Living in an age of global populism, a transition as profound as those in 1848, 1905, 1968. Give me a primer on global populism today because it affects american politics, european politics, and you are saying it is the age of global populism. David i compare it to those years because there are certain pivots in history where countries all around the world are facing the same problem but answering in different ways. 1848, workers revolution. 1905, you had the progressive era, industrialization. 1968, the rise of the bohemian radicals. And now we are facing the rise of populism. I read over a bunch of my old columns just to prepare for this a very humbling experience. What i see is me and a lot of people noodling over the same issues. We are just trying to figure out we are in this Pivotal Moment and what exactly is going on. The thought that occurred to me this morning was i was in europe in the 1990s. I saw the decline of the soviet union, german reunification, mandela coming out of prison, the oslo peace process. I saw a great advance of what we call liberalism. I dont mean that as Walter Mondale liberalism. I mean that as john locke liberalism. The idea that a free conversation, a free trade, movement of people, global democracy and it was on the advance. Now what we have seen since starting in yugoslavia but since it is in retreat. It started to retreat in the 1990s really with some of the factional fighting. And then the decline of democracies around the world. And now with our own shores. Sometimes an assault on democracy, a tolerance for authoritarianism. But even the habits of liberalism. Respecting the truth, having open conversation whether it is on campus or the campaign trail. It seems to be in retreat and in a crisis. Populists are people who decided that system of openness is not working for me. I dont approve of the open integration, open trade, of global immigration. I dont approve of anyone who could live anywhere who look down on me when i am rooted here in my specific land. They are rebelling all around the world. Charlie you have used this expression that people from somewhere and people from anywhere. The interesting thing to me, i guess the best reflection might have been brexit recently, apart from the political election that was a referendum, and here, the election of donald trump. But looking at what happened in, on tuesday, what did that election say about the rise of populism . David because we are not at a normal moment. Normally, you have electoral swings. The president is unpopular so the other party wins. This is not like that. Because the basic tectonics of normal moment. Normally, you have electoral politics in our society are shifting. To me, what happened was it used to be the democrats really did well in the cities, the republicans did really well in the farms. The suburbs were in contention. Inner ring suburbs with professionals tend to vote democratic. Outer ring suburbs like Loudoun County, virginia or douglas county, colorado, they were more corporate managers and voted republican. This was the basic geographic alignment of our politics. Now, the republicans have their farms and they have given Everything Else away to the democrats. The split between the suburban managers, outer rings, that is over. What we saw in virginia is the outer ring voted just like the inner ring for the democrats. That is because whether you are a corporate manager or an urban ring profession, you are in favor of globalization. You are defined by your skills, not where you live. And they want a society that has open trade, open globalization. So, what you see is a realignment of a lot of the former republicans that were favorable to globalization are now becoming democrats. And that is why i think the democrats charlie is it more sustaining beyond one election period . David i think it is because it is not just trump. The Republican Party has become the party of the somewheres. The party of people who are rejecting a meritocracy, rejecting globalization at least extremely skeptical of it. It is deeper than just one person. Second, i think it is going to be a long time before a party that is frankly stained by trump can erase that stain, and we have seen parties like that. This strikes me as a much deeper does it mean the democrats are suddenly going to have 30 years of total dominance . Possibly, but you look around the world and you do not see leftwing dominance at this moment. What you see is leftwing parties collapsing around europe. Charlie except in britain. David except in britain where they have come back from the mistakes of the brexit. So, what you are seeing i would include britain in this the collapse of parties altogether. All the parties all at once. The fragmentation of parties out to the marginal parties and the collapse of the centrist parties. I think you will see some of that in britain. That is how they talk all of our parties are in decay. It is interesting here because the parliamentary system has a lot of parties. We just have two, so what does a Party Collapse look like when you only have two parties . That is an interesting question and to me the answer is what you get is the parties being taken over by small minorities, small passionate minorities within the parties like steve bannon. Charlie lets talk about steve bannon. Steve bannon talks about being a populist. He suggests that populism is here to stay, but does not know whether it will be populism in the end from the left or from the right. David i agree with him. Around the time you had your 60 minutes interview, i met with him. It was like meeting trotsky in 1905. It was like he has a 50year plan or 100 year plan, like sarah palin was part