of me a man who we specifically talking about because obviously thats a huge. World community isnt it and i think was specifically talking about its neighbors for instance assy and you to be meeting in bangkok in the next week youll say china of course the biggest the biggest defender if you like of of the memo governments action is this where the pressure really needs to come from in order to effect some change fell well i think obviously i see on is a critical part of this but they are hopeless when it comes to applying a pressure to any sort of member state all theyve done so far is done a bit of a survey of the repatriation regimen and what would possibly happen if people came back you know they put out a report that leaked last month that frankly was very inadequate didnt address any of the issues about why the running of fled bangladesh in the 1st place it just glossed over that and immediately went to the operational aspects of it that then thats not enough but i think what we need to do is we need to have the United States and the e. U. And also the u. K. To press much harder on sanctions against the top generals i think the u. S. Treasury has to follow through on that travel ban by the u. S. State department you know and really go after the generals and their assets i think also we have to be looking at the 2 major corporations that operate under military control in myanmar the union of Myanmar Economic Holdings and there are Economic Corporation these are huge conglomerates with a great deal. You gauge when the International Community and their pressure points that the International Community needs now to push on in order to get some accountability here to sort of get some political commitment from the government of myanmar that they will in fact hold top military people accountable right im on coming back to you and your life as a stateless person in bangladesh is exceedingly precarious we can get that from from from what youve told us already are you not in the least bit tempted go back to again what you need and food was saying in cults is bizarre he was saying pretty soon that there will be id cards where there will no longer be the issue of race or the issue of citizenship it will only be like Social Security cards in the United States with names and some digits do you think that that is something that you and the people you know would be interested in exploring and perhaps going home and getting an ear id. No it is not legal this is. There at all or is. Lying to the people and have to do or when in 9091 the un or. The bombing of the government to give an Identity Card they give a year look at it here they are say that it is the process step to the citizenship now and the good into there and b. C. No theyre saying that is a hostile of their plight so you didnt see. Now or in burma there was no other citizens. Riya all are holding the National School tomorrow is as good a nice card not citizens it got even aus and susie when me and you know im lying right in the ny minute to do citizen theres no as good an as cut the national id cut our own has to write has an idea thats an important so they arent always playing with the color of cotton right yeah im other than that im on we all are already weve got our citizens there right tell us what life in nehemiah is like when you have a yellow college or an id card but you dont have citizenship what does that mean for the life of a person in me in law who is ranger. Not in do do you have the no right to move and the right to family value right to 0 right to do gays and right to have. Here is a no on their only here is to give the texas non one texas and their style of the united texans their government whenever they did the there are people has to be of them if you study the terrorists that are of the country we peoples are the most. Desperate people in the in burma right im coming coming to you phil what is the situation now in record stay there recently some satellite pictures released by an Australian Group which apparently showed the remnants of villages that had been razed completely to the ground i mean what to feel for it is present as he will tentative accommodation for these people should they decide to take up the offer and and go back home. Well what were seeing is in some cases villages that people abandoned because of the atrocities who fled into they fled into bangladesh and there theyre standing villages are now being destroyed weve seen in other instances where partially destroyed villages are completely destroyed and just flattened the question is what is being offered to to these people who would go back and theyre talking about going back to the same area or theyre talking about somewhere nearby but again these are just promises that have not been fully explained you know people want to go back to their areas but the problem is even if they go back are they going to be allowed freedom of movement are they going to be allowed access to basic essential Services Like access to Health Access to education will they be able to move about and pursue livelihoods i mean the freedom of Movement Issue and the security issue is the core of the major problem here that if theyre able to return will they be able to survive or will they return to the de facto apartheid situation that we see in the i. D. P. Camps in the central part of the state where you know ronan said very clearly you know they could have done something to improve that situation they have not done so and that really raises some questions about the political commitment of the authorities to allow true freedom of movement and real rights for the running of people right and rain and a space its useful to remind ourselves that me and mary as. A country a medium size country with 135. 