Now on bbc news, hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Will the wave of anger and protest that has swept across america since the killing of george floyd in minneapolis have a Lasting Impact difference to Race Relations . Surely african america ns must surely be sceptical. Racism and discriminatory and violent policing have survived all previous efforts to make real the promises of equality and justice for all. My guest today is the historian and veteran Civil Rights Campaigner mary frances berry. What will it take to engineer genuine change . Mary frances berry, welcome to hardtalk. And thank you forjoining me from new orleans. Thank you very much for having me. We are having beautiful weather here. Well, i can see there isa weather here. Well, i can see there is a bit ofa weather here. Well, i can see there is a bit of a hurricane through your window, but let us focus on the storms that have been hitting and sweeping across america in recent days. The whole world has been watching the response to the killing of george floyd in minneapolis. You have an historians i. Does all of this feel different to you from previous cases of the killing in Police Detention of unarmed black man . Now, whats different about this one, we had video before, when eric garner was chokehold in new york city and said i cant breathe. And just a reminder a body, that was six years ago. So we had video then. In earlier protests, before that time, on most occasions, and earlier murders of unarmed black people, we didnt have video. What happened this time, i think, makes it different is the virus, and the stay at home orders that have locked us stay at home orders that have locked us infour stay at home orders that have locked us in four months now, with a lot of people anxious to get out, and the fa ct people anxious to get out, and the fact that the students, College Students, University Students and many people who had been working arent working. Schools were online and now our semester is over. So now there are people who are engaged and who know about this and watch this and who may have supported doing something about Police Reform before, but now they have the energy, the time, the virus response to the virus sort of puts some tender their, and the discontent with shop, which has been visceral since the 2016 election tinder there. So if you throw all that together, you can see that there is a difference. So let us start with your characterisation of who has come out onto the streets in terms of the protests, the public anger in the last ten days or more. Barack obama anger in the last ten days or more. Ba rack obama has anger in the last ten days or more. Barack obama has said that what he has seen is a far more representative Cross Section of america out on the street this time then he has seen before, including, he says, going all the way back to the Civil Rights Campaigns of the 19605. The Civil Rights Campaigns of the 1960s. Do you see that broader Cross Section of people at work right now . Obviously. Anyone who looks at the crowds can see the difference. Lots of young white people who are involved in it, and older ones, too. People who are motivated to get out there and do something about these issues. It all started, in a sense, before the shootings occurred, with the election of trump. We have been in a state of continuous sort of revolt, ifi state of continuous sort of revolt, if i may put it that way, and resistance, since he became president. I mean, some people still cant believe that he became president. So we have a bit of a continuous state. Theres been one thing after another, about trumpet. So we had revolution on the first day, when he was trying to get inaugurated, we had marches and protests a nd inaugurated, we had marches and protests and big ones, and so on. Bigger than the people who came out for the inauguration. So this Continuous Attitude of resistance, and then you have the virus, and then you have the stay home, and then you have the stay home, and then you have all the college stu d e nts then you have all the College Students across racial lines who are out, the young people and the older people, without jobs, and out, the young people and the older people, withoutjobs, and you put that mix together, you can see the people. During the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, there were white people who were involved in the movement, some of them very courageous people, some of whom got shot, like viol lewis, i could recall the names, but i dont want to call all of them here, engaged in this process, protest, but the numbers were smaller. What strikes me, though, is that you already in this interview have used the words resista nce this interview have used the words resistance and protest throughout. What you havent referred to is riots and rioting and rioters. But all around the world we have seen the pictures from numerous American Cities where young people in particular have been engaged in violence, as well as expressions of protest. And i am wondering for you, and you referred to your own background in the us civil rights commission, your longtime record as a campaigner, whether you are deeply disappointed by the degree to which there has been violence, albeit limited, mixed in with the widespread protest. Limited, mixed in with the widespread protestlj limited, mixed in with the widespread protest. I wouldnt describe my reaction as disappointment. I would say that i expected some of this kind of violence, for many reasons, and every protest that has ta ken violence, for many reasons, and every protest that has taken place there have been some people who have engaged in violence, even going all the way back to the Civil Rights Movement there were some people who didnt accept non violence. And there are groups of people who want to create violence. If you go all the way back to the 1990 protests against the wto in seattle, and against the wto in seattle, and against globalism, there were anti fascists or there were people on the left who broke things and rioted in the streets, and they have been involved somehow in some of these others, and there are people who just loot because they have the opportunity to loot. I think that what has been pleasing to me is, one, the small numbers of people who are engaged in that kind of behaviour. They are so overwhelmed by the number of people who are protesting and have their eyes distinctly