Transcripts For BBCNEWS Sunday 20240703

Morning, morning. With us to reflect on the winners and losers, mark harper, the Transport Secretary, and pat mcfadden, labours campaign chief. How much sleep have you had . Not enou~h how much sleep have you had . Not enough the how much sleep have you had . Not enough the same how much sleep have you had . Not enough the same election how much sleep have you had . Not enough the same election due i how much sleep have you had . Not enough the same election due to| how much sleep have you had . Not i enough the same election due to be one niaht, enough the same election due to be one night. One enough the same election due to be one night, one day, enough the same election due to be one night, one day, now enough the same election due to be one night, one day, now it enough the same election due to be one night, one day, now it is enough the same election due to be one night, one day, now it is a one night, one day, now it is a whole one night, one day, now it is a whole weekend. We one night, one day, now it is a whole weekend. One night, one day, now it is a whole weekend. ~. , whole weekend. We have all got the call free on. Whole weekend. We have all got the call free on, hope whole weekend. We have all got the call free on, hope you whole weekend. We have all got the call free on, Hope You Have whole weekend. We have all got the call free on, Hope You Have got whole weekend. We have all got the | call free on, Hope You Have got some at home too. The coffee on. Alsojoining us, the former home secretary Suella Braverman, who warns the tories are facing wipe out. And with us throughout, conservative former minister paul scully, scoop machine pippa crerar, the Political Editor of the guardian, and former labour cabinet minister jacqui smith. Your old council has gone right, quite a lot to smile about this morning. Gone red. And Yolande Makola from the Rwandan Government. Will ministers� controversial plans to deport thousnads of migrants work . Lets start with the news. The telegraph splashes with labours mayoral victories. Keir starmer tells the observer there needs to be an election to end the zombie government. The Sunday Express says, were doomed and rishi sunak� s a lame duck. But no sign of the election on the mail front page, which talks about the king. The mirror has a royal story too about prince andrews crumbling home. Paul, looking at these results, what message do think the public has sent to your party . The . Message do think the public has sent to your party . To your party . They have really sent a hard message to your party . They have really sent a hard message for to your party . They have really sent a hard message for us to your party . They have really sent a hard message for us to to your party . They have really sent a hard message for us to take, to your party . They have really sent a hard message for us to take, that | a hard message for us to take, that we are in a very bad place as the Conservative Party. It is always brutal for councillors that take the brunt of that, and you have seen from andy street, when he has done a fantasticjob in the West Midlands, birmingham has been bankrupted by a labour council, but he has taken the brunt of it. We need people like ben houchen to take up the mantle and showcase how conservatives can govern in a moderate way. But we have to take a breath is a national party, show some humility. What party, show some humility. What messaue party, show some humility. What message do party, show some humility. What message do you party, show some humility. What message do you take party, show some humility. What message do you take from party, show some humility. What message do you take from it . I l party, show some humility. What message do you take from it . I think the message message do you take from it . I think the message we message do you take from it . I think the message we readers message do you take from it . I think the message we readers from the message we readers from redditch, where i thought my first election redditch, where i thought my first election of 30 years ago, through to rushmore, election of 30 years ago, through to rushmore, the home of the british army, rushmore, the home of the british army, labourwere rushmore, the home of the british army, labour were winning across local army, labour were winning across local government. Rushmoor. An enormous local government. Rushmoor. An enormous swing to labour in Blackpool South. 0n the West Midlands last night, where some thought midlands last night, where some thought we werent going to win, we did, and thought we werent going to win, we did, and these are the areas that labour did, and these are the areas that labour needs to win for victory in a general labour needs to win for victory in a General Election, and as keir starmer General Election, and as keir starmer says, lets stop messing about, starmer says, lets stop messing about, put starmer says, lets stop messing about, put the country first, have a general about, put the country first, have a General Election as soon as possible. General election as soon as possible General Election as soon as ossible. �. General election as soon as ossible. , possible. And looking at both sides and the smaller possible. And looking at both sides and the smaller parties, possible. And looking at both sides and the smaller parties, what possible. And looking at both sides and the smaller parties, what is. And the smaller parties, what is your analysis of what we have seen . It looks that the National Polling that we it looks that the National Polling that we have it looks that the National Polling that we have seen it looks that the National Polling that we have seen putting it looks that the National Pollingi that we have seen putting labour ahead that we have seen putting labour ahead consistently that we have seen putting labour ahead consistently is that we have seen putting labour ahead consistently is pretty ahead consistently is pretty accurate ahead consistently is pretty accurate and ahead consistently is pretty accurate and that ahead consistently is pretty accurate and that we ahead consistently is pretty accurate and that we are i ahead consistently is pretty accurate and that we are in| ahead consistently is pretty. Accurate and that we are in a situation accurate and that we are in a situation that accurate and that we are in a situation that looks accurate and that we are in a situation that looks pretty. Accurate and that we are in a i situation that looks pretty bad accurate and that we are in a situation that looks pretty bad for rishi sunak situation that looks pretty bad for rishi sunak. There situation that looks pretty bad for rishi sunak. There was situation that looks pretty bad for rishi sunak. There was one rishi sunak. There was one tryelection. Rishi sunak. There was one by election, the rishi sunak. There was one by election, the new rishi sunak. There was one by election, the new parliamentary seat, by election, the new parliamentary seat. But by election, the new parliamentary seat. But even by election, the new parliamentary seat, but even there, by election, the new parliamentary seat, but even there, the by election, the new parliamentary seat, but even there, the reform. Seat, but even there, the reform party seat, but even there, the reform party was seat, but even there, the reform party was snapping seat, but even there, the reform party was snapping at seat, but even there, the reform party was snapping at the seat, but even there, the reform party was snapping at the heels l seat, but even there, the Reformi Party was snapping at the heels of the conservatives, party was snapping at the heels of the conservatives, almost party was snapping at the heels of the conservatives, almost beating them the conservatives, almost beating them to the conservatives, almost beating them to second the conservatives, almost beating them to second place, the conservatives, almost beating them to second place, and the conservatives, almost beating them to second place, and labouri the conservatives, almost beating them to second place, and labour won a had them to second place, and labour won a had track them to second place, and labour won a bad back with them to second place, and labour won a bad back with a them to second place, and labour won a bad back with a huge them to second place, and labour won a bad back with a huge swing, them to second place, and labour won a bad back with a huge swing, and them to second place, and labour won a bad back with a huge swing, and if. A bad back with a huge swing, and if that were a bad back with a huge swing, and if that were replicated a bad back with a huge swing, and if that were replicated across a bad back with a huge swing, and if that were replicated across the that were replicated across the country. That were replicated across the country, it would make that were replicated across the country, it would make keir. That were replicated across the country, it would make keir starmer a dead country, it would make Keir Starmer A Dead Set country, it would make Keir Starmer A Dead Set for country, it would make Keir Starmer A Dead Set for downing country, it would make Keir Starmer A Dead Set for downing street. Country, it would make Keir Starmer A Dead Set for downing street. But. A dead set for downing street. But what a dead set for downing street. What about the calculations that a dead set for downing street. What about the calculations that say there is only nine Points Difference in the overall share . So labour isnt guaranteed a majority. I isnt guaranteed a maority. I think it looks, at isnt guaranteed a maority. I think it looks, at the h isnt guaranteed a majority. I think it looks, at the moment, isnt guaranteed a majority. I think it looks, at the moment, that isnt guaranteed a majority. I think i it looks, at the moment, that labour will he it looks, at the moment, that labour will he in it looks, at the moment, that labour will be in downing it looks, at the moment, that labour will be in downing street, it looks, at the moment, that labour will be in downing street, as it looks, at the moment, that labour will be in downing street, as you will be in downing street, as you say, will be in downing street, as you say, it will be in downing street, as you say, it is will be in downing street, as you say. It is about will be in downing street, as you say, it is about how will be in downing street, as you say, it is about how big will be in downing street, as you say, it is about how big the say, it is about how big the maiority say, it is about how big the majority ends say, it is about how big the majority ends up say, it is about how big the majority ends up being, say, it is about how big the i majority ends up being, and say, it is about how big the majority ends up being, and that will he majority ends up being, and that will be crucial majority ends up being, and that will be crucial for majority ends up being, and that will be crucial for them majority ends up being, and that will be crucial for them in majority ends up being, and that will be crucial for them in terms| majority ends up being, and that i will be crucial for them in terms of how they will be crucial for them in terms of how they end will be crucial for them in terms of howthey end up will be crucial for them in terms of how they end up running will be crucial for them in terms of how they end up running the will be crucial for them in terms of i how they end up running the country, what sort how they end up running the country, what sort of how they end up running the country, what sort of freedom how they end up running the country, what Sort Of Freedom Keir how they end up running the country, what Sort Of Freedom Keir starmer. What sort of freedom Keir Starmer Has. What sort of freedom Keir Starmer Has labour what sort of freedom Keir Starmer Has. Labour has what sort of freedom Keir Starmer Has. Labour has some what sort of freedom Keir Starmer Has. Labour has some way what sort of freedom Keir Starmer Has. Labour has some way to what sort of freedom Keir Starmer Has. Labour has some way to go, i what Sort Of Freedom Keir starmer. Has. Labour has some way to go, the interesting has. Labour has some way to go, the interesting thing has. Labour has some way to go, the interesting thing about has. Labour has some way to go, the interesting thing about the has. Labour has some way to go, the interesting thing about the result interesting thing about the result is that interesting thing about the result is that it interesting thing about the result is that it shows interesting thing about the result is that it shows they interesting thing about the result is that it shows they are interesting thing about the result is that it shows they are winning i interesting thing about the result. Is that it shows they are winning in all different is that it shows they are winning in all different types is that it shows they are winning in all different types of is that it shows they are winning in all different types of places, is that it shows they are winning in all different types of places, so all different types of places, so winning all different types of places, so winning track all different types of places, so winning back 2019 all different types of places, so winning back 2019 areas all different types of places, so winning back 2019 areas that. All different types of places, so. Winning back 2019 areas that they lost to winning back 2019 areas that they lost to boris winning back 2019 areas that they lost to Boris Johnson, winning back 2019 areas that they lost to Boris Johnson, winning winning back 2019 areas that they lost to borisjohnson, winning in. Lost to borisjohnson, winning in brerit lost to borisjohnson, winning in brexit areas lost to borisjohnson, winning in brexit areas again, lost to borisjohnson, winning in brexit areas again, and lost to borisjohnson, winning in brexit areas again, and also lost to borisjohnson, winning in| brexit areas again, and also their own vote brexit areas again, and also their own vote was brexit areas again, and also their own vote was holding brexit areas again, and also their own vote was holding up brexit areas again, and also their own vote was holding up in brexit areas again, and also their own vote was holding up in somej brexit areas again, and also their. Own vote was holding up in some of their key own vote was holding up in some of their key support own vote was holding up in some of their key support as own vote was holding up in some of their key support as well. Own vote was holding up in some of their key support as well. In own vote was holding up in some of their key support as well. Their key support as well. In any election, their key support as well. In any election. The their key support as well. In any election, the map their key support as well. In any election, the map is their key support as well. In any election, the map isjust their key support as well. In any election, the map isjust as election, the map isjust as important as the numbers, so the big headlines, as we have been hearing, disastrous for the tories in lots of places. The loss of all bar one of the ii mayoral contests, defeat in the Blackpool South by0election with a massive swing to labour, and third place in the Council Elections after the lib dems. The Prime Ministers fond of saying stick to the plan, but voters dont seem to like it much. Reckons the tories have to change course or be wiped out. You are warning of a political earthquake, why . The you are warning of a political earthquake, why . You