Understanding as to whats at stake if ukraine is unable to push russia out of its country. We see russia mobilising, continuously mobilising, even though its not officially declared. We see them arming, we see them entering what is called a war economy, producing weapons, getting weapons from iran and north korea. And with the momentum on the battlefield in eastern ukraine. Exactly. And us faltering, stumbling. And whenever, you know, balts speak usually or, you know, the countries from the Eastern Flank would speak, its notjust because we feel that its morally right to defend ukraine, but we also take this as an existential question. That means that if russia is not stopped in ukraine, it will continue because a machine that size, its very difficult to stop and it needs to. It cannot be stopped with just, you know, well wishing. It has to be stopped by military means. Do you think americas eventual commitment of that 60 billion worth of aid and assistance to ukraine has been a game changer . Or do you fear that, still, the biden administration, even in the speed that it is sending the new arms to ukraine, is constrained by a wish not to escalate with putin . Yeah, i think that, you know, weve been, since the very beginning, when the west formulated its strategy towards the war in ukraine, against ukraine, it has been more about the red lines to ourselves. You know, weve been sending messages to putin like, were not going to do this, were not going to do that, and, you know, all these messaging so that were not part of this, not of this conflict. And i think it hindered. It hindered our political Decision Making process, it hindered our ability to explain the situation to our electorates. Youre using the past tense, but is it still. . Its still there. Its still there, obviously. I mean, we changed throughout the, you know, couple of years. You know, at first, we said that were not going to send, you know, this sort of ammunition, not this sort of equipment. And now were there, were sending this. But i dont think that we have grasped the concept that we need to establish red lines not to us, but to putin. He needs to be deterred on continuing, you know, because if now he knows that we are deterring ourselves, there are things that were not going to do, and with what you started, with Nuclear Threats, its him deterring us. Its him saying, look, if youre going to support ukraine to a certain extent, i might do something. But whats your message, then . You know, when, in the last 48 hours, we have putin ordering his military to deploy Battlefield Nuclear Weapons in another Training Exercise which is going to be pretty close to ukraine, the ukrainian border, when he does that, is your message to western partners, ah, ignore it, its simply a bluff. Forget about the russians being the most powerful Nuclear Weapons state in the world. Its irrelevant. Hell absolutely never use them . Is that your message . I would ask a question. Can we count the times that he did that in the past . And i tell you, thats a number of times. He said. So its all bluff . Its always. It was always a bluff. He has nothing to gain from it. He has all to lose. You know, now, he has certain countries on his side. At least he believes that, right . He has china that is clearly supporting russia. He has certain, you know, countries from the Global Partners you know, in africa and Latin America that are closer to putins camp. He would lose that in an instant if he would get real. The thing is, you dont persuade people like jake sullivan, the National Security advisor in washington, when you say that, cos he clearly is concerned about the danger, the real danger of escalation. You dont convince other european leaders like olaf scholz, who many times has referred to his desire to avoid dangerous escalation. They believe in this concept of avoiding escalation. Yeah, but, i mean, its. The only path that our strategy leads to i mean, if were sticking to this strategy it might lead to devastation of a country and it might lead to an actual conflict, you know, thats outside ukraine. Other countries might be involved because, basically, its. Were sending a very clear signal to putin if you threaten us, we back down. So now we have to ask a question if he would attack another country and threaten with tactical nukes, what would we do . And this is the biggest problem that we do have. Thats why we need to push back. Thats why we need to push back, that if you would test anything, the answer would be ten times worse that you would expect right now. Right, but thats the language of a spiral leading, frankly, to armageddon. I mean, youre the foreign minister of lithuania. And with all due respect, you know, youre a fairly small country in europe. In washington, in berlin, in london and, of course, in moscow you know, they have to really consider very carefully the strategic realities in a way that perhaps, living in vilnius, you know, youre a little bit divorced from actual responsibility. Well, we are not divorced from actual reality. Well, thats true. You know, we are, you know, a country that is a front line country, and we are the closest you know, as nato gets to where the war is. So we. You know, we tend to measure our words, and we believe that giving in to bullying