Ok and join the stream today is coverage of respecting indigenous land rights or look at the protests over a proposed pipeline in the what so whats a nation you can join our conversation live on you tube and twitter. Im dr Sharman Melson professor of art history at Mcgill University in montreal and you are in a string. On sunday hereditary chase of the white sweater nation and the cajun government came to a tentative agreement that could end nearly a month of protests over a proposed natural gas pipeline just look at all the hotshots of the protests and those protests have generated the talks laid out a commitment to recognize Aboriginal Land rights but the 2 sides are still odds over this 640. 00 climate a coastal gas pipeline that would run for the 1st nation now unlike all of the 1st nations in canada where its so wet and land has never been seeded by treaty to the government of over the 6 canadian place enter the territory to break up whats on land defend us from that camp the such as shown here our solidarity protests blockades on major role lines and road spot by that Police Action complicating the issue is a difference in the opinion between 2 sets of 1st nations leadership while they were to treat chiefs are against the pipeline elected ballot councils have approved of its construction. Agreements where they dont have the authority and so on the greens have played the game that the problem have played for years with the with suid nation there router treaty or the authority no one else can make a deal no one else can speak for them. With us to talk about these issues in the west so wet a nation Molly Wickham a Spokes Person for the given day. In toronto Sherry Pasternak Research Director of the Yellowhead Institute which studies 1st nations land rights and in vancouver Candice Callison an associate professor at the university of British Columbia research focuses on journalism and indigenous studies ladies its good to have you here molly we have covered on the string pipeline protests before there was so much more to this issue than a pipeline process but we are talking about Environmental Concerns as well can you describe the land were talking about the land that youre protesting about having a pipeline being developed across it. Definitely and i think that framing it in a sense that its our responsibility we dont consider ourselves protesters in a struggle we went to a 10 people that according to our law you have a responsibility to take care of our territories and cast you know where they get into and count lies is right next door to the instant count and tree line between those 2 air are with same class its one of our main spawning rivers crafts now and we drink the water directly out of the river and one of the last areas that there are untouched areas in our territory and its one of the places where we can be who we are actually lives there with my family on a regular basis and so thats what were fighting for is territory that all these other different systems and all these other different River Systems all the way to the coast she i just opened up that that 640 kilometer propose pipeline again so people can see it although sad and i should say other than Environmental Issues what are the all the issues that have got some Indigenous People to say you can never come on the slide you should never be here. Well we definitely have our eye on a lot of very strict in terms of trespass and so we have a very strict form of government and government on our territory where we have to ask permission to come on to even another class territory and so we have 22000 square kilometers of territory that this pipeline would run through. And these are areas where we have you know im touched. Grizzly bear habitat. All of those types of Environmental Issues but also this is really at the core about which so much in government. To govern our church grace as we have always. Had to say you know say go ahead articulate the north for me well its so its territory is one of many 1st nations in b. C. They do not have. British columbia 8 which is the western worlds province in canada they do not have treaties so we are a special case in canada in terms of our our lack of relationship with the federal government and with the provincial government and in fact the word so it in and its own people have the landmark case that says that Indigenous People have existing rights and title and its what many of all of you know many of the 1st nations look to what so its in and gets down to for having you know put this court case together were having to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court she let me bring you into the conversation there has been a consultation process reading and its been quite extensive i dont understand why theres still a problem as to why the protest is and the police are in a standoff. Situation right now why did the consultation process what sherry. I think we have to go back to i cant as was just saying about the landmark decision that came down in 1970 referred to as the decision which recognizes that to get center which the 2 nations had never surrendered their lands and that they help the corps called aboriginal title or underlying title to the land they didnt the court didnt demarc 8 this specific land that they had that underline tied a lot they sent that back to negotiation or subject to further trial and the negotiations molly can speak more to this but the negotiations didnt result in recognition of title and rather what happened was the lesser standard Legal Standard in settler law which is consultation is the one thats have play on the territory but this is really a question of access to justice because you know wanted to get a declaration of title the only nation who ever did so in canada see a protein spent decades and tens of millions of dollars in order to get a declaration of title and only over small small area of their traditional territory and so that creates an insurmountable barrier for nations to be able to through the canadian Settler Court system to get a declaration of title that would protect them under the stronger Legal Standard of consent rather than consultation so the consultation standard has been applied in a very in a lower legal threshold you could say than the consent standard would apply on title ins let me bring. Sampson the young girls protest. Oh what the protests. Have a listen have a look. One of the indigenous you threw it so tune that ive been holding it down at the legislature for 8 days now. As a collective we stand in solidarity with you its urgent hereditary chiefs and we want to thank them for their bravery and their courage and for inspiring Indigenous Peoples across Turtle Island in the work that theyre doing i mean theres years we recognize that what happens on lets go to territories can happen in any of our territories yeah well you pick up from that perhaps and i think that thats one of the big issues that we have