are warning of a political earthquake, why . The plan is not workinu. Earthquake, why . The plan is not working and earthquake, why . The plan is not working and i earthquake, why . The plan is not working. And i despair earthquake, why . The plan is not working. And i despair at earthquake, why . The plan is not working. And i despair at these. Working. And i despair at these terrible results. There is no spinning these results, there is no disguising the fact that these have been terrible Election Results for the conservatives, and they suggest that we are heading to a Labour Government, and that fills me with horror. I love my country, i care about my party, and i want us to win, andi about my party, and i want us to win, and i am urging the Prime Ministerto change win, and i am urging the Prime Minister to change course, to reflect on what the voters are telling us, and change the plan in the way that he is communicating and leading us. Iiii the way that he is communicating and leading us. Iii it the way that he is communicating and leadin us. ,. , leading us. If it is that dire, why not change leading us. If it is that dire, why not change the leading us. If it is that dire, why not change the leader . Leading us. If it is that dire, why not change the leader . Listen, | leading us. If it is that dire, whyj not change the leader . Listen, i ust dont not change the leader . Listen, i just dont think not change the leader . Listen, i just dont think that not change the leader . Listen, i just dont think that is not change the leader . Listen, i just dont think that is a not change the leader . Listen, i just dont think that is a feasible prospect right now, we dont have enough time, and it is impossible for anyone new to change our fortunes, to be honest, there is no superman or super woman who can do it. Rishi sunak has been leading us for 18 months and making these decisions, these are the consequences of the decisions, and he needs to fix it. He needs to fix it. What does he need to do he needs to fix it. What does he need to do differently, he needs to fix it. What does he need to do differently, then . I he needs to fix it. What does he i need to do differently, then . What would it look like . I need to do differently, then . What would it look like . Would it look like . I think the roblem would it look like . I think the problem is would it look like . I think the problem is that would it look like . I think the problem is that our would it look like . I think the problem is that our voters would it look like . I think the | problem is that our voters are would it look like . I think the problem is that our voters are on strike, they are not coming out to support us, we have seen that with the turnouts and by losing conservative strongholds. When i was knocking on doors in the midlands, london, the south coast, conservative voters were saying very often they are lifelong voters of your party but you are not a Conservative Party any more, and we cannot vote for you. What does the Prime Minister need to do . He needs to show people that he really cares about the things that he has talked about, he needs to lower taxes in a way that people will feel, not tweaking around the edges. If he is serious about migration, he needs to put a cap on legal migration, take us out of the European Convention on human rights. That is how you send a message that he is serious about stopping the boats. Message that he is serious about stopping the boats. Where is your evidence that stopping the boats. Where is your evidence that those stopping the boats. Where is your evidence that those changes stopping the boats. Where is your| evidence that those changes would make any difference . Because rishi sunak has cut taxes, he has hardened to the laws on migration, he has, by some people in your party, moved too far to the right. So where is your evidence that a further move would get your vote is back . The evidence is that people get your vote is back . The evidence is that people are get your vote is back . The evidence is that people are not get your vote is back . The evidence is that people are not voting get your vote is back . The evidence is that people are not voting for is that people are not voting for what he is doing, because they dont believe that we are serious about some of these issues. They dont believe that we are serious about theseissues believe that we are serious about these issues because they do not feel the benefits. On tax cuts, if you made a bold offer on raising the personal threshold, people would feel the benefits. Because we are tweaking and just tightening some of the nuts and bolts in a complex system, ratherthan the nuts and bolts in a complex system, rather than actually making a meaningful offer to people, people are not convinced by what we are saying. Are not convinced by what we are sa inc. �. ,. Saying. But where the conservative pa has saying. But where the Conservative Party has put saying. But where the Conservative Party has put up saying. But where the Conservative Party has put up a saying. But where the Conservative Party has put up a candidate saying. But where the Conservative Party has put up a candidate to saying. But where the conservative i party has put up a candidate to many people appear to be on the right in london, she lost. People appear to be on the right in london, she lost. Listen, in london we lost because london, she lost. Listen, in london we lost because of london, she lost. Listen, in london we lost because of the london, she lost. Listen, in london we lost because of the national we lost because of the National Partys mismanagement of the process. They botched the selection process, and really we did not run a good campaign, the candidate was unsupported, and that is why we lost. � , lost. Are there ministers in government lost. Are there ministers in government who lost. Are there ministers in government who share lost. Are there ministers in | government who share your lost. Are there ministers in government who share your view on this . ,. , , government who share your view on this . ,. ,. ,. , this . Yes, of course, i talked to man of this . Yes, of course, i talked to many of my this . Yes, of course, i talked to many of my colleagues this . Yes, of course, i talked to many of my colleagues who this . Yes, of course, i talked to many of my colleagues who are | many of my colleagues who are privately demoralised and incredibly concerned about the prospects. We are, at this rate, we will be lucky to have any conservative mps at the next election, and we need to fight, and im not willing to give up. It does me no favours to come here and say how it is and set out the difficult situation that we are in, but i owe that honesty to my colleagues, i all that to you and the british people, who are crying out for a Conservative Party to vote for. I out for a Conservative Party to vote for. ~ ,. , out for a Conservative Party to vote for. ~ ,. ,. ,. , for. I think some of our viewers miaht for. I think some of our viewers might feel. For. I think some of our viewers might feel, and for. I think some of our viewers might feel, and some for. I think some of our viewers might feel, and some others i for. I think some of our viewers might feel, and some others in| for. I think some of our viewers might feel, and some others in the party might feel, it is people who have been criticising the Prime Minister in public, people whove been playing political games and thinking about their own futures that are part of the problem here. I that are part of the problem here. I reject that, i am not in government, i am not making the decisions on our policies, i am i am not making the decisions on our policies, lam not i am not making the decisions on our policies, i am not there putting forward legislation to ban smoking and vote on petty cards, and we have voted more on that than on Meaningful Health fair rock form or fixing social care pedicabs. We are not delivering for the people, we are not delivering the policies that people want, and it is a disgrace that we are trailing up against labour, led by keir starmer, who has the charisma of a peanut, who has the charisma of a peanut, who is overseeing a party which is a rabble of hard left maniacs who would do brexit, open our borders, and indoctrinate our institutions and indoctrinate our institutions and our schools with politically correct madness. We shouldnt be trailing to the degree that we are against this labour party. Trailing to the degree that we are against this labour party. Given the turmoil in the changes against this labour party. Given the turmoil in the changes of against this labour party. Given the turmoil in the changes of later, against this labour party. Given the turmoil in the changes of later, all. Turmoil in the changes of later, all the noises off, the civil war, the bellyaching, do you believe there will be viewers thinking, actually, it is the conservatives are a rabble . And was there a plot being discussed to get rid of rishi sunak if everything was bad . Is it over . There is no point blaming those of us who are telling the truth for the problem is that we are facing. As i said, i am problem is that we are facing. As i said, lam not problem is that we are facing. As i said, i am not in charge, i am not in government. These decisions on policy, communication and campaigns are being made by rishi sunak and his team. ~. , are being made by rishi sunak and his team. ~. ,. , are being made by rishi sunak and his team. ~. ,. ,. , are being made by rishi sunak and his team. You i are being made by rishi sunak and i his team. You tell his team. Was there a plot . You tell me, i his team. Was there a plot . You tell me. I read his team. Was there a plot . You tell me. I read what his team. Was there a plot . You tell me, i read what you his team. Was there a plot . You tell me, i read what you read his team. Was there a plot . You tell me, i read what you read in his team. Was there a plot . You tell me, i read what you read in the me, i read what you read in the papers. The papers and journalists seem to like the subject about plotting. Seem to like the subect about lottin. � , seem to like the subect about lottin � , seem to like the subect about lottin. � ,. Plotting. Because it is important, it is about who plotting. Because it is important, it is about who is plotting. Because it is important, it is about who is going plotting. Because it is important, it is about who is going to plotting. Because it is important, it is about who is going to be plotting. Because it is important, it is about who is going to be the | it is about who is going to be the Prime Minister. Do you regret backing rishi sunak . Honestly, i do, because i backing rishi sunak . Honestly, i do, because i had backing rishi sunak . Honestly, i do, because i had assurances backing rishi sunak . Honestly, i do, because i had assurances that backing rishi sunak . Honestly, i do, because i had assurances that he because i had assurances that he would put a cap on legal migration, do something about the echr, and fix this transgender ideology in our schools. He hasnt done that. You know, i want our party to win, i want us to beat this feeble labour party, and i want to save our country from keir starmer. Im not going to give up, im still going to fight, even if it makes me unpopular, im going to speak the truth, because that is what the 400 councillors we lost this weekend deserve, that is what the authorities we lost this we deserve. We are not going to fix the problem unless we are honest about it and change course, with some humility, to what the voters are telling us. Thanks very much indeed for coming in this morning. We will be putting your points to mark harper in a few moments. But lets remind you what happened in those hundreds and hundreds of contests, what do they add up to . Heres the pollster luke tryl with his three top trends, starting with the by election in Blackpool South. The question was, could labour match the swings weve seen elsewhere this parliament . And the answer was yes. In fact, labour secured the third highest swing to them since the second world war. And you can see how labours by election performance has improved over the course of this parliament. What about ben houchens victory in tees valley . Can the conservatives take any comfort from that . Well, the truth is, ben houchen has a big personal vote, and you can see that by comparing how he did to how wed expect a generic tory to do based on National Voting intention. In the West Midlands, though, andy streets personal vote wasnt quite enough to carry him over the line, although again he still outperformed how youd expect the conservatives to do. Finally, what about the projected National Share . Thats how we might expect the parties to do if the whole of britain was voting. Well, before they took office the year later, we saw tony blair 16 points ahead of the conservatives, David Cameron was 15 points ahead of labour. Keir starmerjust nine points ahead of the conservatives in this round of elections. So does that mean the General Election might be closer than weve come to expect . Maybe, but youve also got to remember that in local elections, lots of people vote for smaller parties, and theyre unlikely to do the same in a General Election, which, of course, is still some months away. Mark harper, the Transport Secretary, has been taking all that in. Thank you forjoining us this morning. Yourformer thank you forjoining us this morning. Your former colleague Suella Braverman says you have to change your approach or you will die when it comes to the General Election. , when it comes to the General Election. ,. ,. , election. There are two aspects, first of all election. There are two aspects, first of all you election. There are two aspects, first of all you had election. There are two aspects, first of all you had a election. There are two aspects, first of all you had a piece election. There are two aspects, first of all you had a piece on i first of all you had a piece on polling day, if you look at analysis by some experts, it says that the performance over the last few days means we are looking at a hung parliament, labour would not get a majority, so that is a better position and means the election outcome is closer than the polls are suggesting so i think it is all to play for and the election is not a foregone conclusion. It is play for and the election is not a foregone conclusion. Foregone conclusion. It is all to la for foregone conclusion. It is all to play for when foregone conclusion. It is all to play for when you foregone conclusion. It is all to play for when you have foregone conclusion. It is all to play for when you have lost foregone conclusion. It is all to play for when you have lost all| foregone conclusion. It is all to l play for when you have lost all of these councillors around the country. These councillors around the count. I,. , these councillors around the count. , country. The analysis done by rawlinrs country. The analysis done by rawlings and country. The analysis done by rawlings and thresher country. The analysis done by rawlings and thresher says i country. The analysis done by rawlings and thresher says itj country. The analysis done by l rawlings and thresher says it is closer. On the point about policy, the Prime Ministers focusing on the countrys priorities, reducing taxes on working people, we have done it twice already this year, which takes time to feed through, focusing on stopping the boats, we have the Rwanda Legislation on the books, and finally reducing Waiting Times in the National Health