of the plan, Patrick Buchanan was part of the plan. Donald trump is just one little chapter in the plan. Taking over institutions, creating a battle of ideas i think he is right. Charlie you think he is right on . David that it will be around forever. That is the fundamental definition of our era. Populism and response to populism. Populism or liberalism. These are the two sides. What is striking about this battle is the populists are filled with conviction. They are organized, like people like bannon. The liberals would call them those who believe in free change im one. Were dispersed. We have no conviction, we have no faith in ourselves and we are so used to defending the things we believe in, we have forgotten all of the arguments. Charlie the Newt Gingrich revolution and the conservatives that preceded it when it became a movement, like we used to say from buckley to reagan and forward, that was a movement. Did that have conviction, did that have ideas . David for sure. My mentor was william f. Buckley. When i joined the National Review in 1985 or 1984, it had a long history. We had a very cohesive movement mentality and a set of ideas that were right for that moment, in my view. The book that explains all of this is the structure of scientific revolutions. You have a paradigm. You have this framework that seems to explain reality and over time, the facts begin to contradict the framework. And then you get somebody who comes in and smashes the paradigm and that was donald over time, the facts begin to trump. He came in and poof, the republican paradigm just collapsed. And then you get a period of competing paradigms to see what is next. Trump is like i compared him to abby huffman. Abby huffman was not a great political planner, but he was great at political theater. He used theater to expose the weaknesses of the old order. That is donald trump. Charlie is the damage that you believe donald trump has done, how would you characterize it . David he has degraded public life. David he has degraded public life. Hes aroused a bigotry. Hes degraded intellectual virtue, to use a pompous term. The idea that you should be, try to be honest and if somebody exposes that you are against the evidence, you at least try to feel uncomfortable about that fact. I think he has destroyed the Republican Party as i know it and a lot of my friends have known it. I dont think it is coming back to what it was. I should say hes not the only destroyer. It aged. It stayed stuck with Ronald Reagan and stuck with reaganism from 1980 to 2017, long after it should have been retired. The old order this is true across this whole deal the old order is complicit in its own destruction. Liberalism, broadly defined, really did Pay Attention to a lot of the people who are suffering from it. The meritocracy and the privileging of Ivy League Schools and all of that, those people really did drift off into another universe filled with selfsatisfaction, high incomes, no contact with anybody else. So when you look at the historical transition in the way we are in, it is not like the peasants rose up and theyre the last gasp of the dying white america. There were significant flaws within the establishment that had to be addressed by somebody. If the establishment was too lame to do it themselves, donald trump was happy to do that. Charlie did donald trump win that election or did Hillary Clinton lose it . David of course, the answer is always both, but i would say that you have to blame the republicans lost to trump and hillary and they didnt understand what year they were in. They did not understand what debate they were having. They still thought the debate was Big Government versus small government. Donald trump knew it was open versus closed, and he was having a different debate. He was going to use government in this, in his promises, and not use it for that. Frankly, i still see the democratic reaction to the republican tax plan as old thinking. Henry ford can sell every color model t as long as they were black. He had one model. The democrats respond to every republican tax plan by saying it is money going to the rich, taking away from the poor. Charlie it is a political slogan. David that is sort of true but not really the truth. The republican tax plan takes a lot of money away from the rich. They just happen to be democratic rich people who live republican tax plan by saying it in states like new york and california, who live in homes where their mortgages are over 500,000. Who work at elite universities. There are a lot of stuff in the republican plan that takes away from rich people, but basically it is an argument against blue state rich people and for corporations. It is the belief that corporations are the tool to generate broad spread wealth. I believe that Human Capital is the tool to generate broad spread wealth so i would not tax universities or student loans, but republicans do not believe in that. They do not believe in a meritocracy in a way that i believe in it, they believe in corporations. It is a different debate than just we are taking from the poor corporations. It is a different debate than just we are taking from the poor to give to the rich. It is a much more complicated debate. Charlie because of a believe corporations will create a vital and growing economy. David that is their belief. It is not a stupid belief. Yeah. Our corporate taxes are way high and suffer us to compete for global investment. Charlie they have billions of dollars they could use. David there is one study that if you did corporate reform right, you would increase median household income. Charlie you raised the point in todays column that if the democratic majority which came