Transcripts For CNNW Anderson 20240704

On felony charge, this time for alleged crimes against democracy itself. Good evening in new york. Im Anderson Cooper and jake tapper in washington. And anderson, unlike the first two arraignments in new york and florida, this one was held within view of the crime scene. The u. S. Capitol at a federal courthouse where dozens of members of the violent mob that he incited, he incited hundreds really have already been convicted and sent to prison. The actual proceedings which were led by a Magistrate Judge took 27 minutes. The four counts connected though his attempt to overturn the election that he lost. His next Court Date Set for the 28th in front of the trial judge, tanya chutkan, who is expected to set a trial date. Now a short time later after the sentencing on the tarmac at Reagan National airport, holding an umbrella handed to him by his bodyman and documents case codefendant walt nauta, the he made the following remarks about the nations capitol. This is a very sad day for america, and it was also very sad driving through washington, d. C. And seeing the filth and the decay and all of the broken buildings and walls and the graffiti. This is not the place that i left. Its a very sad thing to see it. When you look at whats happening, this is a persecution of a political opponent. This was never supposed to happen in america. This is the persecution of the person thats leading by very, very substantial numbers in the republican primary, and leading by biden by a lot. So if you cant beat him, you persecute him, or you prosecute him. We cant let this happen in america. Thank you very much, everybody. An interesting idea that there was no graffiti or trash on the ground in washington, d. C. Until after he moved out of the town, anderson. But as you pointed out earlier, when trump left washington on january 20th, 2021, the district was under heightened security out of concern that the inauguration might prompt a repeat of the january 6th riot. Jake, the former president is now back at his golf club in new jersey. Cnns Kaitlan Collins is outside the federal courthouse in washington where she has been covering events all day. Kaitlan, what are you hearing from the president s former aides and allies about how today went . Anderson, it was pretty much as they expected when it came to the actual proceeding, the nuts and bolts of what it looked like once the former president was here and the courthouse behind me. Of course, they expected him to plead not guilty. He actually did it himself here, which is not what he did in miami. Instead, his attorney did it then. He himself said the words when he was in this courthouse behind me. And for the president himself i am told, he is obviously not happy that he had to come here to washington today as he made clear in his remarks there and subsequent remarks that hes made online about the city. But its the idea that he prefer not to have to show up in person. Another reminder of his growing legal troubles that he is facing. He is talking online about how theyre benefitting him politically. But they are weighing on him, anderson. And he had this dejected look on his face as he got out of the motorcade to go back to the airport, to go back to new jersey. And i should note that those remarks you heard there earlier, that was all he said. He did not take any questions from reporters, and thats despite the fact that they have been planning for him to take a few questions from reporters when he got to the airport. Its unclear what changed that plan, but certainly something did. The prosecution wants a speedy trial. It certainly seems clear the defense wants to delay as much as possible, no . Absolutely. There is no doubt they want to delay it. We watched it happen in the documents case in florida. The difference, though, is there is no codefendant to help drag it out. He had a little help with walt nauta getting a Florida Attorney in florida and having delay that by several weeks. Here it just him. He is the only defendant. Those coconspirators who were listed in the indictment have not themselves been indicted. This was probably the most abnormal part of the entire day. The one part that wasnt expected was there was a bit of a dispute between his attorney and the judge talking about the timeline for this trial. She was talking about at the next appearance in just several weeks from now, potentially setting a trial date then. And his attorney was making the point that they wanted to make sure they had enough time. Thats john lauro, who has argued to me that he believes it could take nine months to a year to try this case. Of course this is all going to be up to the judge here who has a very quick timeline typically for these kinds of things. We should point out the former president has already been criticizing the former judge on truth social. There anything about his lawyers will ask him to cut that out, or even if he did, would that matter . It certainly wouldnt matter. He has had attorneys before who have asked him not to attack prosecutors or judges. He is attacking jack smith who he sat 15 feet away from today. I talk to people in his orbit, people who were on liz team, people on this his legal team. Their client is donald trump and there is not really a way to stop him from posting online. You heard the judge today saying not to threaten any witnesses. Pretty standard language, but making sure that was something that was said while the former president was in her courtroom. As we know, there is a massive list of witnesses in this