service, those are the countrys priorities and the same for the Prime Minister and the government. The same for the Prime Minister and the government government. The country is telling ou at the government. The country is telling you at the ballot government. The country is telling you at the ballot box government. The country is telling you at the ballot box that government. The country is telling you at the ballot box that it government. The country is telling you at the ballot box that it does l you at the ballot box that it does not like what you are doing. It does not like what you are doing. It does not want to choose the conservatives at the moment. In all sorts of different contests, all corners of the country, and both sides of your party here this morning, paul scully, centre moderate conservative, and Suella Braverman, they say plainly you have to show humility, take a breath and do things differently. I humility, take a breath and do things differently. Things differently. I will not retend things differently. I will not pretend the things differently. I will not pretend the election things differently. I will not| pretend the Election Results things differently. I will not pretend the Election Results over the last few days were not disappointing. Disappointing to lose hard working local councillors. I was disappointed particularly by the nail biting narrow result yesterday in the West Midlands. As Transport Secretary i have worked very closely with andy street. find secretary i have worked very closely with andy street. With andy street. And you cancelled his bit of with andy street. And you cancelled his hit of hs2 with andy street. And you cancelled his bit of h52. That with andy street. And you cancelled his bit of h52. That illustrates his bit of h52. That illustrates something his bit of h52. That illustrates something important his bit of h52. That illustrates something important about i his bit of h52. That illustrates. Something important about the his bit of h52. That illustrates something important about the Prime Minister, he is interested in taking difficult decisions that might not be popular with everyone but that are in the long term interest of the country. Are in the longterm interest of the count. , �. , country. They werent in the long term interest country. They werent in the long term interest of country. They werent in the long term interest of andy country. They werent in the long term interest of andy street. Country. They werent in the long i term interest of andy street. Every enn we term interest of andy street. Every penny we saved term interest of andy street. Every penny we saved from term interest of andy street. Es penny we saved from cancelling the second phase of hs2 is being reinvested in transport and i was in the West Midlands a few weeks ago with andy street for the launch of a £1. 75 billion Midlands Rail hub improving the connectivity of birmingham. It improving the connectivity of birmingham. Improving the connectivity of birmingham. Improving the connectivity of birminuham. ,. , birmingham. It is not ust the last coule of birmingham. It is not ust the last couple of days. H birmingham. It is not ust the last couple of days, you birmingham. It is Notjust The Last couple of days, you got birmingham. It is Notjust The Last| couple of days, you got hammered birmingham. It is Notjust The Last. Couple of days, you got hammered in the local Council Elections last year as well. You have lost seven by elections under rishi sunak. If we can show you the roll call, and showed us to our viewers as well, the roll call of councils that you lost. Dorset to the lib dems. These are places labour is salivating at the prospect of taking your mp5. You have been losing under rishi sunak time and again. Do you need to change something . Change something . They are disappointing change something . They are disappointing results. Change something . They are disappointing results. I change something . They are disappointing results. I was. Disappointing results. Iwas campaigning with lots of people across the country and it is disappointing to lose hard working conservatives. Disappointing to lose hardworking conservatives. Disappointing to lose hardworking conservatives. Doesnt this give you evidence you conservatives. Doesnt this give you evidence you need conservatives. Doesnt this give you evidence you need to conservatives. Doesnt this give you evidence you need to do conservatives. Doesnt this give you evidence you need to do something | evidence you need to do something differently . And if you dont and just stick to the plan, are you not sticking your fingers in your years when the electorate is telling you they are not impressed . The message from the election they are not impressed . The message from the election success they are not impressed . The message from the election success in they are not impressed . The message from the election success in the from the election success in the tees valley was about having a plan and delivering on it. We have made progress on those priorities i was talking about, inflation is down to just over 3 from 11 . Ben talking about, inflation is down to just over 396 from 11 . Ben houchen in just over 396 from 1196. Ben houchen in tees valley just over 396 from 1196. Ben houchen in tees valley seems just over 396 from 1196. Ben houchen in tees valley seems to just over 396 from 1196. Ben houchen in tees valley seems to have just over 396 from 1196. Ben houchen in tees valley seems to have been l in tees valley seems to have been able to communicate to his voters that he can achieve things but rishi sunak doesnt seem able to communicate to voters that he is achieving things. Some of your own Council Leaders who have lost, andrewjefferies, former Council Leader of andrew jefferies, former Council Leader of thurrock andrewjefferies, former Council Leader of thurrock council. That is one of your own side who lost this week who said they dont like the national plan. Another, former leader of basildon council. He said there is a real dissatisfaction with people on the ground. Iloathed there is a real dissatisfaction with people on the ground. There is a real dissatisfaction with people on the ground. What i would sa is that people on the ground. What i would say is that the people on the ground. What i would say is that the plan people on the ground. What i would say is that the plan is people on the ground. What i would say is that the plan is about say is that the plan is about delivering and it is working but we havent got to the end of it yet. Inflation was 11 when the Prime Minister became Prime Minister, is now 3. 1, not all the way down to the target of 2 by the bank of england, where they can start cutting Interest Rates, and we have cut illegal migration but we have not completed that plan yet. The Rwanda Legislation is through parliament, opposed every step of the way by the labour party and the lib dems who voted against it hundreds of times, but now we have it on the books we can get the flights going, a steady rhythm, which will change the incentives and have a Deterrent Effect and will continue delivering on that policy. Effect and will continue delivering on that policy effect and will continue delivering on that policy. After these results, eole on that policy. After these results, eo le will on that policy. After these results, people will appreciate on that policy. After these results, people will appreciate you on that policy. After these results, people will appreciate you are on that policy. After these results, people will appreciate you are a i people will appreciate you are a loyal minister, but after these results you are not going to change anything . You willjust stick results you are not going to change anything . You will just stick to results you are not going to change anything . You willjust stick to the anything . You will just stick to the plan, anything . You willjust stick to the plan, to use your phrase . Brute anything . You willjust stick to the plan, to use your phrase . We have a [an and plan, to use your phrase . We have a plan and it plan, to use your phrase . We have a plan and it is plan, to use your phrase . We have a plan and it is working. Plan, to use your phrase . We have a plan and it is working. Voters plan, to use your phrase . We have a plan and it is working. Voters are i plan and it is working. Voters are tellin plan and it is working. Voters are telling you plan and it is working. Voters are telling you that plan and it is working. Voters are telling you that they plan and it is working. Voters are telling you that they dont plan and it is working. Voters are telling you that they dont like i plan and it is working. Voters are telling you that they dont like it. J telling you that they dont like it. I think people want to see delivery, they want to see inflation continuing to come down, they want to see the boats stopped, nhs Waiting Lists continuing to fall, we have made a lot of progress but we are not all the way they are. Is have made a lot of progress but we are not all the way they are. Are not all the way they are. Is the roblem are not all the way they are. Is the problem not are not all the way they are. Is the problem not that are not all the way they are. Is the problem not that the are not all the way they are. Is the problem not that the public are not all the way they are. Is the problem not that the public is i problem not that the public is clearly, from a lot of elections and by elections, people clearly do not like what you are offering and people in your own party, whether they are paul scully on one side or Suella Braverman on the other, they are saying now is a moment to have humility, take a breath and think about doing things differently. I am about doing things differently. I am clear about the about doing things differently. I n clear about the results of the election that they were not what we. , � , election that they were not what we. � ,. , election that they were not what we. � ,. , election that they were not what we. , ,. , we. Thats not my question. Do you not see that we. Thats not my question. Do you not see that people we. Thats not my question. Do you not see that people in we. Thats not my question. Do you not see that people in your we. Thats not my question. Do you not see that people in your own i not see that people in your own party as well as in the country are saying please do things differently. The public want us to focus on the things they care about. Polls are very clear, the public care about the. We have had a pandemic, the war in ukraine driving up Energy Prices where we had to stand behind the public on both of those, and that had a consequence for public spending, for not being able to reduce taxes as fast as we would like, but those were the right decisions that the Prime Minister took when he was chancellor, to back the country, put that money into protecting millions ofjobs, thousands of businesses, but they have consequences and people know they have to be paid for, so that has been a very difficult set of things to work through so we are not yet at the point where people can see all the benefits and thats why we will continue to deliver. 50 see all the benefits and thats why we will continue to deliver. We will continue to deliver. So you dont need we will continue to deliver. So you dont need to we will continue to deliver. So you dont need to do we will continue to deliver. So you dont need to do anything dont need to do anything differently . Sometimes people get to a point with the government where they stop listening and it feels like the mood is so done, so exhausted, do you worry you might be at that stage . Trio. Exhausted, do you worry you might be at that stage . At that stage . No, because i have been out on at that stage . No, because i have been out on the at that stage . No, because i have been out on the doorstep at that stage . No, because i have i been out on the doorstep across the country from cornwall to tees valley talking to people and listening to them, importantly, and they are engaging in these conversations and they want us to continue driving down inflation and help with The Cost Of Living, to cut taxes, which we have been doing. Pauli cost of living, to cut taxes, which we have been doing. Cost of living, to cut taxes, which we have been doing. Paul scully and Suella Braverman we have been doing. Paul scully and Suella Braverman both we have been doing. Paul scully and Suella Braverman both said we have been doing. Paul scully and Suella Braverman both said this i Suella Braverman both said this morning that this message from the public is so serious we have to do something different. Public is so serious we have to do something different. If you look at a lot of low something different. If you look at a lot of low turnout, something different. If you look at a lot of low turnout, a something different. If you look at a lot of low turnout, a lot something different. If you look at a lot of low turnout, a lot of i something different. If you look at a lot of low turnout, a lot of our i a lot of low turnout, a lot of our voters did not come out to support our candidates this time, which is very clear, so we have to make sure when we get to the election, it is a choice between who will be Prime Minister at the end of the year, rishi sunak or keir starmer, we have to set out what we have delivered and what we will do going forward. We have a plan and labour does not. There is a risk in that election that people will go back to square one and lose all the benefits they have had in getting public spending under control, cutting taxes. Labour has made it clear it will not deport all of those people who came to the country illegally, they effectively will have an amnesty. fin country illegally, they effectively will have an amnesty. Will have an amnesty. On the migration will have an amnesty. On the migration point, will have an amnesty. On the migration point, later will have an amnesty. On the migration point, later in i will have an amnesty. On the migration point, later in the l migration point, later in the programme we will hear from the Rwandan Government, a spokesperson for them. Rwandan government, a spokesperson forthem. She Rwandan Government, a spokesperson for them. She could not guarantee that rwanda would be able to take all of the migrants that you wish to deport. There are about 40,000 people and she could not guarantee they would all be able to be processed and accommodated in rwanda. Do you have a plan b . Brute rwanda. Do you have a plan b . We have a rwanda. Do you have a plan b . Have a clear plan to start flights going in 10 12 weeks, which is being worked on clearly by the home office, and we want to get a steady rhythm of flights going to rwanda through the balance of this year and we will continue working closely with the Rwandan Government on the Partnership Agreement we have got which has all the safeguards in place people want to see, and if you can set up a system of deterrent through those flights you will break the Business Model of the groups, the Business Model of the groups, the organised crime groups which traffic people across a very Dangerous Watery in the channel, and thatis Dangerous Watery in the channel, and that is what people want to see. Reducing the number of people coming here illegally by one third at a time it has been going up in the eu. It depends how you count it. It it depends how you count it. It doesnt. If you compare last year to this year, is down by one third but up this year, is down by one third but up heavily in the eu. I accept there