out of the election on tuesday is to succeed and sustain itself, they would have to have a practical plan to to enhance universal mobility. Dominance,democratic if they can find a way to create that, then they can dominate because those people who are providing majorities for them in the election, that is what they are looking for. David their lives are all about rising. In Northern Virginia where this election was decided this week, the immigrants who were there the immigrant richness in Northern Virginia is amazing. The whites who live in Loudoun County and work around the dulles, they believe an upward mobility. If democrats say we will get you you jobools, give training, give you a sense that your life is on the move. American mobility is on the client and that is talking to those people. The democrats will move left, no question. About that is not where the people in Loudoun County and douglas county, aboutcolorado. Ohio that is to them oldfashioned liberalism and not where they are right now. M is time when populatiois rising in the Democratic Party, the party has to look for populism or an agenda that is more about universalism. Not about rich versus poor, but we can all rise together. Charlie what is the populism within the Democratic Party . David the believe that the oligarchy is rigging the system. Charlie Bernie Sanders is the perfect example of laying everything on the foot of wall street. David that fundamental inequality is the top 1 . It is not the top 1 , it is the top 20 . A less good bogeyman story to tell. The problem is the meritocracy and how people with degrees are investing in their children and isolating themselves through marriage and Everything Else and becoming more attenuated from the rest of the country. Charlie this is in part what inspired the arab spring. The recognition because of the access to media, because of the internet. These people and saw a lot of different people doingthe probld they werent because of autocratic regimes and because they saw unemployment at eye level. They saw the world of competition and places where they were doing quite well. They revolted. Certainly in egypt, that was what it was about. Charlie i did not cover that but i covered ukraine, russia, er soviet union. Vid we thought we had it figured out. And a lot of people in the middle east and apparently here said no, that is not the answer and they are much more open to other answers. The reason they think that is not the answer is because it is not working for them, but that it creates a crisis of social solidarity. It creates too much loneliness, social fragmentation. It is not giving them the Rich Community which is the essence of a good life. The failure of the old order is not only an economic failure, it is a spiritual failure. Charlie so what happens to those people who are living in somewhere . What is their future . David i say to this political story, johnston in a steel mill, we have all been to these towns where the mills close and Everybody Knows they are not coming back. There is nothing to do there. Go to pittsburgh. Charlie more people died from opioid abuse than the entire david you go to pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is a great city. You think that pittsburgh is having a revival. Carnegie mellon is having a revival. The steel towns around the river are not having a revival. There is nothing else toyou this having a revival. Carnegie mellon is having a revival. The steel towns around the river are not having a revival. There is nothing else to do. How dto get a revival in those places is a very difficult problem that is so socially deep. It is not simply you can give them jobs. Youg mng men cannot pass in the drug test. You think that pittsburgh is having a revival. Carnegie mellon is having a revival. It is such a deep social crisis and that is why it is a crisis of neighborhood, community and family. It is going to take a different redo theovernment to social fabric. Charlie two of the issues you bring about one is guns. After what happened at a variety of places where guns were used, you assume there would be some action. You argue that what has to people really come to grips with the use of guns. David there has been a lot of actions. 26 26 states have all passed rules loosening them and that is because guns have become a cultural totem. People like me, gun rights advocates say guns are the symbol of my freedom, the symbol of the capacity to defend my family in a dangerous world, a symbol of independence so this is my symbol. Those people over there, they are trying to take them away. It is not really about a gun anymore. Charlie doesnt that come to the question of who defines th d debate . If the debate is up i can keep my guns as an active freedom an act of freedom, that is not easy to give up. The debate has to be larger and of a different kind. David a lot what has happened is our politics has become about our cultural identity. If you want to make progress in any of these fields whether it is this or global warming, get it out of the cultural identity business. The way you do that is you get gun control advocates coming from the same culture as a lot of guncontrol defenders. We are sitting in a building owned by michael bloomberg. He was a big gun control but frankly, it did not help. He spend a lot of money. It did not help the mayor of new york leading this charge. It has to be somebody from alabama. Somebodys whos cultural identity is pure, of one sort and say i am one of you but that is crazy what is happening in the schools and churches and things like that. Charlie the other issue you have spoken to is the issue of sexual harassment. In a very interesting way in terms of