on the prize, and doing something about Police Reform and the underlying causes of continued racism in our country. So what do you say to those young people, both black and white, it has to be said, whom we have seen who are throwing bottles at the police, who are trashing stores, sometimes taking goods from within stores, spraying graffiti across towns and cities . What do you say to them . |j graffiti across towns and cities . What do you say to them . I would not say anything to them until i understood, in each case, why they we re understood, in each case, why they were doing it. There may be some people who are just so angry that they are doing it, and there may be others who are criminal. They are in fa ct, others who are criminal. They are in fact, in some cases, destroying the property of black businesspeople and the like, who in minneapolis i saw patrolling themselves to protect their own businesses. What i would say is that this whole series of protests were set off by the arsonists, as it were, which was the Police Officer who put his knee on mr floyds neck and killed him. And so mr floyds neck and killed him. And so therefore. And the other officers who stood around, and any repercussions from that that go on, some of them may be unfortunate, and a lot of them are very positive, have to be traced back to that episode. Let me talk to you, and you area episode. Let me talk to you, and you are a Civil Rights Campaigner, and you have championed the cause of equality and justice for black people for a very long time. How important is it to you that right now, the campaign, whether it be black lives matter or the wider Civil Rights Campaign . Reaches out to middle america, because it strikes me that, over many years, middle americans, who may not like what they see of the brutality at times and the militarisation of Police Forces who work in black communities, they may not like it, but they somehow managed to look away or ignore it. You need to reach those people. How important is it that you have a strategy for reaching white people . Well, i think there is a strategy for reaching them, andi there is a strategy for reaching them, and i think the strategy is in fa ct them, and i think the strategy is in fact working, because many of them ive seen people in the process where i am who have never protested anything before, and who come from the suburbs, and all white people, middle, you know, aged white people, who are out because they are so offended by the latency of what has been happening, and they see that, and so they want something done blatancy. They support law and order and the support having Police Protect them, and all that, but they simply cant wrap their minds around how we could have these obvious violations occur and not do anything about them. And the polls show that about them. And the polls show that a majority, by wide majorities, americans are in favour of doing something about this, no matter where they live. Yes, you know what, the polls are interesting. Youre absolutely right. The clear majority of americans reported that they oppose the Police Practices that we re oppose the Police Practices that were epitomised by what happened in minneapolis, they support the right to pre li peaceful protest, but also, im looking at onepoll recently that says 79 of americans polled say that the Property Damage caused by some demonstrators does in their view undermined the original intent of the protesters campaign after George Floyds death. That must be worrying. Well, its worrying in the sense that, even though, as i said before, you can trace the causes back to the episode where he was killed, that in fact you want more people to support the cause, so that you have a chance this time, which weve never had in any of these riots, there have been reports or protests. There have been reports after reports after reports, you can name all of the reports, a report on Police Practices when obama was president , which was neverfollowed through on. The guy who chaired it said that all it did was gathered dust. And youve never really get a handle on these problems, and never do anything about the underlying causes, which is a much more difficult problem than just dealing strictly with the police. So i hope now we can get something done, and that the losing or the burning or the violence doesnt undermine that. Right, so interesting question, and may be a challenge for you, professor barry. Are you ready to metaphorically embrace people you might never have dreamt of embracing before in terms of this campaign for equality and justice . Professor berry. Im thinking for example of mitt romney, longtime republican politician and senator who walked in one of the black lives matter protest marches just last weekend and professed himself to be a supporter of black lives matter. Some black people will say, hang on a minute, that is ridiculous. This is pure hypocrisy. We are not ready to work with people like mitt romney. What do you say . to work with people like mitt romney. What do you say . I say that i knew mitt romneys father, george, when i was at the university of michigan. He was governor during the detroit riots in 1967, and when he was secretary during the nixon administration, he was a very wonderful, moderate republican and a man with high ethics. And when his son came on the scene, i kept hoping he was going to be like his father. Maybe as time goes on he is becoming more like him, and if so, thats great. Let me get to donald trump. Youve referred to him already. He and we all know it now, over the last couple of weeks has been tweeting like crazy. And some of those tweets have stuck in peoples mines. The one im looking at right now is, any difficulty, hes talking about what happens on the streets, and we will assume control. When the losing starts, the shooting starts. He told repeatedly about dominating the streets. He told governors if you dont dominate, you are wasting your time. They are going to run over you. You are going to look like jerks. These are the words of the president of the united states. Do you believe that donald trump, in his approach to this, it has been fundamentally different from every other president of your lifetime . No, he hasnt been fundamentally different. He is mostly inarticulate and mostly clumsy, in what he says and mostly clumsy, in what he says and what he does, which creates great problems for him. So you dont buy generaljames