is more to do and the public one is to deliver on that clear commitment. Thank you very much. You have had an extremely busy few days and not enough sleep so we are grateful to you for coming in. Labours been celebrating this weekend. Yesterday afternoon, sadiq khan comfortably won a third term as mayor of london, and then last night, after a series of recounts, Richard Parker won a knife edge victory to become the first labour West Midlands mayor. Phenomenal, said keir starmer. The tories felt that they were entitled to victory here, that they could use andy street as some sort of crutch for rishi sunaks weak leadership, that they didnt have to be in touch with the priorities of the people. We ran a completely different campaign. But it wasnt all rosy for labour. It lost control of Oldham Council after losing seats to independent candidates who used to be labour but left over gaza. And it lost out to the greens in bristol, whove become the Largest Party there. Im joined now by pat mcfadden, labours campaign chief. We appreciate you putting your alarm on again. Lets start with where there were problems, you lost control of Oldham Council, your lost seats to the greens in newcastle and bristol. Do you admit that the approach you took to gaza has cost you . Approach you took to gaza has cost ou . ~. , approach you took to gaza has cost ou . , , you . We have had tremendous results overall. If you . We have had tremendous results overall if you you . We have had tremendous results overall. If you take you . We have had tremendous results overall. If you take oldham you . We have had tremendous results overall. If you take oldham which i overall. If you take oldham which you mentioned, ithink overall. If you take oldham which you mentioned, i think gaza was a factor but is not the only one. There are some very local issues in that local authority which means we lost seats for a few years running long before anything happened in gaza, so i think it is a bit too easy to ascribe every difficult result to one issue. Easy to ascribe every difficult result to one issue. There have been lots of places result to one issue. There have been lots of places where result to one issue. There have been lots of places where there result to one issue. There have been lots of places where there was i lots of places where there was evidence of that, Labour Councillors who already quit the party over the position in the middle east and lots of Anecdotal Evidence as well as things like in their birmingham mayoral contest in the West Midlands, of an independent Candidate Taking Thousands of votes from you. Candidate taking thousands of votes from ou. ,. ,. , from you. You mentioned the West Midlands, fantastic from you. You mentioned the West Midlands, fantastic result from you. You mentioned the West Midlands, fantastic result for i from you. You mentioned the West Midlands, fantastic result for us, i midlands, fantastic result for us, beyond our expectations, a real cliffhanger yesterday. Not only did we have excellent local Election Results across the country but winning that mayoral contest against what i admit was quite a popular incumbent who had run his whole campaign by putting as much distance as he could between himself and rishi sunak and the Conservative Party, absolutely tremendous result for us in the West Midlands. But there is an for us in the West Midlands. But there is an issue with peoples concern over the approach leadership is taken to the israel gaza conflict. I want to show you a quote from the chair of the labour muslim network. What do you say to that . I understand why people have strong feelings about this issue. Thousands of people have been killed, there is a great impulse to help people who is something that we share. This is about Keir Starmers position i is something that we share. This is about Keir Starmers position he i is something that we share. This is. About Keir Starmers position he has taken. Lots of people in your party wanted him to call directly for an immediate ceasefire from the start of this conflict and many people objected to some of his language at the beginning and are not happy with the beginning and are not happy with the leaderships approach. What do you say to them . I the leaderships approach. What do you say to them . You say to them . I would say that the better life you say to them . I would say that the better life that you say to them . I would say that the better life that people you say to them . I would say that the better life that people want i you say to them . I would say that| the better life that people want for the better life that people want for the Palestinian People is something the Palestinian People is something the labour leadership shares. If we are fortunate enough to be elected at the General Election, it is a very high Foreign Policy priority for the labour party. Two things have guided us all the way through since october seven. The first was defending israels right to defend itself after the atrocity and that remains part of our position, and the second is working to get a Better Future for the Palestinian People, and both of those things will guide our position going forward, so we understand why people have strong feelings about this. Why wouldnt they . It is such a difficult and desperate situation. Do you acknowledge it has had electoral consequences for you already and there are people in your party who wonder and worry there may be consequences for you in the General Election if you do not change your approach . Ido i do acknowledge that was the case of might not have in these elections, and we will work to get their support by, but these were tremendous local Election Results, a tremendous local Election Results, a tremendous by election, and a set of mayoral elections that went beyond our expectations. D0 mayoral elections that went beyond our expectations. Our expectations. Do you think you have sealed our expectations. Do you think you have sealed the our expectations. Do you think you have sealed the deal . Our expectations. Do you think you have sealed the deal . If our expectations. Do you think you have sealed the deal . If you i our expectations. Do you think you have sealed the deal . If you look. Our expectations. Do you think you. Have sealed the deal . If you look at the numbers overall, you are not cruising, as labour was in 1996, if you compare the National Share of the vote. It you compare the National Share of the vote. ~ the vote. It never felt like cruising the vote. It never felt like cruising at the vote. It never felt like cruising at the the vote. It never felt like cruising at the time, i the vote. It never felt like i cruising at the time, i would the vote. It never felt like cruising at the time, i would say but i would always say there is more work to do. I think what the results have given us this weekend is a sense of belief that sometimes the labour party has not had in recent years, because we have become used to losing, and i think even some of our voters have thought, i will vote labour but they never win, because we didnt in 2015, 2017, 2019, so there is a sense of belief, but that sense of belief should never be confused with any sense that the job is done. Not a single vote has been cast in the General Election that is to come. I think there is a mood of change in the country, and we have to meet it, and when people look at the labour party now, they can see a changed labour party compared to a few years ago, a labour party that is passing the essential tests of trust that the vote macro look for. Can you be trusted with public money and National Security . We were not passing those testy few years ago, but we are now, and we are determined after this weekend to keep going and keep working to earn trust as we approach the General Election. � ,. ~ trust as we approach the General Election. � ,. , ~. ,. ,. , election. Lets talk about another test that out election. Lets talk about another test that out is election. Lets talk about another test that out is set election. Lets talk about another test that out is set for test that out is set for politicians. We have been talking to the Rwandan Government about the scheme for migration. The spokesman said that if, like labour, you do not like the scheme and want to get rid of it, keir starmer would have to come up with another solution, what would it be . The to come up with another solution, what would it be . What would it be . The other thing the rwandan what would it be . The other thing the Rwandan Minister what would it be . The other thing the Rwandan Minister may what would it be . The other thing the Rwandan Minister may have i what would it be . The other thing i the Rwandan Minister may have said is that they cannot say how many people they would take, and part of our problem with the scheme is that it is a huge amount of money for a very small amount of people, and in response to this problem, which voters are rightly concerned about, you have to have a plan for the whole problem, not for 1 of it. This is ever only going to be a small part of the problem. We think the money being invested in this would be better spent on an International Operation to really crack down on the International Gangs that operate. That crack down on the International Gangs that operate. Crack down on the International Gangs that operate. That is what the government gangs that operate. That is what the government would gangs that operate. That is what the government would say gangs that operate. That is what the government would say they i gangs that operate. That is what i the government would say they have been doing, so what is the alternative . 40,000 people have come to this country without permission since the law was changed in 2023. The Rwandan Scheme will only ever apply to a tiny minority. But the Rwandan Scheme will only ever apply to a tiny minority. Apply to a tiny minority. But if you aet rid of apply to a tiny minority. But if you get rid of that apply to a tiny minority. But if you get rid of that scheme, apply to a tiny minority. But if you get rid of that scheme, what get rid of that scheme, what would you do . Get rid of that scheme, what would ou do . , ~. ,. , get rid of that scheme, what would ou do . M. ,. , get rid of that scheme, what would oudo . ,. , , you do . Take the money that is being sent on it you do . Take the money that is being spent on it and you do . Take the money that is being spent on it and spend you do . Take the money that is being spent on it and spend it you do . Take the money that is being spent on it and spend it on you do . Take the money that is being spent on it and spend it on a you do . Take the money that is being spent on it and spend it on a proper. Spent on it and spend it on a proper operation to crack down on the criminal gangs, a plan to address the whole of the problem, not 1 of it. �. ,. The whole of the problem, not 1 of it. �. ,. , the whole of the problem, not 1 of it. �. ,. The whole of the problem, not 1 of it. But on day one, if the scheme is u. It. But on day one, if the scheme is u and it. But on day one, if the scheme is up and running it. But on day one, if the scheme is up and running when it. But on day one, if the scheme is up and running when you it. But on day one, if the scheme is up and running when you win it. But on day one, if the scheme is up and running when you win the i up and running when you win the election, would you stop the flights . 1 election, would you stop the fliuhts . ~ , flights . I think they will get fli. Hts flights . I think they will get flights off. Flights . I think they will get flights off, but flights . I think they will get flights off, but we flights . I think they will get flights off, but we have flights . I think they will get i flights off, but we have always flights . I think they will get flights off, but we have always said the scheme would not work will be value for money. It is costing upwards of £500 million to send. But if it is up and running, and you might be sceptical about whether it can work, would a Labour Government to stop it on day one . We can work, would a Labour Government to stop it on day one . To stop it on day one . We have said we would divert to stop it on day one . We have said we would divert money to stop it on day one . We have said we would divert money to to stop it on day one . We have said we would divert money to the we would divert money to the International Operation, the policing operation. International operation, the policing operation. International operation, the policing operation. International operation, the olicin oeration. ~. , policing operation. Would you stop it immediately policing operation. Would you stop it immediately if policing operation. Would you stop it immediately if it policing operation. Would you stop it immediately if it is policing operation. Would you stop it immediately if it is working . Policing operation. Would you stop it immediately if it is working . We i it immediately if it is working . We dont it immediately if it is working . , dont want to continue with the scheme, we want to resources being spent on it to crack down on International Criminal gangs. We have been pretty clear about that. That is not the same as saying you would stop it on day one, or am i missing the point . Day would stop it on day one, or am i missing the point . Missing the point . Day one, you know, missing the point . Day one, you know. You missing the point . Day one, you know. You do missing the point . Day one, you know, you do lots missing the point . Day one, you know, you do lots of missing the point . Day one, you know, you do lots of things, missing the point . Day one, you know, you do lots of things, but| know, you do lots of things, but this is not a scheme we want to continue with. We want to take those resources and use it to crack down on the International Smuggling gangs. On the International Smuggling hans. , on the International Smuggling hans. I, on the International Smuggling ans. , on the International Smuggling hans. Y. , , on the International Smuggling ttaiis. Y. , ,. , gangs. Lastly on this, if people had one a gangs. Lastly on this, if people had gone a large gangs. Lastly on this, if people had gone a large number, gangs. Lastly on this, if people had gone a large number, any gangs. Lastly on this, if people had gone a large number, any number| gangs. Lastly on this, if people had l gone a large number, any number to rwanda if the government succeeds in getting people to be processed as Asylum Seekers in that is an african country, if you win, would you bring them back . I country, if you win, would you bring them back . Them back . I dont think wed do that. Them back . I dont think wed do that that them back . I dont think wed do that that is them back . I dont think wed do that. That is a them back . I dont think wed do that. That is a valid them back . I dont think wed do that. That is a valid question, them back . I dont think wed do | that. That is a valid question, you have objected that. That is a valid question, you have objected to that. That is a valid question, you have objected to the that. That is a valid question, you have objected to the scheme that. That is a valid question, you have objected to the scheme all l have objected to the scheme all along, if you think it is so wrong and terrible to send people there, would you bring them back . There are circumstances would you bring them back . There are circumstances where would you bring them back . There are circumstances where they would you bring them back . There are circumstances where they can would you bring