defining the three ages of man. David how do we think about sex . I will there was a time, not i realize that time first, you do sex in marriage. Sex is in marriage and it is a sacred thing. Then there was another realm, you only have sex with people you love. That is the final sense of communication over who you want to spend the rest of your life with. Charlie a defining emotional attachment. David and then it has become in some corners, it is what you do for pleasure. If you have been on a College Campus or in new york bar or a club, it is very naked. If you are dancing at 2 00 in the morning and nobody is coming home with you, i will find some of he also because that is what i am here for. It became just a source of pleasure in the third regime. In the fourth regime, it became this weird mixture which is the regime which is the weird make sure of sexuality and power. These two things fused together. The men who do this tend to start young and as we have learned over the past several weeks, this is a lifetime pattern. C. K. , harvey weinstein, whoever a lot of women come out of the woodwork because it is the weird mixture of lust combined with the dominance combined with the inability to see the person you are there with. Me about thek apologies, the first thing they say i had no idea the women were thinking this way. It is an inability to put their mind in the mind of the person you are pushing yourself all over. Humaniort of a moral t blindness. Charlie it is a significant societal change. David there has been a lot of cases at the new republic, there was a case involving this. Someone complained to the editor, a very good guide. Y. He raised a ruckus asomeone comw i hope it will not just be a little ruckus. Be code red, we will not tolerate this. Was note somehow it something people got their hair on fire over. Now it will be something they get their hair on fire. An uncomfortable thing for a lot of progressives is how much did the clinton thing create this environment, the tolerance of bill clinton . Charlie how much do you think . David i think it is had an effect. Nobody was approving of bill clinton in some of the things he was accused of doing, but people were not say it we are drawing the line here. If you dont draw lines in these big cases, then you dont draw lines in the little cases in the workplace. Now we are seeing, we saw republicans tolerating with donald trump was accused of doing. Today, we are seeing this astounding case were republicans in alabama are tolerating what gwen moore is doing what moore is doing, making advances on a 14yearold girl and others. One of the defenses was well, joseph was with mary when mary was a teenager during the arrival. Are you kidding me . That is the argument you are using . It is mindboggling. It is a sign of how partisanship has replaced Everything Else. Arrival. Are you kidding me . Partisanship cant blind you towards morality, truth. Partisanship has become the idol of our time. Charlie this is set often and the thing that shifts america more often than any other thing, for all of its advances and power, is politics in washington. Whether it is gridlock or the partisanship. Advancementsns our forward in science and a whole other range of things we care deeply about. Charlie when you travel around the country, it is not depressing to be in america. David everywhere you meet people are starting Amazing Companies or starting amazing ngos. Charlie and you meet some phenomenal young people. Some remarkable things they have a commitment to. Go to any college in america, it lifts you up so much. Its just like i am not a declinist of america. I think we are in a go to any cn transition. Charlie to . David i dont know but i would say it is deeper than just politics. Our political dysfunction i think really comes about of our social dysfunction. Wewe are not connected to each other and we have lost the skills of connection, intimacy. A lot of inequality and racism in thea lot of inequality and rm in the 50s, but people served in the Work Together and there was a basic level of intimate connection. Families are disconnected. Charlie back in washington, you have the Robert Mueller investigation. David that is the wildcard. What hell not knowing is going to find and how donald trump will react. In a lot of my colleagues in the punditry world, they came to atcon9 and i was defcon3. The crucial difference to me is i asked what did trump do that would make us think this scandal will lead to something that was going to alterthe crucial diffes i asked what the trajectory of this administration . So far, i dont see any evidence that he himself did anything that was going to alter that trajectory. A hired this guy manafort, sleaze ball, got it. He hired flynn. Was their actual collusion, maybe. Until we can get to that point, i am not thinking that is going to cure us i know people who have talked to donald trump, and people say things like, ive done a lot of things, but i didnt do this. David once you get an investigation going, you can go on to other things. The ken starr investigation did not start with an intern. Charlie the question was raised about this investigation, and you hear people looking at it, and in fact, you had a column about it you have in Washington People we respect calling into question the president s fitness for the job. There are people who come out of meetings with him and say, he will start one sentence here, and it will verrer off. Charlie suggesting what . David there is some i dont know what. I dont want to go there, but he certainly speaks differently now than he did in the 1980s. People have done these tv interviews. The old trump spoke in full paragraphs, co. Here, and