Transcripts For ALJAZ Inside Story 20240711

Say theyve shot down an Ethiopian Military plane and captured the pilot a day after the Prime Minister declared victory in the region. Meanwhile, ethiopian state media says at least 70 graves have been found in the train town from where at least 110. 00 civilians have been killed in northeastern nigeria and what the uns described as a gruesome massacre. A fondness tending the crops, the armed group, or karama, suspected of being behind that the deadliest attack in borno state this year, amid interest, has more from the future. The incident happened in 2 villages at least 2 villages in northeastern nigeria, in borno state, in particular. And one surprising thing is that the attackers, according to sources, came on motorcycles, and there has been a ban on the use of motorcycles in that region for at least 6 years now. So its surprising how Security Forces couldnt identify or discover. Some people illegally using motorcycles, they carried out their tax when these farm workers were busy harvesting rice in the fields in the course of it as well as a bit of money where we saw today, a funeral for 43. 00 of the victims were, was held less confidence to largest counties a finalized a recount of votes, confirming president elect joe biden. As the wenna, the recount paid for by Donald Trumps campaign found no instances for old white house senior adviser, jared crush, now reportedly traveled to saudi arabia and castle. In the coming days. I mean, to help resolve the dispute between neighboring countries and comes amid tensions in the region following the killing of an iranian scientist. And with just weeks left in the top administration. The headlines ill have another update for you off the inside story, stay with us. The grapes of wrath of china imposes tariffs on a starting point in a worsening diplomatic dispute story, it accuses beijing of building. So why has their relationship turned so sad . This isnt hello, welcome to the program. Between australia and china, all unraveling fost, beijings ban some imports and play state customs duties on of the products. The latest is a tariff of up to 212 percent on australian law and china is australias biggest trading partner and says its a measure against dumping to protect its own wine industry. But australia believes the reasons political. The government has criticised chinas handling of code 19, as well as its treatment of minority week of muslims in june yang. The crackdown on opposition protests in chinas decision to impose tariffs on the wine industry. Disappointing and disproportionate. And a lot of their recent comments would be give the perception that these imposing of these tariffs relating to other matters rather than any wrongdoing by the one inch. If that is the case, that would be contravention. Try to strike on the tykes. We all know that we have free trade agreements and expect to be chinas blaming australia for the deterioration which i think australia should undergo a deep introspection should 1st reflects on whether they have respect to chinas interests. Some time, some people in australia have been tenuously clinging to the cold war mentality and ideological bias. The repeatedly made wrong statements and actions on issues concerning chinas core interests. This is what led to the shop decline in china, australia relations, and what got them into such a difficult state. Tensions been building for years in 2017, australia announced laws to curb foreign interference after accusing china attempting to meddle in its politics. A year later, the nation was the 1st to publicly restrict use of the chinese tech giant weiwei, citing National Security reasons. And in april australia supported an International Probe into the origin of covert 19 that was 1st detected and chinese city of. Then shortly after china impose tariffs on australian bali suspended beef imports and launched an anti dumping inquiry into australian wine. Beijing also caution Chinese People against going to australia, citing racist incidents over the spread of covert 19. Lets bring in our guests in beijing, china tangan, a political analyst, specializing in China Affairs and in hong kong, pauline newman, managing director of asia analytic a, a Research Consultancy firm while committee by the want to start in beijing with 1st there is this diplomatic dispute there is escalating between australia and china . Australia seems to be playing a political strategy have beijing is responding with trade tariffs and suspensions of australian products affectively a trade war. My question to you is this. Surely any criticism of china is simply the cost of doing business. And the chinese overreacting here. Well, there are a number of issues there. 1st up there was the thing with australia never produced any evidence that hallway was fact a security threat. They just simply stated that thats what they believed, and the nurses just more recently, this Chinese Company moment are a Dairy Company in australia and it was on the ground. It was not in the best national interest. So i think its a little difficult for australia to be crying that theyre acting only in a political nature, looking out for old people and human rights or things like that when theyre in fact engaging in saxon behavior. But i know is, is this rooted in some kind of prejudice towards some sort of xenophobia in fact towards china . Do you think . I do think so. I mean theres, theres this, i mean, ive heard been on many shots for ive heard people from developed countries, australia, the United States, even in europe, where they said, you know, its time that china update the international rules. Well, these are rules that were created in other places. These are not rules that are written, not some rock somewhere and given down by a higher authority. These