case, including people who worked for him, people who were the closest to him, and people who still work for him, anderson. Kaitlan, thank you so much. Jake . Anderson, thank you so much. With me here tonight cnns senior Law Enforcement analyst andrew mccabe, cnn chief legal analyst laura coates, cnn chief political analyst gloria borger, and special correspondent jamie gangel. Lets start with something i thought was very interesting in the proceedings today, laura coates, which is the judge not only recited the four charges laid out in the indictment, but also the maximum sentence potentially for anybody found guilty, convicted of them. This includes conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, which is a maximum of 20 years, obstruction of an official proceeding, maximum of 20 years, conspiracy against rights, meaning his ability or his attempt to take away the Voting Rights or the rights of individuals to have their votes counted. Thats ten years. Thats a maxf 50 years of those k three charges out of four. Is that normal to give all the charges and the maximum sentence . It is standard to provide the defendant with as much notice as possible so they know the full cope of their actual charges. Note of course also she asked him his age. He stated it. If you were to do arithmetic on that, if the maximum were in fact imposed, its really a Life Sentence for this particular individual. 77. 77 years old. But i will say that it is highly unlikely that any of those maximums would normally be reached, although this is a judge who in the course of trying and overseeing Different Cases in the january 6th court proceedings, she has gone above even what prosecutors have recommended. She has been very clear and firm about the gravity assigned to these charges, and these are very serious charges against anyone let alone a former president of the United States. So by providing that notice its a kind of due process. And by the way, its shocking to many people to hear that, but this is the experience of most defendants in courtrooms where they are now confronted with the reality that they are now on the other side of United States versus. And andrew mccabe, there has been a lot of talk today about how donald trump is treated compared to others in the justice system. In other ways he is getting benefits of the doubt that other defendants would not, right . First of all, he was released just on his own recognizance, right . Thats absolutely right. So in the significant ways the fact that he has to appear here in d. C. To be arraign and be informed of these charges and to be processed. All those things are normal procedure that every defendant in a federal criminal matter has to do. But as you mentioned, there are some notable differences here. He has not been subjected to a mug shot in either this case or the case in southern florida, as far as we know. Its questionable as to whether or not he was fingerprinted today as part of his processing. There is an argument to be made well, he is so wellknown, its not necessary to have those identifying that identifying information. But released on your own recognizance when you have the ability to hop on your own 757 at any minute and go pretty much anywhere in the globe you want the go, thats a pretty big extension of courtesy or liberty to this defendant. So no matter how hard the prosecutors in the system try to conform this prosecution to the standard route that all criminal defendants in the Federal System Go through, i think its always going to be slightly different because he is a former president. And gloria, one of the things thats interesting is so theyre pushing forward on this First Amendment defense. Who knows what theyre actually going to do, the Trump Lawyers when it comes down a courtroom. But in the court of public opinion, theyve been talking about a First Amendment defense. Theyre prosecuting him for things he said, and you cant do that, his First Amendment rights. Here is what trumps then Attorney General bill barr, not on january 6th, but in the days and weeks leading up to january 6th told Kaitlan Collins last night when asked about this First Amendment defense. As the indictment says, theyre not attacking his First Amendment right. He can say whatever he wants. He can even lie. He can even tell people that the election was stolen when he knew better. But that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. All conspiracies involve speech. And all fraud involve speech. So, you know, free speech doesnt give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy. Well, there goes that theory. He ripped that apart. Look, he said donald trump can lie. We know that donald trump lies. He can lie all he wants. He can lie to the press. He can lie to his friends. He can lie to people who work for him. But he said thats kind of beside the point. Thats almost irrelevant. I mean, this was, according to the former Attorney General, and he seemed to believe it was laid out pretty clearly, a conspiracy. And if you want to have a conspiracy, you have to conspire with other people. And we all know from looking at this at this indictment pretty closely that there is a big blank here for unindicted coconspirators. Lets hoyld it up so people can see. But you scribbled on here. I did. There is a lot of blank space if you want to put in some new defendants. If they do want to put in coconspirators, well, theyve got theyve got the room for it. What they dont have is the time, and they want to move this case very, very quickly, unlike the president s attorneys who want to