mattiss claim, accusation i guess you could call it, about donald trump, which he wrote just the other day . Donald trump is the first president in my lifetime he doesnt try to unite the american people, who doesnt even pretend to try. He tries to divide us. Pretend to try. He tries to divide us. You are saying that is misguided, that that is to misunderstand what has been happening in america, are you . misunderstand what has been happening in america, are you . I say that we are divided, and we have been divided, and more polarisation since trump was elected in 2016, and which when he did not get a majority of the popular vote. And was elected only by the electoral college. We have been divided, and in any poll, a national poll, he is likely to be on the losing end, because most people never voted for him in the first place, and never supported him, and arent planning to anytime soon. As for general mattis, i never make statements about something never happened before, and this one is the first one. There have been other president s, historically, who have done things that we regarded as unconstitutional. When abra ham lincoln took measures to repress the south at the beginning of the civil war, there is a book called about the constitutional invasions, that he made of Civil Liberties and all sorts of things. There have been president who did these things. I think that trump, the way he does it, a lot of what trump does, his problem is how he does it, what he says about it, his timing on everything, which creates a problem for him. But i understand that he and general mattis did not get along. Lets leave that alone and focus on what is now. You publicly supported the publicly campaigned, and this is the publicly campaigned, and this is the world that has been used, defund, Police Forces in america, particularly with those with what you would regard as poor records when it comes to upholding civil rights for black communities. We have already seen in minneapolis the council there, the city council has overwhelmingly voted to dismantle the city police fourth from california to new york, we have had other senior politicians are saying that financing for the police should be cut and donald trump will simply say this is a licence for a breakdown in law and order. I think its perfectly reasonable to say that the police have become militarised in the united states. Ever sincejohnson militarised in the united states. Ever since johnson and the militarised in the united states. Ever sincejohnson and the nixon administrations when they were given all sorts of military equipment in which their training seemed to be as if they were an occupying force, rather than officer friendly. Who was there to help you, and that is u nfortu nate was there to help you, and that is unfortunate and more and more resources have gone that way. They do not understand the underlying causes of crime. Sorry to interrupt you but. I am committed to Community Programmes and that way help us in maintaining lord and order and roof form the police. Forgive my very rude interruption but im speaking to you asa interruption but im speaking to you as a renowned civil rights campania, historian and academic, how do you think these words will go down, you know we talked about this before, in white suburban communities across america where they were either someone america where they were either someone like you calling for the dismantling of Police Forces stop in the first place, i did not call for the first place, i did not call for the dismantling of Police Forces. Its unfortunate that the label they have used is misinterpreted and hard to explain and my own Analysis Shows that when something is hard to explain you are not going to get it, 0k . Explain you are not going to get it, ok . So explain you are not going to get it, 0k . Sol explain you are not going to get it, ok . So i understand that but i think its perfectly reasonable to talk about reforming the police and reasonable to talk about not finding military equipment for the police. It is perfectly reasonable to talk about taking some of the funding and using it for Community Programmes are people who work with the police and soa are people who work with the police and so a shift in funding for some of these things will which will not harm law and order and which may in fa ct harm law and order and which may in fact improve it if people understood that. They would not be irritated if they understood that, but they would be irritated if they are opposed to the label which sounds like you will dismantle the police force, which is not what i am for most people who say that up for that. I wonder if you are mindful of what happens in minneapolis when the mare, regarded by many a pretty progressive liberal sort of guy ashley town mac, he said that here in good conscience could not support the abolition of the Police Department which the council has been pushing for the town mare. I agree with him, noone should abolish the police force in the country and you use the police force to maintain order and suppress criminal behaviour, yes. But the point im making is that hundreds of black lives matter campaigners around at the time in this public forum cheered him and did not want to listen to him and ultimately he had to end the speech and there will bea had to end the speech and there will be a Pressure Point where the more radical elements within the campaign booed him will not be satisfied with anything short of very radical measures, measures which may frighten, if that is the right word, or be very difficult for other elements in the liberal coalition to accept . The experience and history shows that when you have radical elements calling for things that are radical, which are not going to happen, it sometimes pushes the middle to enact reforms that are not radical but they at least will make some kind of positive change. That is the history of it. We have to end ina is the history of it. We have to end in a moment but to quick thoughts, one is about the systemic discrimination. We know this still exists in america. You have been campaigning for 50 years but during those 50 years you have not managed to change things in terms of the disproportionate imprisonment of black men in the penal system in the united states, unemployment much higherfor black united states, unemployment much higher for black people, united states, unemployment much higherfor black