are simply rules that allowed west to prosper. So, you know, youre having a new multilateral structure and this idea that china is simply a child that needs to be taught a lesson, isnt true. China has been prospering for the last 40 years. They feel very confident in the system that theyve created, especially in view of the financial meltdown. And also most recently their response that both terms of how and economics. So the idea that theyre going to change that simply because they should be following rules. I think its doubtful they saw what happened to pan with the plaza courts, and im certain that theyre not going to comply with this idea of not going under to a set of rules that is meant to contain polio in hong kong. This is much more than just a trade war, isnt it . Yes, basically, i think discussions about the a strangely end china relationship has focused really on, on the wrong things. This discussion about who is right, who has produced evidence, who did it wrong . I dont think that that is an approach that is useful in discussing international relations. All countries quite rightly want the best for their own country. So each country will think that it is doing the right thing. So industry rather pointless for anyone to argue about whos right, whos wrong . Because thats the more prevalent as such between nations that only interests you have an agreement or you dont have an agreement. So you want, you walk towards how good can solve differences and make sure that you know, both of you are, cannot walk away from the table. Happy. And right now, neither china, north korea, a walking away from the table happy because both sides are saying, well, the other side needs to give more. So i think we should not really focus our whos right and whos wrong, but more on why the 2 countries cannot come together. So as to give the other Party Something to be happy about. And i think it was down to the fact that this is more than just trade. Its the fact that the whole bilateral relations, i think its deteriorated. And until that is next, you have been to get the trade easier, isnt going to get quarrels about the weather. Thats interference. All the, its, this is the resell, its the, the symptoms not the reason for the, for the illness. The illness is that the relationship is bad and this distrust of both sides. And i think thats, thats whats causing the problem. I know you shaking your head that i want to response. Well, i mean, it sounds all very reasonable. You know, children are playing properly, but you know, you have to look at the sequence of events. Quite frankly, austria was spared the worst of the economic recession in 2009, simply because china was, was there theres, theres nothing that mandates that china has to buy things from australia. Thats ridiculous. And in terms of, you know, quote equal footing. Its nonsense. I mean, quite frankly, australia has taken a political position. If we were simply talking about trade, i would agree with my colleague that it should be about the best interests. But once you inject ideology, once you start sending, you know, 5 least one for your needy into disputed waters as part of some sort quadrilateral, defensive act in that hemming in china. These moves cant be seen as friendly. I mean, i cant go up to somebody, kick them in the shins, spit in their face, and then say, hey, thats, lets use intro to mean that its a little bit ridiculous. This idea that you shouldnt find fault is fine. But in this particular case, its australia, its fault. And if you want a fairly balanced view street, jeff province, latest book on this, where hes discussed in a very intense pro australians talking about the realities and the realities are that australia is turning from its head. I trying to politically pressure china when its dependent on china for its economy. But in the spirits of international affairs, global affairs. Its an economic trade relationship at the heart of all of this, like you mentioned, australia was a spared the worst of the financial crisis because china was that. But that doesnt mean that that call be a dialogue. Our guest in hong kong talked about compromise. I know where is the compromise hit . Well, the compromise here is, is to simply act on facts. If they want to bot than follow it, thats fine. Thats, thats within their national purview. But they should at least produce some sort of evidence. I mean, you know, thats comment. I mean is just, it smacks of races. If you start looking at the number of attacks against asians, not just chinese, simply because this kind of worsening relationship. And you know, this idea that somehow that, you know, white western powers should be dictating the rules. Of course, it does bring up hackles. So, you know, this idea that you should compromise my should be that there should be mutual respect. China is not perfect by any means and it needs to grow thicker skin in many cases. But in this particular case, i mean, what australia is doing is literally aimed at provoking china. And then you know, this idea that they want to cry unfair because genesis look, we dont want to trade with you. I mean, lets get back to it. The issue is simply, china does not have to buy anything from australia. There are other nations lining up brazil, south all the soybean and, and all the iron ore separate centuries, south america, standing by their beef imports from all over the world. Doing so, i mean, and it, why does australia matter . China is quite, i mean, the interesting thing is, you know, look at america, australia is blindly following america, this odd situation. Another bring in bowling. Heck, ill make it, you make an interesting point. I want her to react to. That doesnt seem to be any space to compromise according to our guest. Amazing that spur a compromise you talked about earlier. That