delay, delay, delay. But there is an argument that if they had put down all those other rators on a list that it really would have delayed what they want to do which is talk about donald trump. Can i just add one quick thing. That was bill barr, Donald Trumps former Attorney General, who is not only a conservative republican, but he was hardline. He supported donald trump in every way that he could over and over. He was aggressive. During the first during the mueller. The first impeachment, during the mueller investigation, yeah. He only left in december at the end of the term, by the way. For him in effect to obliterate the defense that trumps lawyers are putting out there now, it just it says everything. There is Something Else he said in that interview. He said kaitlan asked about whether i think donald trump could take the stand or bill barr brought up, if he would take the stand. And bill barr made very clear that would not be a good idea. Turkey, have donald trump take the stand . Right. What were seeing here is whether its donald trump or his lawyers or republican elected officials, this is the political court. This is speaking to their base, to their supporters. This is not whats going to go on in the courtroom. But there is a reason for that, right . Right. Because Donald Trumps first primary and most important Legal Defense is to win the presidency in 2024. Thats his Hail Mary Pass for getting out from under both of these federal cases, because if he wins the presidency, he knows both cases go away overnight, if they havent already concluded. Important word, though, federal cases. Because there are other cases and matters including manhattan. There is the decisions made by Fani Willis Out of the Fulton County d. A. s office what they will do, and that would not essentially immunize him from that. But were talking about political speech. As a talk point . This actually means something in the law. It doesnt mean that any time a politician speaks, it becomes political speech that no one can touch. There are some very clear reasons as to why we want to protect and be very mindful of protecting political speech. We do not want people thrown into jail because they went against the king. We remember those well, i dont personally remember, but we remember reading about when history i do. No you do not, jamie gangel. Thinking about all these aspects of it. Notion of political speech essentially means you can certainly address your grievances. You can criticize the government. Youre entitled to your opinion, but not the facts that are converted into action that actually creates criminal liability. Just to point out what bill barr was talking about, there is a point 3 in the indictment where and remember, this is an indictment, this is from a grand jury, right. Thats right. So this is from american citizens, and they give this to the Special Counsel. Im just going to read. The defendant, donald trump, had a right like every american to speak publicly about the election and even to claim falsely that there had been determine tif fraud during the election and he had run. He is also allowed to challenge the results such as seeking recounts or audit of the popular vote in states or fighting lawsuits challenging ballot procedures. Indeed, in many cases the defendant did pursue these methods. His efforts to outcome the outcome in any states were uniformly unsuccessful. So theyre saying, they say right here is the third point, hes not in trouble for lying. Thats right. Lets be very clear about this. The federal Criminal Code has many statutes that Criminal Ize Speech thats not protected. Every fraud requires a statement as part of the crime. So if i call you up, jamie, and lie to you on the phone for the purpose of stealing money from you, thats wire fraud. My lies to you are not protected speech. If i threaten you, gloria, and in return to force you to coerce you to give me something of value, thats extortion. My threat to you is protected speech. Thats not the case theyre making in this indictment. His speech not protected because it is part of a crime. Just to put a period on it, there is a different channel, fox, 787. 5 million they paid to dominion Electronic Voting Systems because of the defamation. Thats right. The defamation that they platformed and made themselves. Some of their hosts against that company. Free speech is a right that we enjoy in this country. It is not an unlimited right, anderson. For air time, House Speaker Kevin Mccarthy spoke on the subject. He falsely equated President Trumps acts after the 2020 election with the losing campaigns of Hillary Clinton and al gore. Take a look. I can say the same thing that Hillary Clinton says about her election that she lost. I can say the same thing about the dnc who said it about the 2016 race. I can say the same thing about those in the Democratic Party from the leadership on down about george bush not winning, that al gore did. But were any of them prosecuted . Were any of them put in jail . When Hillary Clinton said it, Nothing Happened to her. When they said it in georgias election, Nothing Happened to them either. You know what . When the dnc said it . Nothing happened to them either. Speaker mccarthy just a short time ago. Here with me van jones, alyssa farah griffin, Adam Kinzinger and ellie hone nice and karen freedman. What did you think . Oh, my gosh. Watching that, i cant do it. I mean, he knows he knows better. He knows thats complete garbage. And those are just red meat Talking Points thrown to. Even to the base would look at that and say