actually leads to more bullying. And this is, you know, what we started, why the war is so. Why were so worried about the situation currently, you know, why it worries us so much, because we believe that russia has no. We are not putting any guardrails for russia to move ahead. And i dont honestly, you know, believe that the assistance is a game changer. Honestly, i believe that at least the sense is right now that theres a certain calming down in the west when the congress approved, you know, the package kind of, oh, ok, you know, we dodged the bullet once, and maybe now we need to reconsider. You know, we gained some time. You know, the time is against us. Russians are building up. Theyre moving ahead. The logistics takes time and its not delivered. The whole package is not delivered, you know, in one swoop, so. Does it look like its being delivered slowly to you . I know that there has been some preparations and certain elements are already moving in. At least this is, you know, what we have, information from ukrainians, but its far from everything. So it will reach ukraine, but we have to imagine that the other side is not waiting, you know, kind of giving us time, giving us respite and. Waiting until we have everything that we need, you know, in orderfor us to feel comfortable. They will use this moment until ukraine is at the most vulnerable. And this is where we need to step up. You. Weve talked extensively about the Nuclear Threat and the strategies behind responding to putins Nuclear Threats. But you say, more widely, we need to remove our own red lines. And thats an echo of something that president macron said just a few days ago, when he did ponder out loud about the possibility of, ultimately, notjust france, but nato partners sending troops onto the ground in ukraine. Do you believe that is a serious possibility . And would you, in lithuania, be prepared to send your own men and women to fight in ukraine . I think it cannot be moved out from the table. And this is. Ive been very clear from the very start that lithuania will be part of any coalition that will help ukraine win with our limited capacity, with our, you know, limited resources that we do have. We understand the size of our country. But then, again, whenever certain solutions are offered, decisions are being discussed, theres always a no at the table. And this is. You know, its not helping us. You know, we cannot build a united front if theres always a country that says, look, you know, this is going too far. Therefore, you know, we supported france and the french president when he. But the problem. Yes, you supported france, but clearly many others didnt. The germans didnt. The americans didnt. But thats not the expectation. No, but the danger of you talking the way youre talking with me today, the danger is that you simply expose the very deep divisions within the so called Western Alliance backing ukraine, cos the divisions are very real and theyre very deep. But theyre already exposed. And i dont think that its that big of a problem because. You dont . No, i dont think so. Dont you think putin will be listening to our conversation and actually enjoying the fact that youre saying things that would be never said in berlin or washington . Well, im sure that putin knows that, you know, there are certain countries that are not sending long range missiles to ukraine. But then, again, there are countries who say, look, we can do this, and were in one of those countries right now. And there are countries who say, look, you know, our technology can never be used to attack targets in russia, while there are countries and were in one now which says, you can actually do that with the weapons that we provide. So there is no unity, right . But it provides a strategic opportunity for ukraine. They are able to use what they get. They are getting certain technology that otherwise, if we would be just sticking to the lowest denominator, we would not be having, you know, any sort of this conversation, and probably ukraine might not even exist. You seem to be absolutely insistent that ukraine can win and win in terms of recovering every inch of its sovereign territory, including crimea. There are so many people within your partner and Alliance Group in the west who simply they may not say it publicly, but privately do not believe that. But its up to us. A war requires. Two things. One thing is political will. The second is logistics. But theres also a role for realism and honesty. No, but, i mean, ukrainians clearly show that they have political will more than enough. Right now, theres a real problem in ukraine in convincing young men that it is in their interest to join the armed forces. Mobilisation is a real problem. Its very difficult to mobilise people when youre not providing them ammunition. And again, its on us. So i would, you know, if i were to look for the problems, i would put a very big mirror and sit in front of it and ask questions, not to ukrainians, but to our own leaders, where we are. Are we serious about this . Do we understand the consequences if ukraine is unable to win . Because, honestly, i. You know, ive participated in the conversation and ive heard the arguments, but ive never heard a real answer as to how one imagines a putin would