this guy is not that. As auld be that he decided lot of politicians have decided that it is smart to be less articulate. I saw that with bush. The guy in private was way smarter than he was in public. I dont know what it is, but i do know you never meet anybody who goes into the white house or works in the white house who says, this guy is so impressive. It is odd to be around washington and this white house because usually, the people in the white house, they are in the midst of their biggest fifthgrade crush. There was one interview i was in the middle love during the obama administration, and in the middle of the interview, the president left the back door to get off the helicopter and walk across the lawn, and the guy i was interviewing said, i want to see this. Just tod away from me see obamas back for 20 seconds. The great crush of his life was walking. That is the way white houses are. People love their president. Not this time. Charlie charlie with george w. Bush, people would say, he is smarter than people think. With bill clinton, they would say, this guy is really smart, and with barack obama. You would write about how this was an enormously confident and talented person. David to be fair, i had great access in all of those white one,s, not so much in this which has been liberating in a way. One of the crop shoulds is not ideological bias but friendship. One corruption of journalism is not ideological bias but friendship. A, i dont have any sources. But also, the weird thing about trump the White House Leaks like, crazy. They leak to a lot of New York Times reporters, and it doesnt seem to hurt their access. Charlie the people that have written sharply about the president get phone calls from the president. David if you had asked me five years ago about how we were doing in the media, i would have thought, we are in a longterm decline, but now we are in a moment of both economic and quality of journalism is amazing right now, in part because we have this phenomenal story in front of us, and in part because people want to get the truth. Charlie the story being what is happening in america . David or the world. The change in the world order and Everything Else. Onlinethe times, subscribers are all the way up. The post is doing great. The journal is doing great. I work in the washington bureau, and big stories hit the front pages at night. The reporters are sitting 50 feet away from me, and its very honoring to be in the room with people who are finding the truth about things. Charlie when you look overseas and look at americas role and trump even in china and vietnam about, i, talking believe in America First, and you countries should believe in your Country First you see the recognition of what is happening in china. We are approaching a time in the next 1520 years when china will have the biggest economy in the world. China has authoritarianism. You look at what xi jinping has done, and they have used the idea of corruption not only to clear out corruption but to consolidate power. You see autocrats consolidating power whether its in china or saudi arabia, but you get the clear sense that china is ready to challenge the united states. They talked about a g2, two super powers in the world. Is all extremely dangerous, but i was thinking when i said this cultural moment. What is more free to be myself than America First . Would you go into a friendship and say, im in this for me, and you are in this for you . Would you say that at your company . Its the same in the world. If you say, im in it for America First, and you are in it for yourself first, does that make a stronger world . No. We are better when we cooperate together. Bob kagan and many others have made this point. When you are the top dog , you want multilateral power because it gives you a tool to extend your own power. To where we are all dog eat dog, that is not good for any of us, so what trump embodies in his foreignpolicy is an inherent suspicion of social connection, global or personal. Its an assumption that we are all competing against each other, that we are in a world of and that is his view of race and america. Charlie and its about winning. David you are locked in conflict, and conflict is the essential order. Of course, that is sometimes true, but that doesnt mean it is always true. The belief in the liberal global order was that we wouldnt have to be locked in conflict. Sometimes its arguments, sometimes its competition, but it is communication between human beings where we are not defined by our differences but our common humanity. That is what the liberal order used a believe in, and people like me used to advocate for spreading democracy around the world. Sometimes, we were naive. Iraq was iraq, and it didnt work out, but it was a belief that history is not just an endless war of all against all but a common march towards a common future. Charlie when you look at this Pivotal Moment, what are the choices . Is, imhe big choice going to speak as a Classical Liberal now the People Living in youngstown or wherever, do we say, there is no use dealing with them . Are we going to run them over . The demography is on our side. That would be a mistake that would rip at our society. Say,nk the choice is to one, lets get the people who believe in the liberal order, lets gather together into a bipartisan movement. Two, how can we fix the system that we allowed to get corrupt and bifurcated . How can we repair the social fabric . Is thatdepressing to me hundreds of years ago, americans had a similar problem. Thestrialization tore apart world order. It created all of these injustices, and they created institutions. They created the federal reserve, the fda, the