00 official ethnic groups thats a hell of a lot isnt it in terms of reckoning state were concentrating on the plight of the range of people but there are other ethnic groups as well who feel themselves to be marginalized and quite often brutalized as well by the mean mouth artists. I will they are the United Nations Human Rights Council Investigation Team highlighted crimes against humanity committed by me and mothers military against groups in the chain state shan state and Rakhine State so its a Major International report highlighting that serious crimes by me and mars military not just against the really good but against other groups and that the key point here is that mia mars military is constitutionally above the law there is no one in the government who can hold them to a cat so its really now up to the International Community to do that now you could argue that Aung San Suu Kyi as the civilian leader of the country has some i think moral authority to hold the military to account but shes demonstrated that shes not interested in doing that right he has absolutely no interest in calling out the military so its really left up to the International Community run this film as phil suggested the a key way to do that is to take away their sources of income. Or ite fill in naypyidaw in record stayed there seems to be several axes of conflict its not just the military is it. Attacking the rich there are also monks there are also ordinary civilians who are who are nationalists of one order or another so it seems as though there are many different layers of violence that the particular record in the north west of the state could face so the security guarantees are essential for these people if if indeed theyre going to go back home. Thats absolutely true and the reality is that people are also going to face discriminatory restrictions from the state authorities and from the local authorities this is why i think if you talk to the ruling on coxs bazaar theyre talking about International Security guarantees they want International People being Access Allowed access to northern Rakhine State you know theyve even talked about u. N. Peacekeepers which i think is unrealistic but the fact is that even humanitarians or people like monitors from the Un Refugee Agency are not able to get into the areas where mars proposing to send these row into without International Access and some sort of protective mandate for International Staff to be able to go in these areas and monitor what happened i think its be very difficult for the government of myanmar to persuade the running of to go back right and give the last word to you. Having listened to all of this do you think he will ever ever be able to go back when youve been outside of your country for more than 20 years will you ever be able to go home at the moment in burma the power will is of the army she she can do an undo of really do anything any time in any means the governments are not going to do the end of the government is only like food lets try again which rather stand by lehman if the me and iran call me the army i said i the anime then something can tease so. At present and i didnt do it can go back to hold on leaves and im living then as an economy. Evolves the security as a safe area. And the the believe the rule of. Journalism a common did to proctor like ours who are not brought over here in our own country write laws i was a group d. Well in our country so we need International Community to protect us all right ok and then as im calm we did not provoke ours there right and a family having to live in their man were 2 of the im afraid we have to leave it there im on thank you so much indeed. Talking to us live from Dhaka Bangladesh thank you very much a ranger hes been out of his country for more than 20 years Phil Robertson talking to us from the me a markup little naypyidaw thank you very much indeed phil from Human Rights Watch and ronan li of Queen Mary University in london thank you all very much indeed for an interesting conversation today thank you for watching the program as ever if you want to see it again you can go to our website aljazeera dot com if youd like more discussion remember theres a Facebook Page facebook dot com for slash a. J. Inside story and theres the choices for our handle is at a. J. Inside story im at dennis so for me in the whole team here in doha is by for now. Aljazeera exposes controversial allegations about the bahraini government. Barred they told me youre a member of al qaeda you can stop the clones of the shia. And its commission with al qaida to conspire against the assassin to keep opposition figures 20. Playing with fire on aljazeera. Following 2 fatal crashes and the past year bowen decided to brown the brand new 7 through 7 max but this wasnt the 1st time the wound had a new aircraft back in 2013 the 77 dreamliner ran into trouble when a battery caught fire but is out of the us Investigative Unit discovered there is more to the problem than just smoking batteries. Rewind of broken dreams the boeing 787 on al jazeera. New yorkers are very receptive to aljazeera because it is such an International City theyre very interested in that global perspective that al jazeera provides. Element of the problem in doha with the headlines on aljazeera there are reports saddams Security Forces a using live ammunition against protesters gathering and on their mom near the capital of khartoum thousands of people are joining mass rallies across the country after 5 demonstrators and coding 4 students were shot dead by police on monday the growing anger has forced the head of the military join to respond saying the killing of peaceful students is a crime that requires immediate accountability have a morgan has the latest from neighboring ethiopia and there can be seen and heard on the streets in khartoum and various other cities across the jan students have come out to protest and condemn the violence that happened in the city of a lady in north korea on monday morning now its not Just High School students who are protesting there are also civilians as well as University Students there saying that there should be justice and accountability for the deaths of at least 5 protesters including 4 High School Students now most of these protests as were activists have been matched with tear gas in the cities of sort of 2 and a live ammunition in the city of durham and there is concerns there are concerns from the protesters that there will be more deaths but they are saying that they will not stop with their protests theyre also demanding that the Opposition Coalition is the forces for freedom and change all talks with the military council now the 2 sides are negotiating to try to calm the Transitional Government but the opposition has halted those talks for today which are they were expected to meet later that most of them have gone to the town of moore to secure
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