thats not the same thing. It doesnt make an ounce of sense. You can see how angry hes been getting recently when he speaks, kevin. And its very rare for him to get angry when he speak, but he has been doing it more and more. And my guess is this is tearing him up inside. He is mad, not at the people asking the question, he is mad that he has to come up with that lie and stand there and say that. I think marco rubio sweeted even yesterday, because some actors did a video where they were asking the electors in 2016 to vote for Hillary Clinton instead of donald trump. He was equating that. Thats very different. Its okay to ask electors to switch their votes. Its not okay to create fake elects or the and attack the capital to get your way. Youre not against it Kevin Mccarthy believes watching that. We saw similar Talking Points. Stefanik put out a stronglyworded statement. Theyre using all the same term knowledge we would expect, witch hunt. This has absolutely nothing to do with hunter biden. Im old enough to remember when Kevin Mccarthy had said, and we have audio of him saying this i am done with this guy, talking about donald trump. He bears responsibility for this day. But now thats just out the window. I dont know how republican supporters of someone like mccarthy see those two things and kind of like put them together, because its just a direct contradiction, and its so shallow. And yet, david urban, this is repeated time and time again. The rnc, i know congressman ken zinger is losing his mind over here. I am. To the average american, distinction without difference in these previous videos. If you watch the martin sheen video, one hundred celebrities kind of plea to having faithless elects or the, electoral college. If you watch the rnc has a video out about a half hour from 2016 on, that period of saying trump is not a legitimate president. We need to resist. All the resistance movement, and all those things and contesting his presidency from the outset. The articles in the Washington Post saying trump needs to be impeached today, and on and on and on. Thats whats going to be fed. Im not saying its correct. Thats whats being fed to americans. And that, i know our legal experts think this is a well crafted legal document. Im sure it is. But to most americans, its white noise. I disagree that the most americans dont remember that the capitol was storm and that false electors were put up. I agree. The january 6th part, i dont disagree with. But there is a disconnect. This is not a january 6th indictment if you read it. This is about a fake elector scheme. This is about storming the castle. No it isnt. Theyre going to throw the issue not just the speech is the fact that they tried to overturn it. Congressman kinzinger said he would like to see an indictment. I would. Theyre going to throw tons of garbage out there. The point is its not going to confusion people. Thats the polypoint. The problem is leaders like Kevin Mccarthy have to be the ones to go out and show the difference and tell the truth. We are letting leaders off the hook because were like oh, well, no. Dont be in leadership if youre unwilling to say the hard truth to people. In terms of the legal battle ahead, obviously the judge would like a speedy trial. The government would like a speedy trial. The judge also used to be a defense lawyer, so looks after the rights of the defendants as well. How speedy a trial can there be . And exactly who decides that . So the judge said you have a week to tell me, mr. Prosecutor, how much time you think this trial will take, and then the defense has a week after that to tell them. And she is going to take that information and use that to build a trial date. Now i know one of the Defense Attorneys john lauro has been saying this trial could take nine months to a year. Lets think about it for a minute. The prosecution has the burden of proof. The prosecution is the whole show. They put the whole trial on. The defendant doesnt have to do a thing. They dont have to open. They dont have to crossexamine a witness. They dont have to put on a defense at all. So really question for a judge is how much time, government, your case going to take . And thats really the critical part. And you ask the defense, what defense are you going to put on, if any . It seems unlikely they would put on the former president. Exactly. Lets sajak smith says this is a six or a eightweek trial, which i think is probably right around what he will say, the Defense Attorney is going to say so i have another six months of evidence im going to put on . What is he going to put on . At a certain point, the judge will push back on that and say lets be realistic. You dont have to commit to exactly what youre going to do. But if you were to put on a defense, how much time do you think it would be . And i think the judge can do a fairly educated guess of how much time this would take and how long it would be. Same thing with the pretrial motions. We all know, elie and i could sit here right now and tell you what the pretrial motions would be. Its obvious what the arguments are going to be, First Amendment, free speech, advice of council is another one. I want a change of venue because i cant get a fair trial here, judge, i want you recused because youre biased and you said the thing about president s arent kings. Hell make so many different arguments that are just obvious. And the judge will give him enough time to make those arguments. You know, you can do that in two months, for example. And the government could probably respond in another two