them back . There are circumstances where they can be would you bring them back . There are circumstances where they can be sent| circumstances where they can be sent back, even under the current scheme, but no, i dont think we would do that. , ~ ,. ,. , but no, i dont think we would do that. , ~ in. ,. , that. Thank you for coming in after a weekend that. Thank you for coming in after a weekend where that. Thank you for coming in after a weekend where everybody that. Thank you for coming in after a weekend where everybody in a weekend where everybody in politics has been short on sleep. Well, what did you think of all of that . Email us at kuenssberg bbc. Co. Uk or on social use bbclaurak, and well try and share some of the converation later in the show. The headlines are on the bbc live page as it unfolds, the address is there for you now. Lets find out what our panel make of what weve heard so far. Paul scully, firstly to you, we were talking to Secretary Of State mark harper after Suella Bravermans very strident criticism, did you hear anything from mark harper that suggested he gets it, that he is understood the message from voters . What i took from both of those interviews is that Suella Braverman is known for an ideological approach to politics, mark is a very effective Secretary Of State, very process driven, and the two are not really talking to each other. There is no narrative or cohesion about what we are doing as a party, so he is right that we have to stick to the plan and talk about the five pledges that the Prime Minister came up pledges that the Prime Minister came up with last year, the economy, health care, nhs, stopping the boats. But where is the narrative . What do people think why we are here to do what we are doing . There is no vision for the future, and that is what i want us to be concentrating on for the next few months to the General Election, where is the vision for the next five years . We cannot just vision for the next five years . We cannotjust win vision for the next five years . We cannot just win the vision for the next five years . We cannotjust win the election vision for the next five years . We cannot just win the election for the sake of winning an election, we need a purpose. D0 sake of winning an election, we need a urose. , , sake of winning an election, we need a urose. ,. ,. , a purpose. Do you buy the idea that ou are a purpose. Do you buy the idea that you are still a purpose. Do you buy the idea that you are still in a purpose. Do you buy the idea that you are still in the a purpose. Do you buy the idea that you are still in the game . A purpose. Do you buy the idea that you are still in the game . I a purpose. Do you buy the idea that you are still in the game . I dont i you are still in the game . I dont necessarily you are still in the game . I dont necessarily agree you are still in the game . I dont necessarily agree with you are still in the game . I dont necessarily agree with that you are still in the game . I dont necessarily agree with that in you are still in the game . I dont i necessarily agree with that in terms of winning the election, but we can fight for every seat, because there is going to be a Conservative Party the day after the election, and we have to rebuild that narrative that i was talking about, that Broad Coalition that were used to have we need good people to do it, and i hope the individual candidates will be able to put their stall across at the General Election so we have a good, thriving party that can see its future. ,. ,. , its future. Pippa crerar, what did ou its future. Pippa crerar, what did you think . Its future. Pippa crerar, what did you think . I its future. Pippa crerar, what did you think . I think its future. Pippa crerar, what did you think . I think mark its future. Pippa crerar, what did you think . I think mark harper i its future. Pippa crerar, what did l you think . I think mark harper did its future. Pippa crerar, what did i you think . I think mark harper did a valiant ob you think . I think mark harper did a valiant job after you think . I think mark harper did a valiant job after a you think . I think mark harper did a valiant job after a difficult you think . I think mark harper did a valiant job after a difficult set i you think . I think mark harper did a valiant job after a difficult set of i valiant job after a difficult set of results. Valiant job after a difficult set of results, and this whole thing about sticking results, and this whole thing about sticking to results, and this whole thing about sticking to the plan, the economy is at the sticking to the plan, the economy is at the heart sticking to the plan, the economy is at the heart of all of it, and the government clearly hopes that people will feel government clearly hopes that people will feel a government clearly hopes that people will feel a little bit better off, Inflation Dropping again, Interest Rates Inflation Dropping again, Interest Rates coming down, possibly an autumn rates coming down, possibly an Autumn Statement from jeremy hunt with another tax and National Insurance with another tax and National Insurance cut, not by the time we et insurance cut, not by the time we get to insurance cut, not by the time we get to a insurance cut, not by the time we get to a General Election, people will he get to a General Election, people will be feeling better off. The problem is, some of that Economic Hardship problem is, some of that Economic Hardship is problem is, some of that Economic Hardship is pectin, inflation has been hardship is pectin, inflation has been high, people are already struggling their bills, and the picture struggling their bills, and the picture is grim with Public Services picture is grim with Public Services. People are not in a place where services. People are not in a place where they services. People are not in a place where they are going to be listening to messages to stick with the plan and things to messages to stick with the plan and things are going to get better, and things are going to get better, and i and things are going to get better, and i think and things are going to get better, and i think the tories have reached the end and i think the tories have reached the end of and i think the tories have reached the end of the road, really, when it comes the end of the road, really, when it comes to the end of the road, really, when it comes to the public feeling that they can comes to the public feeling that they can believe that they are going to, you they can believe that they are going to, you know, improve their lives. There to, you know, improve their lives. There is to, you know, improve their lives. There is very to, you know, improve their lives. There is very little, i think, to, you know, improve their lives. There is very little, ithink, not least there is very little, ithink, not least because of the reputational damage least because of the reputational damage inflicted by borisjohnson and liz damage inflicted by borisjohnson and liz truss, very little now the conservatives can do to turn that around conservatives can do to turn that around. Ls conservatives can do to turn that around. ,. Conservatives can do to turn that around. ,. ,. ,. ,. , conservatives can do to turn that around. ,. ,. ,. ,. , around. Is that fair, do you think . We have to around. Is that fair, do you think . We have to learn around. Is that fair, do you think . We have to learn the around. Is that fair, do you think . We have to learn the lessons i around. Is that fair, do you think . | we have to learn the lessons from 1997, when ijoined the party, in the immediate aftermath, i was that we at. � ,. , the immediate aftermath, i was that we at. � the immediate aftermath, i was that weat. �. , we at. Are you saying that people in olitics we at. Are you saying that people in politics are we at. Are you saying that people in politics are weirdos . We at. Are you saying that people in politics are weirdos . I we at. Are you saying that people in politics are weirdos . I saw i we at. Are you saying that people in politics are weirdos . I saw that l in politics are weirdos . I saw that eo le in politics are weirdos . I saw that people had in politics are weirdos . I saw that people had stopped in politics are weirdos . I saw that people had stopped listening, i in politics are weirdos . I saw that| people had stopped listening, and in politics are weirdos . I saw that i people had stopped listening, and it felt that was happening now, so that is why im talking about humility. How do we start to shorten the process and make sure we can, you know, make people feel that benefits that mark was talking about . That is actually there in terms of the economy turning round, but they are not feeling it yet. Not feeling it yet. Jacqui smith, ou are not feeling it yet. Jacqui smith, you are rolling not feeling it yet. Jacqui smith, you are rolling your not feeling it yet. Jacqui smith, you are rolling your eyes. I not feeling it yet. Jacqui smith, i you are rolling your eyes. Because what we have you are rolling your eyes. Because what we have seen you are rolling your eyes. Because what we have seen this you are rolling your eyes. Because what we have seen this morning i you are rolling your eyes. Because| what we have seen this morning is, essentially, what we have seen this morning is, essentially, suella what we have seen this morning is, essentially, Suella Braverman, i what we have seen this morning is, i essentially, Suella Braverman, mark rand paul essentially, Suella Braverman, mark rand paul wrestling essentially, Suella Braverman, mark rand paul wrestling for essentially, Suella Braverman, mark rand paul wrestling for the essentially, Suella Braverman, mark rand paul wrestling for the of essentially, Suella Braverman, mark rand paul wrestling for the of the i rand paul wrestling for the of the conservative rand paul wrestling for the of the Conservative Party, rand paul wrestling for the of the Conservative Party, whilst rand paul wrestling for the of the Conservative Party, whilst britishl Conservative Party, whilst british people Conservative Party, whilst british people are Conservative Party, whilst british people are paying Conservative Party, whilst british people are paying record Conservative Party, whilst british people are paying Record Levels i Conservative Party, whilst britishi people are paying Record Levels of taxation. People are paying Record Levels of taxation, cannot people are paying Record Levels of taxation, cannot get people are paying Record Levels of taxation, cannot get a people are paying Record Levels of taxation, cannot get a hospital. Taxation, Cannot Get A Hospital Appointment taxation, Cannot Get A Hospital Appointment or taxation, Cannot Get A Hospital Appointment or a taxation, Cannot Get A Hospital Appointment or a gp taxation, Cannot Get A Hospital Appointment or a gp appointment, see the kids appointment or a gp appointment, see the kids School Appointment or a gp appointment, see the kids school is appointment or a gp appointment, see the kids school is crumbling, appointment or a gp appointment, see the kids school is crumbling, and i the kids school is crumbling, and are worried the kids school is crumbling, and are worried about the kids school is crumbling, and are worried about whether the kids school is crumbling, and are worried about whether or the kids school is crumbling, and are worried about whether or not| the kids school is crumbling, and i are worried about whether or not the country are worried about whether or not the country is are worried about whether or not the country is going are worried about whether or not the country is going on are worried about whether or not the country is going on the are worried about whether or not the country is going on the right country is going on the right direction country is going on the right direction. The country is going on the right direction. The only country is going on the right direction. The only answer. Country is going on the right| direction. The only answer is country is going on the right i direction. The only answer is a completely direction. The only answer is a completely fresh direction. The only answer is a completely fresh start, direction. The only answer is a completely fresh start, a i direction. The only answer is a i completely fresh start, a General Election completely fresh start, a General Election 0t completely fresh start, a General Election. Of course, completely fresh start, a General Election. Of course, there completely fresh start, a General Election. Of course, there is completely fresh start, a General Election. Of course, there is a i election. Of course, there is a continued election. Of course, there is a continued challenge election. Of course, there is a continued challenge for election. Of course, there is al continued challenge for labour election. Of course, there is a i continued challenge for labour to make continued challenge for labour to make sure continued challenge for labour to make sure they continued challenge for labour to make sure they achieve continued challenge for labour to make sure they achieve the i continued challenge for labour to i make sure they achieve the results that will make sure they achieve the results that will allow make sure they achieve the results that will allow the make sure they achieve the results that will allow the labour that will allow the Labour Government that will allow the Labour Government to that will allow the Labour Government to make i that will allow the labour| government to make that that will allow the Labour Government to make that change, that will allow the Labour Government to make that change, but it is clear government to make that change, but it is clear that government to make that change, but it is clear that the government to make that change, but it is clear that the tory government to make that change, but it is clear that the tory Party Government to make that change, but it is clear that the Tory Party Have i it is clear that the Tory Party Have run out it is clear that the Tory Party Have run out of it is clear that the Tory Party Have run out of steam, it is clear that the Tory Party Have run out of steam, and it is clear that the Tory Party Have run out of steam, and i it is clear that the Tory Party Have run out of steam, and i was it is clear that the Tory Party Have i run out of steam, and i was talking to somebody run out of steam, and i was talking to somebody yesterday run out of steam, and i was talking to somebody yesterday who run out of steam, and i was talking to somebody yesterday who said i run out of steam, and i was talkingj to somebody yesterday who said to me, to somebody yesterday who said to me. Actually, to somebody yesterday who said to me. Actually, it to somebody yesterday who said to me, actually, if they to somebody yesterday who said to me, actually, if they really to somebody yesterday who said to me, actually, if they really care i me, actually, if they really care for our me, actually, if they really care for our country, me, actually, if they really care for our country, they me, actually, if they really care for our country, they need i me, actually, if they really care for our country, they need to l for our country, they need to recognise for our country, they need to recognise that for our country, they need to recognise that themselves, i for our country, they need to. Recognise that themselves, call for our country, they need to recognise that themselves, call a recognise that themselves, calla election recognise that themselves, call a election and recognise that