is that this is about consent. The consultation process the way that it currently is is not adequate it doesnt involve the indigenous groups and involves oftentimes band Council Systems which are not our inherent governance system and so we actually if were following that so its a model for respect and lets not consent means that we actually get to say no to projects consent doesnt mean that we will accommodate you to the point where you will say yes to allow a project that could destroy you as a people and could destroy a government system thats not what consent is and redefined what consent is as what so 10 people according to our law and thats class come in between this consultation process and and the idea of what consent actually means just you mind explaining for i want is here outside of canada or the difference between a bad council and i need us because that is incredibly important to this conversation yes so what canada. It created these governments that were called you know we call them reserve governments we call them Band Councils in b. C. Its a very specific history because and sorry i keep saying b. C. But i mean British Columbia so in British Columbia its a very specific problem because what happened was when the indian act came to British Columbia there is such diversity among 1st nations there and they divided up 1st nations into many Band Councils and these were small subsets of larger nations and these bank councils were responsible for reserves so land that was set aside in the rest of canada where there are treaties those set aside lands are you know part of a treaty process in b. C. These reserves were made and then they were made smaller and smaller over time and so the indian act. Band councils have elected chiefs that are elected by the people who live on reserves in some cases people off reserve can also vote and you should know that in British Columbia a sizable amount of Indigenous People live off reserve as well as on reserves and that is in contrast to the governments that have been there since time immemorial so in the case of what so it in territory as molly was explaining that hereditary chiefs are the governance system that they are part of the governance system that has been in place since time immemorial so for thousands of years not every 1st nation in British Columbia has a hereditary system but in the case so what so it in territory there hereditary system has actually been very well defined in the courts because of this case that weve all mentioned dont dilute so so this is a a well defined hereditary system in which the Supreme Court of canada has said that the hereditary chiefs you know are the title holders it is that so hereditary so this is this this is where it gets complicated but basically hereditary chase are more important than the bank castle so if theres already an agreement ladies you correct me if im going in the wrong direction it isnt already in agreement with the bank councils which is what has happened with this ghastly gassing that doesnt count as much as any objections that the hereditary leaders may have money to get that right. Well actually i think that its and they dont like to frame it in the. Hereditary system because if you look at the back not sos all of those people are members of our nation. And at a distance i just wanted to make it very clear as to that they with 2 different stratas of leadership that were making different. The had a different opinion about this coastal gas link did i get that bit right. I would even say that theres a different opinion and i would say that the cover has cryptically use the bank Council System and its not to the detriment of the faults of our own people that are leading these bad councils necessarily or that can emerge that support the project the way that the bank Council System is set up is that Bank Accounts count sheep councillors get to make decisions without necessarily consulting the rest of the Community Members and so were under you know the direction that we bring everybody and we include everybody as a hereditary system because they all belong to our class and our house scripts which is it a very complex system so its hard for people to understand but the main idea is that we are all one nation and that you know the government is using this as a true a back shot so as a tool to undermine our governance system and our sortie which is what theyve done from day one when the imposition of the an act and the Council System in the 1st place so what is just to keep. Up the un i live you tube conversation and chat that we are curating so were not just showing any comments with you but raz kills says he is talking about the protesting and you can push back on this if you need to form and try to derail a train which could have killed people they dont need to do that to protests so the quality of the protest they will the method of protesting when they can speak to that. I think that its up to whatever nations that are engaging and solidarity actions to determine what they you know whatever means they had in necessary to show their support but also. You know move things forward and put pressure on their government and the r. C. M. P. And i think that theres you know oftentimes Indigenous People are framed as irrational as violent and this is not something thats new this is something thats continually bend and this is why connotation was successful because we were framed as savages as violent as less civilized and so you can often see that same sort of framing happening when issues like this come up like as if we dont have a right to. You know to challenge the state sure we dont have an abstract somali waiting again in the same you cheap conversation pushing back about the methods of protesting he says the goal is to make a loud enough noise to get the r. C. And paid the Royal Canadian mounted police and the canadian government out of needed to have a tree not to mention the every blockade cost the government money kerry if were talking about practical ways to work out land rights who has the choice about what is developed or not developed on indigenous land is this an effective way to do that protest. I really want to put the responsibility back in the hands of Law Enforcement and the governments themselves though it so it would have been clear since 2014 that they oppose the pipeline they did the Pipeline Company from their territory and all democratic means to attend their rights were exhausted and still the governments the cost of gasoline refused to listen to their withdrawal of consent or lack of consent and so when you see people blocking infrastructure these are the weapons of people who have been rendered voiceless by all other means. Expression and i would say that the rationale of Economic Hardship thats been used in order to justify a running trains towards people who are on those train lines is greatly exaggerated as well we know that the transport minister brokered