stop, a person like putin would stop. What leverages do you expect to have . Are you expecting to make a phone call or Something Like that . At which point, why would he stop . You know, with. Well, lets continue with that idea of, why and where would putin stop . You seem notjust to be very involved and a very hawkish advocate of more assistance to ukraine and ukraine winning its war. But you also seem to be sending a message, both to your own people and to the wider public in europe and the United States, that your country, too, is under very real threat from russia. You seem to be saying that you could actually envisage a russian attack on lithuania coming very quickly. Where do you get any evidence to support that . Well, you know, at the very beginning, answering yourfirst question, isaid, its notjust morally right to support ukraine, its existential. No, but arent you just sowing a fear amongst your own people, a fear that isnt actually justified . Even your own president , at the end of last year, told you to take a seat and calm down after youd suggested it was only a matter of time before russia sent troops. Im not the only one to suggest that, and you probably know that, you know, a number of leaders in Eastern Flank were saying exactly the same thing. I mean, even the German Defence minister is saying exactly the same thing on his way to reform his military force. Yeah, he was talking about a five to eight year timeframe. Youre talking about a much more immediate one. In fact, it led the commander of your own countrys armed forces to say, this year, next year, the possibility of a war between russia and a nato country is very low, extremely low. No, im not being quoted correctly. My estimations are not different from other countries in our region. The thing is that the situation might change, depending on how ukraine fares. If ukraine is able to win and to push, you know, the front back and, you know, kind of to sustain its victory, so to say, winning in the front, then i think that were in a very much different strategic situation. If they are unable, and if, you know, the situation deteriorates fast, this is where dangers come from. And weve talked a lot about your dissatisfaction with the level of support and assistance being given to ukraine. What about the level of Military Support and backing being given to the Baltic States within nato . Mm hm. You know, the germans, for example, have committed to providing a brigade of troops specifically to protect lithuania. But as i understand it, its now clear, those troops arent going to be fully ready and in place until 2027. And theres still a debate in germany about how many of them will actually be sent to your country, and how many will remain inside germany. No, the debate is. I think we have that settled. Do you . Yes, its a full, combat ready brigade and, you know, the amount is about 5,000. All on your territory . All on our territory. And we have to be. You know, its a task for us as well. And how do you think the russians are going to respond to that . Well, thats, you know, not the biggest of our concerns at this point. Shouldnt it be . Because we are reacting to what the russians are doing already. I understand but, again, we come back to this spiral and to each side accusing the other of escalatory action. And, you know, nato not so long ago was promising there wouldnt be permanent nato bases inside the Baltic States. Now, youre saying were going to have 5,000 german troops. And i noticed the president of poland is even advocating for Nuclear Weapons to be positioned on his territory. Yeah, and that might not be even enough. I mean, im not talking about the polish decision, but im saying about the 5,000. You know, we would expect even more troops in the baltics. And the same happening in latvia, you know, with a canadian brigade being deployed there, and, you know, us talking about universal conscription. Its not been decided yet. But basically, we have to be open eyed and clear eyed as to what is happening outside our borders. Just one quick thought about whats happening inside your borders right now. One of your officials, the head of the Lithuanian NationalCrisis Management centre, said that russia is already systematically conducting Disinformation Campaigns and provocations inside lithuania in order to raise tension. How concerned are you about the reality of this sort of hybrid, Cyber Warfare . Yeah, very concerned. And its not just. Its Notjust The Cyber Element and its not just disinformation. Its already, you know, were seeing kinetic action as well, meaning that there are, you know, people being hired or being instructed from russia, you know, to operate within nato territory. We still call it a hybrid area because its, you know, not a direct attack on the country, but its an uncharted territory that i think merits an answer. And, as well, we need to start drawing red lines. We see whats happening. We know. And one more thing on this. You cant protect russian dissidents on your own territory, it seems. Leonid volkov, whos a close ally of alexei navalny, was actually attacked with a Hammer Inside your country. Are you doing more now to protect russian dissidents . And there are hundreds of them on your territory. There are russians and then