months. Jack smith is going to give over all the discovery. There is no reason this case cant go in january, february, and be done before the first vote is cast, even in early voting. The judges role at a trial sort of like a ringmaster. Youre trying to wrangle aggressive, opinionated parties that have not just their own agendas, but competing agendas. And one of the challenges for a judge is how do you keep control of your trial. Ive had judges who cannot control their courtroom and let Defense Lawyers sometimes prosecutors run roughshod. Its a nightmare. I have had other judges who have been strict but fair and said were going get this done in x amount of time. Im going to give you one week two, weeks, two hours for closing arguments,ing not eight hours. A lot is going to rely on the hands of judge chutkan. By all indications, she is a firm, tough in control judge. Ive talked to people no w. H. O. Have been in front of her. She is a no nonsense no bs judge. She knows were all watching. I look for her to push the pace here. Im still reflecting on my colleagues here and the passion over there. This is going to require for us to get through this next 18 months is going to require us doing something that were just not that good at as a country, which is nuance. It is in fact true that were progressives working to delegitimize trump from the very beginning. It is true. And they were not prosecuted that is true. And there were conservatives working to delegitimize obama from the beginning, including donald trump, who said he didnt have a birth certificate. And they werent prosecuted either. It turns out there is a lot of speech thats not prosecuted. But what you wont be able to show is a democratic president sitting in the oval office trying to hold on to power in the way that dald trump did, or frankly, a republican president , or frankly any president in the history of the country. And thats the truth. And so the problem is, to your point, adam, there is going to be a lot of stuff thrown out there, online, on social media, et cetera. Were going to have to sit here and look at it. Two things can be true. Yes. A lot of horrible stuff was said about donald trump. Also a lot of horrible things being said about joe biden right now. Nobody is going to jail for it. There is one person being charged in this country, and it is the one person who has done something that no president has ever done, and thats donald trump. Anderson, a quick question to the lawyers here. How much discovery is too much discovery . Thats what i hear from the trump folks. This is great for us. Now we get to open the pandoras box of Election Fraud and america will see what weve been saying the whole time. Right . Thats what youve seen and youve heard. And i suspect if the judge allows extensive discovery, the republicans will say ahha, there it is. Theyre not alogging us to show america what is going on. Discovery is everything. As a prosecutor, you have to turn over essentially everything you to the defendant. But i think the question youre raising is a really good one. How much leeway will the judge give the defense . Lets say the defense says we want to prove that the elect was stolen in some of these seven states. The judge allow them to go down that road, which would vastly expand this trial . They could say we want to go to each of these seven states. Exactly. And its within the judges purview to say no, i find thats not a valid defense. Ive found youve not given me at least a nugget of information that i can work with. Big ruling. Youre exactly right. Given the fact that there have been dozens of Court Battles about this by the former president s attorneys and allies. Already. None of which really have gone in their favor. More than 60. Does that make it easier for the judge to decline their efforts . I think she can look at that. She has to consider this. Each one was on its own procedural fight. I guarantee prosecutors are going to remind the judge. Hey, they tried this 60 times. They got nowhere. If the judge allows this, this thing is going to spiral way out of control. For that reason i dont think the judge will allow it. If She Disallows it, be prepared. The other side is going to say a aha, theyre covering up. It is in the indictment. Jack smith describes many pages painstaking detail of what he did to try and steal the election. There is going to be little mini trials within this trial about each of them. But i think its okay, and you can still do it in a way that i think is not going to drag this out forever. And a point i think you guys were making is the charge thats not in here is either the inside rekd Insurrection Act or the seditious conspiracy. That really relates to the violence on january 6th. There are a lot of lawyer whs think it should not have been charged and jack smith did the right thing by doing doing it. And there are some people who think he could have charged it because that would take the First Amendment argument off the table. And that really is what this is about. Its about the violent overthrow, trying to stop the election with violence. And it wasnt charged there. And i do think i think legally jack smith was right because tying him to say that he was in a conspiracy with Stewart Rhodes and the oath keepers, et cetera, i think that would be hard to prove that yes, go be violent. But at the same time, i do think it is it does sort of ask that question about well, why wasnt he charged with that on january 6th. Were going the take a quick break. Coming up next, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales who served in the george bush administration, his take on the case ahead. And later, congresswoman zoe lofgren Who Servinged On The January 6th Committee which blazed a trail for the Special Counsel to follow. Hey bud. Wow. Whats all this . 