people, a united states, unemployment much higher for black people, a whole raft of measures by which black Americans Still see that in many ways, their existence is second compared to their White Brothers and sisters. Is that going to change, do you believe, any time soon . Some are talking about a tipping point. Do you have any faith that systemically discrimination will change . Systemic discrimination will change . Systemic discrimination which now we call White Supremacy in the united states, the young people call it that, and it is, and that is the history, will not go away unless we understand that politics by itself will not do it. Voting is very important but we have been voting for yea rs important but we have been voting for years now. Resistance, important but we have been voting foryears now. Resistance, protest, litigation, all those things added to politics can make some change in that and we have made some change over the years. We also the glass is half full and it is half empty and we can continue to make some but we are not going to make total change u nless we are not going to make total change unless we continue to resist and show some resistance to what goes on. A final thought, show some resistance to what goes on. A finalthought, about show some resistance to what goes on. A final thought, about politics, and you framed it to say, look, dont get obsessed about politics, its about much more than that. Nonetheless, america this november faces a fundamental choice. You had told me what you think of donald trump. What im interested to hear is what you think ofjoe biden. There are many worry thatjoe biden, the democratic candidate for president , cannot and will not be agent or meaningful change because of his own record when it comes to race issues. As a historian, what you say to that . We have a fundamental problem, we have two parts, republican and democratic. Most of the officials in the cities whether police abuse has taken place and people have been murdered are controlled by democrats. The mayors in Minneapolis Council and they have been democrats for many years in the cities and in fact they seem not to have made the changes that need to be made. Joe biden has historically on race issues, most of the time, not been very brave or courageous and infact not been very brave or courageous and in fact done some things by admission that have undermined black people, like supporting mass incarceration and the like. I do not think thatjoe biden, i thinkjoe biden will be more pleasant to deal with, i assume he will win, he has to when given the circumstances in the country and if he does not, that would be really ironic and it would be more peaceful and pleasant in the country but i dont expect any great change on the issues of race and White Supremacy in the country. Mary frances berry, a great pleasure to talk to you, thank you for talking to us to me on hardtalk. talk to you, thank you for talking to us to me on hardtalk. I love hardtalk we love to hear that. Thank you very much indeed. Hello there. Well take a look at the uk unsettled weather picture injust a moment, but first of all, one place that has seen some very high temperatures over the last 2a hours is the arctic circle, where temperatures reached 30 degree celsius on tuesday. Amazing to think temperatures can get that high that far north, but they do from time to time. That, though, could be a newjune record for that particular area. Looking at our weather picture, it is unsettled. We saw rain gathering across the north west of the uk yesterday, and that was associated with an area of low pressure, and that low pressure is moving right over the heart of the United Kingdom for today. So we are looking at an unsettled day. Often its going to be cloudy, often were looking at spells of rain, that could be quite lengthy spells of rain and, at times, pretty heavy as well. Perhaps some of the heaviest bursts of rain working across the western side of the countries, so wales, maybe north west england. There will be some areas that dont see too much in the way of rain. But i think they are going to be the lucky few. For most of us, it stays pretty wet. Temperatures between 1a and around 18 degrees for most of us. Now, once that area of rain has moved south, you might think, phew, we got rid of it, but, no, this particular area of low pressure is going to deepen and spin back northwards. All said and done, well be seeing the low influence our weather for the next six days, so we better get used to it, i suppose. On thursday, we have further outbreaks of rain, moving in across parts of england and wales. Some of the heaviest falls of rain could be working in across parts of north east england. It looks like it could turn very wet here for a time. And increasingly, ithink, as we go on through the next few days, when the rain does come along, its got a tendency to become quite heavy. Thursday is going to be a windier day, and its going to start to feel a little bit more humid as well. Now, for friday, weve got further bands of rain pushing their way northwards. Probably the heaviest coming into southern parts of england and southern wales. A real chance of some thundery downpours here, might even see some localised surface water flooding for a time. Generally, the less Rainy Weather will be across the north west of the country, but nowhere is immune from seeing an odd downpour. And that trend continues on into the weekend as well. For saturday, its a day of sunshine and heavy thundery showers. Those showers could be quite intense. Perhaps some of the heaviest of them towards wales and parts of south west england. Its a humid day, temperatures are rising. Were looking at highs up to 24. But it is going to stay unsettled. This is bbc news, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Im samantha simmonds. The funeral of george floyd, whose death in Police Custody caused global outrage, hears impassioned pleas for racialjustice. Until we know the price for black life is the same as the price for white life, were going to keep coming back to these situations over and over again. President trump provokes criticism by accusing an elderly protester who was injured by the police of being an extremist provocateur. Protests in jerusalem and ramallah over the killing of an autistic palestinian man. Israel says a full investigation is under way. We are not just we are notjust protesting for the palestinian