Civil Service to clean up government in cities around the country. They created boy scouts. They created all of these big institutions that transformed america, and we dont seem to be as good at building new institutions. We havent yet developed of the institutional responses to the crisis we are in. Charlie is your sense that you see it in the political world today the kind of leaders who have the capacity to do all the things we had been talking about whod a friend of mine supports republican candidate said, who should i give money to to beat trump . Should it be john kasich, or is there somebody else out there, and i could have some names. Asse, the senator from nebraska, but to me, the work needs to be done beneath politics. Politicians cannot leave out of a void. A lot of work has to be done. This may convict me of being an inside the beltway person, but i didnt know a lot of people in the u. S. Senate, and i would not say the quality of the individual has declined in the 25 years i have been covering this body. I think cory booker, ben sasse, tom cotton, rob portman you can pick any group of them we would all be impressed by them. If you met them outside of politics, you would say, what an impressive human being. Its the fact that they are stuck in this rotten system. Cleaning up the system and breaking the system is more important than finding some magic personality. Charlie when you think about that, donald trump said, im coming to fix the system. Im going to drain the swamp. Im going to take care of the moneyed interests. None of those things happened. When barack obama came to washington, he said, im going to engage in bipartisanship. Im going to try to heal this gridlock. Couldnt do it. David george w. Bush said the exact same thing. Charlie he was interrupted by war, but barack obama had majorities in both congresses. Of a he was in the midst financial crisis and the ,epublican party the way it was and his own personality he wasnt always the most social guy with other politicians. [laughter] ,he other thing that i think looking back on the obama obama bears some responsibility for what came next. You have this guy from harvard law surrounded by guys from yale law, and they created a government that was overly technocratic. One of the things that has to happen is that institutions have to begin sharing power, and whether its my newspaper or any trumphere have to be more people, gun rights people, prolife people in the room. Wide,cial segmentation is and it can only be cured by sharing power, by being in the socialnd a lot of that segmentation, there are cultural site signals we send out that are invisible to us but visible to other people. If you go into a whole foods or trader joes, i feel pretty fine walking around, but for a lot of people who are less part of the cultural, educated elite, there are all these signals being sent. Organic this. Its like, what is this world . They feel uncomfortable. Its very easy to create social distance in ways you are not even aware of. Charlie Hillary Clinton told me in talking about her campaign, and she recognized lots of problems she had with her me, inn she said to fact, the speech she was going to write upon winning the she had a winning speech, not a concession speech was a reaching out to the people she failed to win the support of. Its part of what you were saying. There has to be at least that kind of recognition and not let those People Living somewhere feel like they are isolated or feel like the rest of the world is moving forward. David i would say reaching out is necessary but not sufficient. We have all had this experience in different parts of the country. Im from the New York Times. I like to reach out to you. Screw you i dont want you reaching out to me. [laughter] i totally get that. Race,wer on this is on and its not enough to have the conversation. You also have a common project. It cant just be, you are red, im blue. A has to be, weve got a problem with opioids. I dont care who you are. If you can help me with this problem, we are on board. People always say, we should have a conversation about race, and that seems self absorbed to me. We should get together on transracial lines. Bono is really good in politics, and when you watched him work, he didnt care if you were jesse helms or bill clinton. Anybody that would help him with aids in africa, you are on my team. Charlie it started with debt relief. David he understands his mission, and he is willing to put Everything Else secondarily to that mission to her that is a good way to approach change. There was a guy named mark dunkel meant who says we have three rings of relationships. Inner ring, our family and friends. The outer ring, people we know on facebook. Then theres this little ring, like the pta. You dont know if they are republicans or democrats. You are just there for schools. We are less likely to be working with people who disagree with us on one thing, but we share this other thing. Charlie all the things we have been talking about, what is most likely to emerge as a focus for you . David the book im working on and halfway through, i dont know if it will be called the fourth commandment, but the basic idea is that, in our lives, we make four big commitments, and the success and fulfillment of our lives depends on how we execute those commitments. Spouse and family, vocation, community, and a philosophy or faith. What im trying to figure out for my own self and for others is, how do you construct a life where you are deeply embedded with other people, and out of that, you derive a sense of purpose and meaning in life . Like a lot of people, you get to a certain age, and you achieve a certain amount of