seems very far away. Well, look, essentially, i want to go back a bit to whether china has to buy from a stranger. I totally agree with that. I dont know why anyone ever have see the fuelling that one country should ever have to do to buy or to sell or to do any to put another country. And a strain is actually it really dont leverage. As far as i can see, and it depends so much on china, put its exports in the other way round chinas global in sports today. I mean, australia accounts for what about 2 percent of chinas of blubber in sport. So australia has actually the commercial leverage whatsoever. And its, its not surprising to me that china should say, when walt is you, we are going to leverage our markets, our strings to achieve that. So in that sense, i totally agree. That is absolutely no reason why china would want to accommodate as trade. On the other hand, in terms of strategy and relationship, theres something to be said for compromising and trying to get to be to give something to the other party. So that could be a discussion, but polling what im hearing from lots of australians and injuring my research for the show. I spoke to a number of people who told me very bluntly, that the were very proud of australias position when it came to china. Because they said china was acting like a believe that it wasnt listening to the concerns of the australian people. Particular when it came to home, human rights within china itself. Is it then . Just the question i asked on a very beginning in the show is just the cost of doing business. Surely if youre going to get criticize, you are going to get criticised, but theres no reason to react like this. Well, i think the very practical position that i dont see why any country would want to be a bully if it could. Very many countries dont, not because of sheer goodness of heart, but because it doesnt work in the long term by alienating people and getting other people being aware of the queue all the time. So what is wrong . I think with the relationship that perhaps china could do is to be less to fruit. Its muscle less. Yes. You do have more so yes, you do have a market but to fail. And so obviously may not be the best strategy in getting australians to be onboard. And im beijing, where were at right now seems to be a conversation that it doesnt matter whether its australia or whether its other nations, when it comes to china. China is a very powerful nation. It doesnt need to listen to other countries. Youve often said that actually it does and it does listen to other countries. But when it comes to things like the human rights record, when it comes to the treatment of the week has, is just the way. Its just another way, the International Create community being able to criticize china is china looking at those criticisms. Im wondering whether its worth it, whether it does need to do something about them. Well, i mean, ive talked about this before. Theres a fundamental difference in how people look at human rights in asia versus elop countries in a developed country. Human rights starts with the ballot box and it has everything youre with 3 political expression. But when you go to asia, human rights are about safety in the streets, in your homes, about Economic Opportunity about having, you know, access to medical care as social services say that. So, you know, and that could be just simply because there are different economic levels. But quite frankly, this idea that you know, china, china feels that it is doing the best for its people. And you know, if you, anyone can feel free to criticize. But you cannot necessarily change peoples point of view simply because you want to impose this idea that china has to accept western ways. I find that to be actually quite racial racist. This idea that the white father knows best, i mean, quite frankly, i mean, australia is not in a position to really be talking to anybody about how it treats people. I mean, after what happened with the average means. You know, the, you know, very, very late. You know, up, you know, anyone doing anything really about or apologize in any kind of meaningful way that changes things for aboriginals . I mean, its kind of silly. I think i would agree with my colleague that this is a situation where both sides have to cool down. Take the ideology out of the equation. If this simply is going to trade trade with each other, but dont tell other people how they should be running their country. Me, quite frankly, if os, if australia felt that china was trying to dictate what it meant for human rights. What it meant, how they should be running their political system complaining about how you know democracy and capitalism are not producing these governments or the economic systems that have been promised by these particular ideas. Austrians would be absolutely through the roof. Why are you interference in our issues . Things like this. So i mean there has to be a recognition that its a multiple of world that there are different paths prosper and then countries have the right to find them within limits of such obviously, you dont want any kind of genocide and things like that. You want forced situations where people are being hurt, coerced into doing things against their personal liberty and interests. So, i mean those are issues, but theyre not necessarily issues. You bring up on a daily basis as you try to fill our country. And this is where beijing is feeling, thinks they dont feel any kind of understanding from, you know, this kind of developed country nations that democratic capitalist nations claimed that they have to the best in all, their american exceptionalism has become in essence, a fascist state. That says, doesnt matter how we do it, were going to force you to become just like us, even if its becoming just like us is not working. As weve seen