themselves, call a election and let recognise that themselves, call a election and let the recognise that themselves, call a election and let the change recognise that themselves, call a election and let the change starti election and let the change start now election and let the change start now. � a, election and let the change start now. �. ,. ~ election and let the change start now. �. ,. ~. , election and let the change start now. �. ,. , election and let the change start now. , now. But a big chunk of this is baked in because now. But a big chunk of this is baked in because of now. But a big chunk of this is baked in because of covid now. But a big chunk of this is baked in because of covid and i now. But a big chunk of this is baked in because of covid and The Cost Of Living crisis exacerbated by ukraine, you see that with incumbents across the world. Undoubtedly, we have shot ourselves in the foot a few times, i am not using that as an overall excuse. But there are no easy answers, i do not think an incoming Labour Government. Think an incoming Labour Government. Think an incoming Labour Government. Think an incoming labour covernment. ,. ,. Government. There are not, which is wh we government. There are not, which is why we need government. There are not, which is why we need a government. There are not, which is why we need a government government. There are not, which is why we need a government that l government. There are not, which| is why we need a government that is focused is why we need a government that is focused on is why we need a government that is focused on the is why we need a government that is focused on the future is why we need a government that is focused on the future of is why we need a government that is focused on the future of the focused on the future of the country. Focused on the future of the country, rather focused on the future of the country, rather than focused on the future of the country, rather than trying, | focused on the future of the country, rather than trying, you know. Country, rather than trying, you know. Fighting country, rather than trying, you know, fighting the country, rather than trying, you know, fighting the internal country, rather than trying, you i know, fighting the internal battles in public, know, fighting the internal battles in public, as know, fighting the internal battles in public, as we know, fighting the internal battles in public, as we have know, fighting the internal battles in public, as we have seen know, fighting the internal battles in public, as we have seen this in public, as we have seen this morning in public, as we have seen this morninu. ,. In public, as we have seen this morning in public, as we have seen this morninu. ,. , �. ,. ,. , , morning. Suella braverman absolutely sittin morning. Suella braverman absolutely spitting feathers morning. Suella braverman absolutely spitting feathers about morning. Suella braverman absolutely spitting feathers about how morning. Suella braverman absolutely spitting feathers about how bad spitting feathers about how bad things have got in her view, really pushing for a change in direction, but it does seem that tory rebels who have been discussing and planning what to do after this weekend, it seems they have given up. Is that what you have been hearing . Up. Is that what you have been hearin . ~ , ~. , up. Is that what you have been hearinu . ~ , ~ , hearing . Absolutely, Andrea Jenkyns is one of the hearing . Absolutely, Andrea Jenkyns is one of the very hearing . Absolutely, Andrea Jenkyns is one of the very few hearing . Absolutely, Andrea Jenkyns is one of the very few mps hearing . Absolutely, Andrea Jenkyns is one of the very few mps putting i is one of the very few mps putting in a letter, is one of the very few mps putting in a letter, but she went on the today in a letter, but she went on the today programme to say, actually, she didnt today programme to say, actually, she didnt say there was any point in this she didnt say there was any point in this and she didnt say there was any point in this and that people had to come in this and that people had to come in behind in this and that people had to come in behind the Prime Minister, nadine dorries. In behind the Prime Minister, nadine dorries, another dominant critic, tweeting dorries, another dominant critic, tweeting that Everyone Needs to get behind tweeting that Everyone Needs to get behind the Prime Minister and come together behind the Prime Minister and come together. The heat has definitely gone together. The heat has definitely gone out together. The heat has definitely gone out of any rebellion, if there ever wes gone out of any rebellion, if there ever was a gone out of any rebellion, if there ever was a big enough rebellion to et ever was a big enough rebellion to get rid ever was a big enough rebellion to get rid of ever was a big enough rebellion to get rid of him in the first place, which get rid of him in the first place, which i get rid of him in the first place, which i doubt it, which i doubt. But ithink which i doubt it, which i doubt. But i think what which i doubt it, which i doubt. But i think what those interviews in particular i think what those interviews in particular Suella Bravermans shout is the particular Suella Bravermans shout is the irony particular Suella Bravermans shout is the irony of it, her coming on and is the irony of it, her coming on and saying is the irony of it, her coming on and saying lets unite, she has been one of and saying lets unite, she has been one of the and saying lets unite, she has been one of the key individuals behind. That was one of the key individuals behind. That was her one of the key individuals behind. That was her Leadership Campaign she has that was her Leadership Campaign she has treen that was her Leadership Campaign she has been stirring that was her Leadership Campaign she has been stirring the that was her Leadership Campaign she has been stirring the pot that was her Leadership Campaign she has been stirring the pot and i she has been stirring the pot and causing she has been stirring the pot and causing trouble for rishi sunak, and that is causing trouble for rishi sunak, and that is one causing trouble for rishi sunak, and that is one of the biggest problem is, people that is one of the biggest problem is, people look at them and say they are nrost is, people look at them and say they are most concerned about fighting themselves. Are most concerned about fighting themselves themselves. Unification is absolutely themselves. Unification is absolutely at themselves. Unification is absolutely at the themselves. Unification is absolutely at the heart i themselves. Unification is absolutely at the heart of| themselves. Unification is. Absolutely at the heart of it, because she was right, suella, when she talked about voters being on strike, it is about improving our turnout, which we have seen of the last few days. I turnout, which we have seen of the last few days last few days. I wanted to ask you briefl , last few days. I wanted to ask you briefly. You last few days. I wanted to ask you briefly, you wanted last few days. I wanted to ask you briefly, you wanted to last few days. I wanted to ask you briefly, you wanted to be last few days. I wanted to ask you | briefly, you wanted to be candidate for london mayor, if you had been chosen, do you think you could have won it . I chosen, do you think you could have won it . ~ chosen, do you think you could have won it . ,. ,. , won it . I thinki could have run it closer, because won it . I thinki could have run it closer, because you won it . I thinki could have run it closer, because you need won it . I thinki could have run it closer, because you need a won it . I thinki could have run it i closer, because you need a positive vision in london, it is one of the most aspirational places in the world, you needed a good aspirational view about housing, crime, transport, quality of life in london. It is a global city, we watched the selection and the campaign, as tim points out early on, and that is to my regret, and i love linden, it is my home city. What a Strange Campaign for the tories what a Strange Campaign for the tories to what a Strange Campaign for the tories to run. What a Strange Campaign for the tories to run, we what a Strange Campaign for the tories to run, we hate what a Strange Campaign for the tories to run, we hate london, i what a Strange Campaign for the. Tories to run, we hate london, led us run tories to run, we hate london, led us run it tories to run, we hate london, led us run it you tories to run, we hate london, led us run it. You would tories to run, we hate london, led us run it. You would have tories to run, we hate london, led us run it. You would have done i tories to run, we hate london, led us run it. You would have done a l us run it. You would have done a tfetter us run it. You would have done a betterioh. Us run it. You would have done a betterioh. You us run it. You would have done a betterjob, you would us run it. You would have done a betterjob, you would have us run it. You would have done a betterjob, you would have still. Betterjob, you would have still lost~ betterjob, you would have still lost~ l better ob, you would have still lost. ~ better ob, you would have still lost. , ~. , better ob, you would have still lost. ,. ,. ,. , lost. I will take that as a win lets talk lost. I will take that as a win lets talk about lost. I will take that as a win lets talk about labour, i lost. I will take that as a win lets talk about labour, a i lost. I will take that as a win | lets talk about labour, a real lost. I will take that as a win i lets talk about labour, a real cost for them is how the leadership has looked at the israel gaza leadership, it has cost votes, as serious a problem do you think it might be . Serious a problem do you think it miaht be . ~. ,. , serious a problem do you think it miaht be . ~. , y. ,. , serious a problem do you think it miaht be . ~. ,. ,. , serious a problem do you think it miaht be . ~. , y. ,. ,. ,. , might be . What you have heard from labour politicians might be . What you have heard from labour politicians across might be . What you have heard from labour politicians across the labour politicians across the weekend labour politicians across the weekend is labour politicians across the weekend is a labour politicians across the weekend is a real labour politicians across the i weekend is a real commitment to labour politicians across the weekend is a real commitment to say that we weekend is a real commitment to say that we know weekend is a real commitment to say that we know that weekend is a real commitment to say that we know that people weekend is a real commitment to say that we know that people feel that we know that people feel enormously that we know that people feel enormously strongly that we know that people feel enormously strongly about i that we know that people feel. Enormously strongly about gaza, that we know that people feel enormously strongly about gaza, we know it enormously strongly about gaza, we know it is enormously strongly about gaza, we know it is influencing enormously strongly about gaza, we know it is influencing their enormously strongly about gaza, we know it is influencing their vote, i know it is influencing their vote, and we know it is influencing their vote, and we are know it is influencing their vote, and we are determined know it is influencing their vote, and we are determined to know it is influencing their vote, and we are determined to thinkl know it is influencing their vote, i and we are determined to think about our approach and we are determined to think about ourapproach. But and we are determined to think about our approach. But what and we are determined to think about our approach. But what it and we are determined to think about our approach. But what it also and we are determined to think about our approach. But what it also showsi our approach. But what it also shows you is our approach. But what it also shows you is that our approach. But what it also shows you is that i our approach. But what it also shows you is that i think our approach. But what it also shows you is that i think it our approach. But what it also shows you is that i think it is you is that i think it is interesting you is that i think it is interesting when i you is that i think it is i interesting when people you is that i think it is interesting when people say you is that i think it is interesting when people say you should interesting when people say you should decide interesting when people say you should decide your interesting when people say you should decide your foreign interesting when people say you | should decide your Foreign Policy interesting when people say you i should decide your Foreign Policy on the basis should decide your Foreign Policy on the basis of should decide your Foreign Policy on the basis of what should decide your Foreign Policy on the basis of what will should decide your Foreign Policy on the basis of what will make should decide your Foreign Policy on the basis of what will make people i the basis of what will make people in your the basis of what will make people in your party the basis of what will make people in your party happy. The basis of what will make people in your party happy. Wrong. The basis of what will make people in your party happy. Wrong. You i in your party happy. Wrong. You should in your party happy. Wrong. You should make in your party happy. Wrong. You should make those in your party happy. Wrong. You should make those decisions i in your party happy. Wrong. You i should make those decisions based in your party happy. Wrong. You should make those decisions based on the fact should make those decisions based on the fact you should make those decisions based on the fact you will should make those decisions based on the fact you will be should make those decisions based on the fact you will be prime should make those decisions based on the fact you will be Prime Minister the fact you will be Prime Minister in the the fact you will be Prime Minister in the future, the fact you will be Prime Minister in the future, and the fact you will be Prime Minister in the future, and what the fact you will be Prime Minister in the future, and what you the fact you will be Prime Minister in the future, and what you want l the fact you will be Prime Minister| in the future, and what you want is a policy in the future, and what you want is a policy that in the future, and what you want is a policy that both in the future, and what you want is a policy that both protects in the future, and what you want is a policy that both protects israelsl a policy that both protects israels iiliit a policy that both protects israels right to a policy that both protects israels right to exist a policy that both protects israels right to exist and a policy that both protects israels right to exist and recognises a policy that both protects israels right to exist and recognises the l right to exist and recognises the enormous right to exist and recognises the enormous damage right to exist and recognises the enormous damage done right to exist and recognises the enormous damage done on right to exist and recognises the i enormous damage done on october right to exist and recognises the enormous damage done on October The 7th and enormous damage done on October The 7th and also enormous damage done on October The 7th and also buys enormous damage done on October The 7th and also buys a enormous damage done on October The 7th and also buys a long term enormous damage done on