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Weve been talking some length already about what the former president s Legal Defense might be based on what he and his attorneys have been saying. One hinges on whether or not he believed he lost the election. Here is what his former Attorney General william barr had to say when our own Kaitlan Collins asked him about that last night. Do you think he knew that he lost the election . Do i personally believe that . At first i wasnt sure, but i have come to believe that he knew well he had lost the election. Now what i think is important is the government has assumed the burden of proving that. Which is a high bar, of course. Its a high bar. Thou that leads me to believe were only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this. You think jack smith has more . Oh, yes. You can call that the George Costanza defense. Its not a lie if you believe it. In a moment, anderson is going to be joined by former george w. Bush Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. But first, as we mentioned, the former president is back at bedminster in new jersey this evening. Cnns Alayna Treene is nearby and is going to join us. What do we know about mr. Trumps mood this evening . Well, jake, i think you could kind of see it clearly today playing out. He was somber in court. Our great reporters inside the courtroom said he appeared glum. Heed a his arms crossed over him. And that lines up with what im hearing from Donald Trumps advisers. Ive been speaking with him the last couple of days now, and they tell me he is very concern about these charges, and privately he has been really frustrated. He is frustrated about not only what this means for him personally and politically, but also what it means for his legacy. I know from covering donald trump for several years now, he thinks about that a lot, and that has been weighing on him today. Ill also point out publicly, youre still going to see the Defiant Donald Trump that he likes to show voters and show viewers, that even when he was speaking with reporters after his appearance later tonight, he still you could tell wasnt using the bravado that he normally does. But on truth social and in his posts, he is using that Defiant Redrick that he often tries to portray when he talking about these different charges. But his team on the other hand, theyre angry too. They are fired up about these charges. But theyre also trying to maximize the political benefit of them. We know from the past two indictment, and this one included, the third one he now face, he is seeing a boost in the polls, and he knows he can fund raise off them. Theyre ramping up their fundraising appeal, reaching out to donor, and trying to drum up support from Donald Trumps base. Jake . We should clarify. He is seeing a boost in the polls of republican voters. He is not seeing a boost in the poll of overall voters, particularly independent voters whose votes he will need if he actually buzz diagnostic the nominee. Alayna treene, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Anderson . Joining us now is Alberto Gonzales who served as Attorney General during the george w. Bush administration. Based on allegations were having trouble with his audio. Lets go back to jake. Jake, as we have been discussing, key for prosecutors will be Donald Trumps statements and actions related to the fake electors plot in seven states. One of the start, the wolverine straight have already charged 16 individuals in that election, the fake electors. And today we learned they charged a third person in a separate part of the investigation. Not the same one about fake electors but a separate conspiracy to seize and access Voting Machines in michigan after the 2020 election. Im joined now by Michigan Attorney general dana nessel. Attorney general nessel, so first of all, we should note that because one of the three individuals charged with trying to seize and access Voting Machines was your opponent for Attorney General in 2022, you have recused yourself from that investigation. And i just want the note that for our viewers. But i do want to ask you just about the contours of that investigation since the special prosecutor dj hilson has been out there talking about this case. Can you give us any idea, even though again i know you have recused yourself. But just as the michigander i have on the show this evening, what are they charged why were they trying to access Voting Machines . Well, first of all, let me say that there are a lot of parallels that i see between donald trump and his activities and the things that weve seen in regard to this recent indictment against him, and then what his soldiers were doing on the ground in the seven targeted states, including, of course, michigan. Now the allegations involving the former republican nominee for Attorney General and one of Trumps Campaign attorneys, as well as a former republican State Representative really involve illegal access to tabulators, and then, you know, an effort to tamper with those tabulators, run tests on those tabulators, and ultimately, damaging those tabulators so that they can be replaced. Those are essentially the allegations. But what was interesting, of course, in the case involving my former opponent was really the timing, because it reminds me a lot of