at latest election polling, its a very interesting point. Our guest in beijing makes, he talks about american exceptionalism. Maybe we are looking at a world where there will be chinese exceptionless and china is very big. Its very powerful. Its not listening to the criticisms given by other countries when it comes to human rights from the press except to our guest and said, well actually human rights mean something very different in china to the rest of the world. Oh, are we looking at a country that is so powerful that that really no one can force it to change . Actually. I think the minority position that trying not is not really as things as the press and the media make them out to be. Of course, if someone criticized and theres a oh, we dont like it. We dont want when they say they did throw out an australian journalist, pauline they did doing a ton of did throw to australian journalists the country for criticizing china itself. Its. They are quite thin skinned, i think of course, theyre going to say we dont like this and that. But if 2 countries get along, lets sit the criticism. Are we to be enmity between japan and china before theres they were saying lots of nasty things about each other. Now theyre getting along. Suddenly, it doesnt matter how all the past criticisms were forgotten. So the relationship is current, the criticisms would be out by nothing. I dont really like you saying theres, but if the relationship is bad, suddenly its all open up in talk, big deal. Think how dare you, pretty sarkozy. I really dont think china is that instant. And we often talk about china like it is a monolithic, the Chinese Government like has a monolithic government like it is coming. It is how it has one opinion by all the dissenting voices when it comes to this issue with australia. Other people within china, the Chinese Government, peoples republic of china, saying, actually maybe we should be trying another approach. Well, i think the dissidents are, is quite strong. I mean, to try to get 6 people to agree on a restaurant. Now try to get 90000000 people to agree on ideology and actually theres always a rainbow ikeas, but the way that the chinese system works is they discuss it at great length for hours until everybody gets on, you know, a relative same page. And then the chairman say, you know, kate seems a consensus. Is this a position . And thats what they stick with. Now, if youre part of the discussion and then you go out and say, well, i didnt like that or i supposed to do something else. Human essence, broken is its not about your opinion, its about process, its stop. So this idea that chinas model that this is, it is nonsense in terms of australia. I dont think youre going to find many people who are very sympathetic to australia. Frankly, beijing is scratching its head and just dont understand why australia, which is located in the east is acting like its an appendage of the United States. What, what, what possible advantage that this, that have . When you Start Talking about pragmatics, you know, australia, hes not going to dictate how china runs its country. And this idea that it should be echoing everything that the us says is nonsense in terms of japan. Well, i understand, i understand my colleagues client. Quite frankly, the animists of us has kind of put the bad feelings with japan on the back burner, but i would assure that the feelings for japan have not changed. That is yes, a change, but theyve been able to compartmentalize and quite frankly, you do not hear japan going after china on an ideological priests. This is one of the features that donald trump has brought into the world is the mixing of security politics. So i know we are running out of time, i would like to bring in paul into to take a crack at that statement that you just made, that its chinas basically too big. We keep hearing this, we keep hearing this. However, there is a misunderstanding of how the world works nowadays. Is that where this is all coming from that still the world has changes. Dont know, its no longer the west anymore. Yes, the world has definitely changed in the sense that no country, when there is that United States australia are trying to, can afford to, to close itself, not to say, well, i dont care what anyone else does. Im just going to do what i want to do. Thats not possible for any country anymore. And i think every country has to come to terms with the fact that, well, its got to compromise something in order to live with the rest of the. Well, not just with one other country or 2 countries, but with the whole world as a whole. How you fit in. And i think that hopefully in a few years, everyone will come around to this realise station and say, well, we cant have it all, we will have to keep what we really want. And at least something on the table for someone else to break out to thank both our guests on it. Hang on and pauline long. Thank you very much. And i want to thank you guys as well. For chang. You can see the program again any time by visiting our website out to sarah dot com. And for further discussion, go to our facebook page. Thats facebook dot com for slash a. J. Inside story. And you can also join the conversation on twitter. We are at a. J. Inside story from am wrong. And the whole team here in doha, qatar now i december on aljazeera. Its 10 years since of revolution in tunisia ignited the arab spring. Aljazeera looks back at the uprising and asks what really changed across the middle east. The stream is where al jazeera has global audience becomes a global community. A year after the 1st coronavirus case in china will examine the devastation caused by the virus and the efforts made to eliminate covert 90 people in power is back with more investigative documentary is an indepth stories. 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