a deal with the 2 major rail Line Companies to divert their trains minimizing Economic Hardship minimizing disruption and yet they continue to use that rationale to justify serving just a proliferation of injunctions across the country against people who are standing up in solidarity of the would so it and in order to show that this is it we are ready to stand up we are writ ready to shut the country down in order to express our solidarity with a nation that is protecting their land not just for themselves but for the good of all people in this country the federal and provincial governments continue to invest in the hydrocarbon and fossil fuel infrastructure thats destroying the planet and these the east nations are showing leadership in the face of the Climate Emergency and defending their lands and they have given us an opportunity and the direction to stand as. I think. Many people who agree with me but it would be remiss of me not to save us i have to say it comes from the coastal gas link official twitter page so its going to come from the developer who wants that castle to atl happen but theyre all situations where people. Who do want things. To go for we do want to bet a face it will help us whose houses. Not many people dont really understand how underfunded most 1st nations communities are these projects to help them get to a similar level funding as their neighbors. And helps increase their cation their health their economic wellbeing more of the things they always see in for safety reasons they want to start managing prosperity and poverty so its this is a step to. Have escaped. Yeah i actually just want to go back to some points that were made earlier because i think one of the big challenges that we face in canada and especially in British Columbia is the lack of knowledge of history so a lot of people dont realize that there are no treaties a lot of people dont understand the distinctions that have been made here and it really often benefits the government in terms of of framing Indigenous People as divided right the divide and conquer strategy is something thats been used continuously in British Columbia so that Indigenous People are not seen as united d in terms of their concern and care for their communities so when i see a video like the one youve just shown i hear that there are Indigenous People concerned about their communities and i dont i think that how that concern gets exercised right and and how that concerning gets you know represented can be very problematic because that same lack of education thats pervasive across canada is also previous of across canadas media great Canadian Media as molly pointed out has continually framed Indigenous People as somehow deficient right and that it becomes really problematic when Indigenous People are actually quite resilient right when when theyre not framed as resilient people defending their land and defending their rights and title that they have fought through the Supreme Court about and so you know there has to be some some sea change d in the way that Mainstream Media in particular represents it is d in its people and weve seen alternative media lead the way in representing Indigenous People as resilient as you know having shared concerns and as have as needing space and time to work that out i mean in some ways the reason why are in this situation is because the government has prioritise the economic concerns of a corporation as opposed to the needs of the community let me just bring into this conversation because i think it is important that it divides kind its a right now and that is the voice of the opposition needs at this was back in made february but this is how he described the protests in wilson empathetic have a look have a miss. Their country be one of the rule of law or will our country be one of the rule of the mob. Will we let our entire economy be held hostage by a small group trampling over the legal system which is govern our country for more than 150 years because let me be clear mr speaker standing between our country and press spirity is a small group of radical activists many of whom have little to no connection to 1st nations communities. We also asked the Prime Minister of canada for a statement to be part of the program he said look at this tweet from cowal im bennett he also shed another statement that same statement here from scott fraser Scott Frazier is the. Minister for indigenous relations and reconciliation and this here is that particular statement so that has been i want to say how has that been progress mallie i should say over the weekend of discussing what does what so wetton people actually want. I think that there has been that sound progress made in that area. Discussions did not result the issue of coastal gas link or any r. C. M. P. You were hoping that they will lead to a resolution to get the r. C. M. P. Out of our territory back as Andrew Scheer talked about you know framing us as this mob that standing in the way you know in this great country thats how we feel our fear of being in our territory is that there are this iron mercenaries private mercenaries for industry paid by the government to come and interfere with our nation with our sovereign nation and that hasnt been resolved yet its something that were still working on and although were headed in the right direction this is far from where this all of the issues that we brought up as with sort of 10 people have not been resolved and theyre not going to be resolved in 3 days at meetings this is a deep deep seated issue that we have to continue to work on and we continue to appreciate everybodys support and solidarity all across the nation from coast to coast. Im going to for reconciliation process in canada was supposed to avoid situations like this do you think it can do you think canadians across the board indigenous and nonindigenous are understanding what is at stake here. I think the efforts of Indigenous People over the last few decades you know you could you could go back all the way to contact but there are many seminal Historic Events from that constitution express in the eightys to the Royal Commission Aboriginal Peoples in the ninetys that followed the Largest Military occupation in canadian history on got to why they got to talk a lands to the truth and truth. And its sort of to discuss about your thought into one last line because were almost at the end of the. I think the time is now for people to recognize that the hash tag reconciliation is dead is the time for us to stand up and show real solidarity on the ground rather than count on governments to do the work that theyre obviously not doing to respect indigenous sovereignty and jurisdiction. Not i thought sherry. Thank you so much for helping us understand it or the data the strain and so watching. Business leaders is going to buy the brass part. Business leaders is to buy no brass power. 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