belarusians and, obviously, ukrainians who, you know, who chose to stay in lithuania and other countries. Were doing everything that we can to protect them. And the good news is that the people who attacked russian opposition, they have been apprehended. But it tells you something that, basically, russia is active in nato territories. So, for us, actually, you know, in order to be safe, to secure the people, our people, and those who chose to live with us, those who fled the regimes in belarus and in russia, we need to step up. Lets. And it needs also combined effort. You know, its. We cannot expect, you know, just a country like lithuania, who are standing alone. Right, lets move to a different geopolitical arena. I mean, many would argue, maybe a lot of lithuanians would argue, that it was foolish of you, while you are so intent on combating what you see as the very real, present danger of russia, the threat posed by russia, was it wise of you to pick a fight with china at the very same time, which is exactly what you, as foreign minister, have chosen to do . Well, we never picked up a fight with china. Thats a very common misunderstanding. We intended to support the island of taiwan, which opened a Representative Office in lithuania. And you chose to allow this office to be designated as the office of taiwan, where, in many other european capitals, they find a form of words, usually referring to taipei, which, of course, is the capital. But i think we. Without using that word taiwan. You knew it was going to massively annoy indeed, infuriate beijing, but you allowed it to happen. Yes, but this is the way that democracies support each other. And lithuania was supported in 1990s by, you know, a small island of iceland. You know, when it was the first country, you know, to support our independence, and it suffered from moscow, you know. It was sanctioned by soviet union back then, but still it was the first country to recognise lithuanias independence. So, definitely, there is merit to, you know, to democracies supporting each other. Isnt the truth, foreign minister, that you massively underestimated what the chinese reaction was going to be . No, i think that they wanted. You know, they moved the red line themselves. You know, kind of, this is. You could have predicted it, but you didnt. Indeed, yourformer Deputy Foreign minister said, yes, chinas harsh response was unforeseen. So, i guess that was a failing on your part. Well, i think that it was a new phenomenon. I mean, its massively hit many businesses in your country. It has. Trade with china, obviously, has fallen off a cliff, cos china is no longer prepared to trade with you. Theyve tried to stop other Multinational Companies having trade ties with lithuania. Look. I have to, you know, stop you there. You know, using words like massively, its not completely correct. Lithuania has never been exposed, you know, to chinas market, as some other countries are. No, i take your point. You were never hugely tied to china, but in terms of the actual monetary value of trade with china, it went down from 350 Million Euros in 2020 to 100 million after you took this decision. Yes, its like one tenth of what we have in our trade with czech republic. So, honestly, i think that we. You know, it was survival. I guess, the bigger diplomatic point, and you are, you know. But i would. I would like to answer that still. Europe getting tough with china. Hang on, we dont have much time. I just want to get to this point. You went to brussels and you said this in december 2021. You said to your european colleagues, a strong reaction is necessary at eu level in order to send a signal to china that politically motivated economic pressure will not be tolerated. Well, here we are in 202a. German exports to china are still massive. As we speak, the french, president macron et al, are hosting president xi. Your desire to see europe get tough with china, well, it hasnt. Imean, its. Followed through, has it . I think that we are on the verge of falling in the same trap that we have been with, with russia. You know, a massive dependence, which very quickly becomes political. And to answer your previous question, we diversified. We actually did what many countries are preaching currently. De risking is the keyword in many capitals, here as well. And we de risked. You know, falling off the cliff is not the right word. You know, we diversified. The trade went to other countries. You know, weve increased by 36 our exports to indo pacific. Thats a big number. And now, i mean, even ourtrade with china now is back. You know, even though we are completely not doing anything about it. I mean, just, you know, its starting to open up. If i may, theres a big strategic sort of picture here, and i wonder how you fit, for example, with president macron� s, er, strongly stated view that it would, quote, be a big mistake for europe to get dragged into a confrontation between china and the us over taiwan. Its part of his message to europe that we have to develop strategic autonomy. We have to cut some of those ties to the United States. Well, look. Given that we can no longer trust the United States to act in europes interest. You in lithuania seem to take a different view. Well, i dont believe that we can actually