October The 7th and also buys a long term future i 7th and also buys a long term future for the 7th and also buys a long term future for the people 7th and also buys a long term future for the people of 7th and also buys a long term future for the people of gaza 7th and also buys a long term future for the people of gaza who 7th and also buys a long term future for the people of gaza who are for the people of gaza who are suffering for the people of gaza who are suffering so for the people of gaza who are suffering so horrifically for the people of gaza who are suffering so horrifically at i for the people of gaza who are suffering so horrifically at the i suffering so horrifically at the moment suffering so horrifically at the moment do suffering so horrifically at the moment. ,. , suffering so horrifically at the moment. , suffering so horrifically at the moment. Y. , , suffering so horrifically at the moment. Y. , moment. Do you believe it could cost labour seats moment. Do you believe it could cost labour seats in moment. Do you believe it could cost labour seats in the moment. Do you believe it could cost labour seats in the general labour seats in the General Election . It seems they will not change their approach, they are talking about listening. Thea;r change their approach, they are talking about listening. They are not changing talking about listening. They are not changing their talking about listening. They are not changing their approach, i talking about listening. They are i not changing their approach, because it is the not changing their approach, because it is the right not changing their approach, because it is the right one. Not changing their approach, because it is the right one. Will not changing their approach, because it is the right one. Will it not changing their approach, because it is the right one. Will it cost it is the right one. Will it cost seats . It is the right one. Will it cost seats . It it is the right one. Will it cost seats . It may, it is the right one. Will it cost seats . It may, in it is the right one. Will it cost seats . It may, in a it is the right one. Will it cost seats . It may, in a very it is the right one. Will it cost seats . It may, in a very few, | seats . It may, in a very few, i dont seats . It may, in a very few, i dont know. Seats . It may, in a very few, i dont know, but seats . It may, in a very few, i dont know, but i seats . It may, in a very few, i dont know, but i think seats . It may, in a very few, i dont know, but i think what. Seats . It may, in a very few, i. Dont know, but i think what you need dont know, but i think what you need to dont know, but i think what you need to do dont know, but i think what you need to do going dont know, but i think what you need to do going into dont know, but i think what you need to do going into a dont know, but i think what you need to do going into a generall need to do going into a General Election need to do going into a General Election as need to do going into a General Election as do need to do going into a General Election as do the need to do going into a General Election as do the right need to do going into a General Election as do the right thing i need to do going into a general| election as do the right thing by the country. Election as do the right thing by the country, and election as do the right thing by the country, and then election as do the right thing by the country, and then you election as do the right thing by the country, and then you need| election as do the right thing by. The country, and then you need to make the country, and then you need to make sure the country, and then you need to make sure come the country, and then you need to make sure come the the country, and then you need to make sure come the party, the country, and then you need to make sure come the party, you i the country, and then you need to| make sure come the party, you are explaining make sure come the party, you are explaining why make sure come the party, you are explaining why you make sure come the party, you are explaining why you are make sure come the party, you are explaining why you are doing make sure come the party, you are. Explaining why you are doing things, you are explaining why you are doing things, you are engaging. Explaining why you are doing things, you are engaging, and explaining why you are doing things, you are engaging, and not explaining why you are doing things, you are engaging, and not taking i you are engaging, and not taking people you are engaging, and not taking people for you are engaging, and not taking people for granted, you are engaging, and not taking people for granted, which you are engaging, and not taking people for granted, which i you are engaging, and not taking people for granted, which i think| people for granted, which i think some people for granted, which i think some groups people for granted, which i think some groups within people for granted, which i think some groups within the people for granted, which i think some groups within the party, i some groups within the party, including some groups within the party, including those some groups within the party, including those who some groups within the party, including those who may some groups within the party, including those who may have i some groups within the party, including those who may have voted for green including those who may have voted for green for including those who may have voted for green for reasons including those who may have voted for green for reasons to including those who may have voted for green for reasons to do including those who may have voted for green for reasons to do with i for green for reasons to do with climate for green for reasons to do with climate change, for green for reasons to do with climate change, that for green for reasons to do with climate change, that those i for green for reasons to do with i climate change, that those people are not climate change, that those people are not being climate change, that those people are not being taken climate change, that those people are not being taken for climate change, that those people are not being taken for granted i climate change, that those peoplel are not being taken for granted and their voices are not being taken for granted and their voices are are not being taken for granted and their voices are being are not being taken for granted and their voices are being heard. Labour in some of their strongholds, they could stand losing some of their votes. They could stand losing some of theirvotes. But they could stand losing some of their votes. But the General Election is different, ultimately in large parts of the country people will think of it as a two horse race. � ,. ,. , race. But is not ust about the seats in race. But is notjust about the seats in england, race. But is notjust about the seats in england, course. I race. But is notjust about the i seats in england, course. Scotland, the seats it is fighting a slightly more progressive than the rest of the uk so they will have to watch out there. They want to be able to take lots of seats in scotland. And there have been missteps in some of there have been missteps in some of the handling. The way they handle the handling. The way they handle the gaza issue, the 28 billion issue, it hasnt been plain sailing, but they have to watch out in the run up to the election that they dont have any serious missteps that the tories can capitalise on because keir starmer is trying to present himself as mr reassurance. Jackie, ou were himself as mr reassurance. Jackie, you were part himself as mr reassurance. Jackie, you were part of himself as mr reassurance. Jackie, you were part of labours himself as mr reassurance. Jackie, you were part of labours march i himself as mr reassurance. Jackie, i you were part of labours march back to power in the 905, does this feel like 1997 . It to power in the 90s, does this feel like 1997 . , 4 like 1997 . It did not feel like coastin like 1997 . It did not feel like coasting to like 1997 . It did not feel like coasting to power like 1997 . It did not feel like coasting to power at like 1997 . It did not feel like coasting to power at the i like 1997 . It did not feel like | coasting to power at the time. Like 1997 . It did not feel like coasting to power at the time. There was an coasting to power at the time. There was an enormous coasting to power at the time. There was an enormous amount coasting to power at the time. There was an enormous amount of coasting to power at the time. There i was an enormous amount of discipline and clear was an enormous amount of discipline and clear messaging was an enormous amount of discipline and clear messaging. The was an enormous amount of discipline and clear messaging. The sooner was an enormous amount of discipline and clear messaging. The sooner we l and clear messaging. The sooner we et and clear messaging. The sooner we get a and clear messaging. The sooner we get a general and clear messaging. The sooner we get a General Election, and clear messaging. The sooner we get a General Election, the and clear messaging. The sooner we get a General Election, the better. Get a General Election, the better. At the get a General Election, the better. At the end get a General Election, the better. At the end of get a General Election, the better. At the end of the get a General Election, the better. At the end of the Programme Get a General Election, the better. At the end of the programme we i get a General Election, the better. I at the end of the programme we will be talking about the smaller parties which had important and interesting results as well. You can bet the conservatives will keep hammering the message about immigration and their plan to get planes of Asylum Seekers off to rwanda. But even if they do make it down the runway, will it solve the problem . 40,000 migrants have arrived in the uk without permission in th since the law was changed, but can the east african country guarantee theyll provide homes for them all . Ive been speaking to Yolande Makolo from the Rwandan Government. I began by asking her how many rwanda is ready for. Along the lifetime of this partnership, which is initially five years, we expect to relocate thousands, but this will be staggered so that we can manage it properly, and will be discussed with our partners, especially in the ramp up phase. How many people do you think you could accommodate initially . This is something that well discuss as we go along this partnership with with our colleagues in the uk. Theres been a misconception about this 200 number and weve tried to explain it. Journalists have been visiting the initial accommodations that we have secured since the beginning of the partnership this is hope hostel. That particular facility is able to take up to 200 people. However, weve already started initial discussions with other facilities around kigali and further afield, and these will be firmed up and signed once we know how many migrants are coming and when theyre coming. So its never been the case that we can only take 200 initially. That has been a misconception. Cant you give a guarantee that youd be able to process the tens of thousands of people that the government would like to send to rwanda . We will be able to welcome the migrants that the uk sends over the lifetime of this partnership. What i cannot tell you is how many thousands we are taking in the first year or in the second year. This will depend on very many factors that are being worked out right now. Theres huge debate here about whether rwanda is a safe country to send people to. On friday, at least nine people were killed after a camp in the democratic republic of congo was bombed. Now, the American State Department has blamed your rwandan army and a rebel group known as m23. Was your country involved . Not at all. I mean, look at what the people themselves in the camps have been saying. They know that the congolese army, the drc army, has had heavy artillery near the idp camps. The ngos that work there have been complaining, requesting, including the un, has been asking the drc government to move this heavy artillery away from these idp camps. They didnt, and this is this is what happened. Yet the state department has pointed the finger at the rwandan army and that group, m23, youve been accused many times of backing. Why is the Us State Department wrong . Well, theyve been very hasty to blame us without looking, without investigating this incident, and without talking to the people who are affected. Its something that we outright reject and its unfair. Many human Rights Groups express real concerns about rights and freedoms in rwanda, about the safety of gay or transgender people there, for example, and the British Foreign Office Advises lgbt travelers they can experience abuse and discrimination. What assurances can you give that they would be protected . Thatjust does not speak to the reality of rwanda at all. The Foreign Office is wrong . I dont know what document youre referring to, but everybody in rwanda, we believe in non discrimination. Discrimination is what almost destroyed this country in 1994. We have built back this country on the basis of unity and non discrimination on any basis. Rwanda does not discriminate against people of different sexual or gender orientation. Not at all. Everyone can feel protected by the law here and theres no. Its not illegal to be gay in rwanda we have no legislation against homosexuality in this country. So it is a wrong reading of the situation in rwanda. That is not the reality. So the uk Foreign Office has got that wrong . They need to review that. The leader of the uk labour party, keir starmer, says hed get rid of the rwanda scheme if he becomes Prime Minister. What would you say to him . Im not going to speak to uk domestic politics. What i can tell you is that we are serious about offering people a home and were doing it for the right reasons. People can oppose this partnership and this programme if they want to, but rwanda should not be criticized unjustly. And they should also come up with with another solution, thats innovative and thats not just, you know, deterrence and enforcement. People are suffering here so we need Good Solutions and we need to rethink the migration crisis. Do you think sometimes people have an unfair idea about what rwanda is like . Yes, i think rwanda has been attacked unjustly. We have worked very hard in this country to get to where we are, after basically an apocalypse in 1994, where we lost over a million rwandans. We have built back and we want to do more. We want to do more with our partners in the region and beyond, including the uk, to ensure that rwandans are able to fulfil their potential and to develop this continent and to contribute to global problems like migration, for instance. So yes, we are attacked unjustly. And living in rwanda is not a punishment its a beautiful country, including the weather. Everything about this country is much better than its ever been in its history, and its a great country to be in and to work for. And we hope that the people who come to live here with us will feel the same way. Lets see what happens with that whole scheme over time. Lets return to our main story. We spoke about the tories, labour, the lib dems, the tories, labour, the lib dems, the greens, reform with lots of candidates. The lib dems ended up with more councillors than the tories. It with more councillors than the tories. , , tories. It is interesting because we are making tories. It is interesting because we are making comparisons tories. It is interesting because