success, and its not fulfilling. You want to know, how do i live life to the moral fullest . Like a lot of people, i am much more articulate about politics ut moral elevation. My books are explorations of problems i am facing. I have this theory that a lot of us in our lives for viewers over 60, i hope this will resonate we have Two Mountains in our lives. When you are young, you are like, im going to become a good journalist. Im going to become a good teacher. The first one is about establishing your identity, making your mark in the world, and you either achieve that mountain or get knocked off, or Something Else happens, the death of a child or Something Else. To go off into the valley, and from the valley, you get more clarity. The Second Mountain is less about building things up and more about pouring things forth. Its more about elevation and giving to others. Its less external, more internal. Who, people around sometimes, they have given the second half of their lives to charity, or they are tibetan monks, and they have gone back into school. Or they have stayed in the same job, but its no longer about building up their ego but transcending their ego. I see all sorts of people who are on their Second Mountain, and its one of the most beautiful things in our society. People at the age of 65 are no longer old. Weve suddenly got a lot more years out of the tail end of that life to take the big risk and do the big thing. I meet so many people on that Second Mountain. Charlie charlie i remember one was, when you talked about looking at your resume and your eulogy think about your eulogy. The other thing you wrote about was this idea that we are all when hewho am i not go to think less about introspection but look at some larger purpose. How am i part of something that is much bigger than who i am . David who am i is the wron g question. We have a whole culture that is based on this individualism of the past 50 years, which says, be free. Value your time. You do you. March to the beat of your own drum. Charlie it came from the 1960s. David and the reagan era, as well. Those are all the wrong places to look, in my view. You dont want to declare your independence. You want to create intimacy. How you take the courage to be intimate, especially middleaged white guys who are averse to expressing their emotions, how you have the courage to be open to those experiences and create intimate bonds, and to me, my , first,ut commitments you fall in love with science, economics, but then there can be moments, any vocation or marriage, where it is going to stink. You have to fall in love with something and build a structure for whenor around it the love fails. You go through long periods where you think, its my identity. I cannot do this. Time, you come out the other end of the bad moments, and you find it more fulfilling than ever. Did you find this within deep questions within your own mind, from what you read, what you saw, or did you find this from personal experience, when you looked at your own life . David im not that smart. I find it by looking at people who have done it well and have written about it well. Theres a guy in new mexico called richard rohrer, a fantastic monk franciscan monk, who writes about this beautifully. About some of the first and second halves of life. Charlie the mountains. Onid he has versions based carl young, mixed with saint augustine. The second half is just about agape, selfless love. You see people who radiate joyousness. Charlie they have a special grace. David you know, the dalai lama is like this. Ive been reading a lot of accounts of joy. We all want to radiate not just happiness, but a deep radiance, and we all know people like that. It has nothing to do with how much money they make. I think they have achieved they are not worried about their ego. Whatever they have achieved is on the far side of selfless service. There is some sort of peace. Believe me, i do not have this myself, but i see it in others. Theres one passage. He was marching in somewhat with dr. King, and he said, marching across that bridge a moment of great peril was the most transcendent experience ive ever had. There was a feeling of oneness, a feeling of deep intimacy with one another, a feeling that we could make a change, and he talked about this swelling out. Often, when you talk about people writing about their moments of great joyousness, often, it is collective moments. They are doing something together. Charlie breathing in unison. David that is a very good way to put it. I saw this movie recently hidden figures, and you wouldnt say it was a happy period because there was a lot of struggle, but they were involved in something important and doing it together. They had intensity. I think kierkegaard or somebody said, happiness is moving with your whole will in one direction wholeheartedly. If we can all be seized by something that can wholeheartedly move us in one direction, that is the magic. Charlie and will be the greatest adventure for ourselves. David the hard part is being seized. The people who achieve that, they are grabbed by something. They are responding to something. Position where you can respond to a call outside of yourself, you have to be open and humble and be patient for that call. Charlie david, thank you. Its a pleasure to have you here. David brooks, thank you for joining us. We will see you next time. And it is 8 00 a. M. In hong kong. Bloombergsfrom asian headquarters. The top stories this tuesday. A mix today ahead of a deluge of news from china. It was a sluggish day on wall street. Investors awaiting inflation numbers. And tax reform. Betty i am betty liu. Homedent trump will head with few concrete promises