trust a country that is using trade as a weapon. Thats for one. I dont think that we can trust a country thats supporting russia in its war, in its illegal war against ukraine. So this is where my argument comes from. But should lithuania be in lockstep with the United States, particularly at a time when us politics is so deeply uncertain and we may be looking at the prospect of a Trump Presidency again . Imean, we. At this point, we see our interest in this. And its clear. You know, with that i started. You know, first of all, its supporting other democracies, right . Because we came out into the. You know, we were rediscovered as a country and we came back from the occupation in a very similar manner. We were supported by others. So thats one thing. And then theres a practical element, right . A dependency on a non democratic country is, it will hinder you in the future. It will harm you in the future. Weve seen that with russia. This is a very practical argument. Sadly, we have to end there. But gabrielius landsbergis, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello. Weve got a long awaited spell of dry and sunny weather for many of us over the next few days. Not quite dry everywhere. A bit of rain around across the far north of scotland. And well also see some misty, murky patches during the mornings. They could be a little bit slow to clear. So, not wall to wall blue skies for the next few days, but High Pressure is bringing a lot of dry, settled weather, with light winds, too. Now, were likely to start thursday morning with that patchy rain in the far northwest, but further south, i think some mist and some fog patches around here and there, particularly so for parts of the southwest of england and wales. Could be some mistiness creeping in to east anglia. Around some of these irish sea coasts, the isle of man, towards cumbria, some of that fog could be quite slow to clear. For scotland, therell be some brighter spells across eastern areas like aberdeenshire, for instance but therell be more cloud and outbreaks of rain moving in across the western isles, parts of highland too. That rain looks like it eases away, pushes a little bit further northward. So for much of the uk, dry with sunny spells, and thats going to lift those temperatures to somewhere between around 19 22 degrees for many of us. Just a little bit cooler across the north of scotland. Now, through thursday evening, overnight into friday, weve got some more rain thatll push across parts of highland. Elsewhere, dry once again, relatively mild temperatures in double figures for many of us. But, again, i think friday morning could see a few misty patches that will gradually clear away. So, friday itself, i think longer spells of sunshine on offer, light winds and those temperatures probably up a degree or so. So, more widely, were looking at temperatures in the low 20s, possibly the mid 20s in the south. Still a little cooler than that for stornoway and lerwick, for instance. Into the weekend, High Pressure still close, but it slips away towards the east, and that will just open the doors for areas of low pressure to try and move in from the west. But i think saturday itself, a good deal of dry weather. Cloud will tend to bubble up through the day, and that could just spark off one or two showers, perhaps northern england, southern scotland, but theyll be hit and miss. Temperatures are again up in the mid 20s could see 2a in one or two places. Similar start to the day on sunday, but youll notice these showers trying to push in towards the west. They could be quite slow moving, potentially heavy and thundery in places. Where it does stay dry, probably towards the south and southeast, we could well see temperatures again in the mid 20s, but then it looks like the showers will dominate as we head into next week. So, more unsettled weather on the cards for the start of next week. Still a little bit warmer than average, but not as warm as the next few days. Live from london, this is bbc news. President biden warns israel the us will stop supplying some weapons if it launches a major Ground Invasion in rafah. Chinas president xijinping is in hungary to deepen relations with their closest ally in the European Union as Chinese Investment soars in the country. And the second semifinal of eurovision is set to take place amidst heightened security in anticipation of protests as israel takes the stage. Hello. Im sally bundock. Very im sally bundock. Warm welcome to the programme. President biden has said the us will not supply heavy weapons to israel that could be used in a major assault on the southern gazan city of rafah. In an interview with cnn, mr biden said america would continue to give israel the weapons it needed to defend itself, including interceptors for its � iron dome� air defence system. But he said us supplied heavy weapons had already killed civilians in gaza, and that israel would not keep washingtons support if it carried out military operations in those population centres. It comes after the Us State Department confirmed that one arms shipment destined for israel was delayed last week, and others were being reviewed. Civilians had been killed in gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centres, and they declare that if they go