we are making comparisons to tories. It is interesting because we are making comparisons to 1997, l are making comparisons to 1997, Paddy Ashdown was a big beast, he made it clear there was a relationship with labour going into the election, but we havent heard much from ed davey, they are taking a quieter approach, but they have seemed to be working, taking control in various councils. I think what we will inevitably see is voters can work it out themselves and we are likely to see it writ large across the so blue wall, the areas where the so blue wall, the areas where the lib dems and tories are up against each other, as labour voters, green voters, other party voters, green voters, other party Voters Decide to back the lib dems. I think we will probably see a few what we call Michael Portillo moments, there are some big seats, michael gove, jeremy hunt have both been mentioned. Help . Michael gove, jeremy hunt have both been mentioned. Michael gove, jeremy hunt have both been mentioned. How worried are your colleaaues been mentioned. How worried are your colleagues been been mentioned. How worried are your colleagues been taken been mentioned. How worried are your colleagues been taken out been mentioned. How worried are your colleagues been taken out by been mentioned. How worried are your colleagues been taken out by the been mentioned. How worried are your colleagues been taken out by the lib. Colleagues been taken out by the lib dems . ,. ,. ,. , dems . This is what i mean about the fact we should dems . This is what i mean about the fact we should take dems . This is what i mean about the fact we should take every dems . This is what i mean about the fact we should take every seat fact we should take every seat really fact we should take every seat really seriously despite my slightly negative really seriously despite my slightly negative prognosis of the General Election. Negative prognosis of the General Election, ed davey is playing with inflatable dinosaurs was his latest stunt~ inflatable dinosaurs was his latest stunt. He inflatable dinosaurs was his latest stunt. ,. ,. ,. , we stunt. He does love a photocall. We won a byelection stunt. He does love a photocall. We won a byelection on stunt. He does love a photocall. We won a byelection on thursday stunt. He does love a photocall. We. Won a byelection on thursday where won a by election on thursday where the lilt won a by election on thursday where the lib dems were snapping at our heels, the lib dems were snapping at our heels, they the lib dems were snapping at our heels, they have run the council for 40 years heels, they have run the council for 40 years but heels, they have run the council for 40 years but they cannot make inroads 40 years but they cannot make inroads in 40 years but they cannot make inroads in what was a labour seat which inroads in what was a labour seat which we inroads in what was a labour seat which we won from them. What about the activist vote . Which we won from them. What about the activist vote . People which we won from them. What about the activist vote . People unhappy the activist vote . People unhappy with the middle east but they want labour to be more bold on the environment. Labour to be more bold on the environment. ,. ,. , environment. There are all sorts of thins in environment. There are all sorts of things in a environment. There are all sorts of things in a local environment. There are all sorts of things in a local council environment. There are all sorts of things in a local Council Election. Things in a local Council Election where things in a local Council Election where people things in a local Council Election where people can things in a local Council Election where people can vote things in a local Council Election where people can vote in things in a local Council Election i where people can vote in different ways. Where people can vote in different ways. Perhaps where people can vote in different ways, perhaps something where people can vote in different ways, perhaps something is where people can vote in different ways, perhaps something is reallyj ways, perhaps something is really important ways, perhaps something is really important locally, ways, perhaps something is really important locally, local ways, perhaps something is really important locally, local planning l important locally, local planning issues, important locally, local planning issues, all important locally, local planning issues, all sorts important locally, local planning issues, all sorts of important locally, local planning issues, all sorts of things, important locally, local planning issues, all sorts of things, but l issues, all sorts of things, but that issues, all sorts of things, but that is issues, all sorts of things, but that is not issues, all sorts of things, but that is not going issues, all sorts of things, but that is not going to issues, all sorts of things, but that is not going to influence i issues, all sorts of things, but. That is not going to influence the overall that is not going to influence the overall direction that is not going to influence the overall direction of that is not going to influence the overall direction of the that is not going to influence the overall direction of the country. That is not going to influence the. Overall direction of the country and when overall direction of the country and when we overall direction of the country and when we eventually overall direction of the country and when we eventually get overall direction of the country and when we eventually get to overall direction of the country and when we eventually get to a overall direction of the country and i when we eventually get to a General Election when we eventually get to a General Election people when we eventually get to a General Election people will when we eventually get to a General Election people will have when we eventually get to a General Election people will have to when we eventually get to a General Election people will have to ask election people will have to ask themselves election people will have to ask themselves if election people will have to ask themselves if they election people will have to ask themselves if they want election people will have to ask themselves if they want a election people will have to ask. Themselves if they want a labour election people will have to ask themselves if they want a labour or conservative themselves if they want a labour or conservative government. Themselves if they want a labour or conservative government. To themselves if they want a labour or conservative government. To be. Conservative government. To be honest. Conservative government. To be honest. It conservative government. To be honest. If you conservative government. To be honest, if you are conservative government. To be honest, if you are concerned conservative government. To be. Honest, if you are concerned about the environment, honest, if you are concerned about the environment, interested honest, if you are concerned about the environment, interested in the environment, interested in social the environment, interested in socialiustice. The environment, interested in socialjustice, you the environment, interested in socialjustice, you want the environment, interested in socialjustice, you want to the environment, interested in socialjustice, you want to the i socialjustice, you want to the sorts socialjustice, you want to the sorts of socialjustice, you want to the sorts of things socialjustice, you want to the sorts of things people socialjustice, you want to the sorts of things people are socialjustice, you want to the sorts of things people are probably voting sorts of things people are probably voting green sorts of things people are probably voting green for sorts of things people are probably voting green for at sorts of things people are probably voting green for at the sorts of things people are probably voting green for at the moment,. Sorts of things people are probably. Voting green for at the moment, you will get voting green for at the moment, you will get that voting green for at the moment, you will get that it voting green for at the moment, you will get that if you voting green for at the moment, you will get that if you elect voting green for at the moment, you will get that if you elect a voting green for at the moment, you will get that if you elect a labour will get that if you elect a Labour Government will get that if you elect a Labour Government i will get that if you elect a Labour Government. I think will get that if you elect a Labour Government. I think that will get that if you elect a Labour Government. I think that will will get that if you elect a Labour Government. I think that will be i will get that if you elect a labour i government. I think that will be the battle, government. I think that will be the battle, notwithstanding government. I think that will be the battle, notwithstanding as government. I think that will be the battle, notwithstanding as i battle, notwithstanding as i suggested battle, notwithstanding as i suggested earlier, battle, notwithstanding as i suggested earlier, labour. Battle, notwithstanding as i. Suggested earlier, labour will battle, notwithstanding as i suggested earlier, labour will need to explain suggested earlier, labour will need to explain clearly suggested earlier, labour will need to explain clearly to suggested earlier, labour will need to explain clearly to people suggested earlier, labour will need to explain clearly to people how, i to explain clearly to people how, despite to explain clearly to people how, despite recent to explain clearly to people how, despite recent changes to explain clearly to people how, despite recent changes in to explain clearly to people how, despite recent changes in policy, they will despite recent changes in policy, they will make despite recent changes in policy, they will make a despite recent changes in policy, they will make a difference, despite recent changes in policy, they will make a difference, that| they will make a difference, that this government they will make a difference, that this government have they will make a difference, that this government have failed they will make a difference, that this government have failed to l they will make a difference, that. This government have failed to do, on climate this government have failed to do, on climate change. This government have failed to do, on climate change. This government have failed to do, on climate change. They have to tell that story more on climate change. They have to tell that story more clearly. On climate change. They have to tell that story more clearly. Reform on climate change. They have to tell that story more clearly. Reform is i that story more clearly. Reform is the party which has come out of the ancestors, the brexit party and ukip, they came within a whisker of beating the tories into third place in the Blackpool South by election. How worried should your party be about the threat from the right, maybe even a nigel farage comeback . Reform blame people without Actual Solutions reform blame people without Actual Solutions. We have to focus on that palpable solutions. We have to focus on that palpable anger and frustration of voters palpable anger and frustration of voters but as with what jackie was saying. Voters but as with what jackie was saying. If voters but as with what jackie was saying, if they want true conservatives in parliament they will not conservatives in parliament they will not get it from reform. But you could be squeezed will not get it from reform. But you could be squeezed from will not get it from reform. But you could be squeezed from both will not get it from reform. But you | could be squeezed from both sides . If we do not have a vision then we will if we do not have a vision then we will a if we do not have a vision then we will. �. ,. ,. , will. A nightmare vision, imagine Boris Johnson will. A nightmare vision, imagine Boris Johnson and will. A nightmare vision, imagine Boris Johnson and nigel will. A nightmare vision, imagine Boris Johnson and nigel farage i will. A nightmare vision, imagine | Boris Johnson and nigel farage in borisjohnson and nigel farage in some borisjohnson and nigel farage in some sort borisjohnson and nigel farage in some sort of borisjohnson and nigel farage in some sort of strange borisjohnson and nigel farage in i some sort of strange arrangement, which some sort of strange arrangement, which at some sort of strange arrangement, which at least some sort of strange arrangement, which at least one some sort of strange arrangement, which at least one of some sort of strange arrangement, which at least one of the some sort of strange arrangement, i which at least one of the newspapers was talking which at least one of the newspapers was talking about which at least one of the newspapers was talking about today. Which at least one of the newspapers was talking about today. Id which at least one of the newspapers was talking about today. Was talking about today. Id rather not think about was talking about today. Id rather not think about that was talking about today. Id rather not think about that lets was talking about today. Id rather not think about that lets hear i not think about that lets hear from you whatever happens it will be an eventful few weeks and months ahead. Thank you to my trio at the desk. Thank you for your company on a really important weekend when weve been working out what the thousands of winners and losers across the country mean for what comes next and sketching out the nightmare facing rishi runak and the chance in front of keir starmer. These results do not prove that labour will get a majority and we cannot say it often enough that in political time the General Election is centuries away, but there is no question that the tories are in deep trouble, however much they will want to acknowledge that in public. Ill be on newscast shortly with paddy oconnell, and you can catch up with the show on the bbc iplayer. I look forward to seeing you here next sunday, same time, same place. Live from london, this is bbc news. Despite a crushing defeat for the conservatives, rishi sunak vows to stick conservatives, rishi sunak vows to stick to conservatives, rishi sunak vows to stick to his conservatives, rishi sunak vows to stick to his plan. Stick to his plan. Party members voiced concerns stick to his plan. Party members voiced concerns about stick to his plan. Party members voiced concerns about losses stick to his plan. Party members voiced concerns about losses in l stick to his plan. Party members i voiced concerns about losses in the local and mayoral elections. At this rate, we will be lucky to have any conservative mps at the next election. And we need to fight and im not willing to give up. Attempts to secure a ceasefire in gaza will continue for another day in cairo. Entire communities are ordered to evacuate after devastating deadly floods hit brazil with waters continuing to rise. Love is all we need and madonna has staged her biggest ever concert to an audience of more than a million fans on copacabana beach in rio. Hello. We start with the fallout from local elections in england. Suella braverman has told the bbc the conservatives will be lucky to have any mps left at the next General Election if rishi sunak doesnt change course. The tories are reeling after one of their worst performances in local elections in decades. Labour is celebrating a key win in the West Midlands mayoral race after its candidate, Richard Parker, narrowly beat the conservatives andy street, who had served two terms in the role