donald trump, you know. You look at the timing of when these alleged acts occur, and shortly thereafter, he makes an announcement. He is running to be the Michigan Attorney general. Therefore meaning that i cant continue my investigation because now by virtue of that, im running against my opponent. So it has to go to a special prosecutor. Interesting. You can, however, talk about i should also just note that this idea about seizing the Voting Machines after the election is one that donald trump was talking about in the oval office when he was talking about potentially declaring martial law and seizing Voting Machines in various Battleground States. Its interesting that as you note, his foot soldiers were trying to do the same thing. This fake elector scheme, which you are as Attorney General completely involved in, and you announced charges against these 16 individuals in july. They too were part of this alleged conspiracy, right . So what was the plan there . And were they aware of the fact that they were going toe be put forward as fake elects or the, even if trump did not prevail in court cases in michigan . Well, while i cant get into all the facts and all the details this case that is now spending, what i will say is this. Firstly, very clearly, this was a coordinated campaign that started at the top, you know, started with the former president of the United States, and then went into all of these other states. Additionally, just as weve seen in this criminal indictment, what we saw in michigan was honestly overwhelming evidence of, you know, a large number of crimes. And what i said when i announced the charges a few weeks ago, what ill say again now is this when you hear donald trump talking about these charges being political in nature, heres what i would say. The most political thing that jack smith could possibly do in the face of overwhelming evidence of guilt would be not to charge donald trump at all. That in itself would be something that would be political. When you have somebody who is clearly guilty of a number of federal offenses, what you do is you charge them. And the only reason that you would not charge them is because you were making a political calculation. Yeah. We should note that as one of the panelists on andersons panel said just a few moments ago, you know, the indictment. And every american should read it for themselves go state by state on these Battleground States and talks about Donald Trumps efforts to steal joe bidens victory in those states. Michigan is stage 17 through 19. I know you disagree with the michigan House Speaker and the Michigan Senate Majority Leader on probably 95 of the issues, but do you give them credit for standing up against what must have been a very Intense Pressure Campaign from donald trump to flip the results and, you know, undermine the election there . I realize were in low Bar Territory when we praise people for not breaking the law and doing their jobs, but you at least give them credit for that . Do i give credit for not breaking the law and abiding by the norms of our society and the constitution, yes. I mean obviously, i applaud them for Standing Firm and not trying to intervene in any way that i knew would be illegal. And thats frankly, you know, why we still have a democracy now, right . In 2023 is because there were people like the Senate Majority leader in michigan, like the House Speaker in michigan in 2020 that stood firm and did the right thing. Despite this enormous pressure campaign. But, again, its not just that the top two republicans in the state of michigan that were subjected to this. People forget, you know, donald trump actually called up members of the wayne county board of canvassers. Can you imagine being one of those individuals and youre involved in this very ministerial process of a County Board Canvas to approve the election, and you get a call on your way home from the president of the United States of america. Its something. Telling you to go back and to switch your vote on, you know, the certification for your county. I mean, is there anyone in the state of michigan or any of these seven states that donald trump didnt call to try to pressure them into doing something very illegal . Thats really thats the better question i think at this point. Yeah. Attorney general dana nessel, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Going to throw it back to anderson. We think we have fixed our technical difficulties with former Attorney General al berpt toe g Alberto Gonzales. Based about the problems laid out in the allegations, would you have brought this case . Yes, i would have brought this case. Let me remind the viewers, though, in this country that President Trump is presumed innocent until Proven Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And so, you know, presenting the indictment is so much easier than getting a conviction in a complicated case. In a high profile case. So were a long way from a situation where President Trump has violated the law. He is presumed innocent. And i dont want to get away from that. It is true, the story laid out by the Special Counsel is very thorough, and i think he has done a good job in streamlining the charges so that hopefully a trial can occur from my own perspective. I think it is important for the trial to occur before the election. The American People deserve to know before they cast a ballot, assuming that donald trump is the republican nominee, they need to know whether or not his conduct here, whatever it was, was criminal or not. Do you think it will happen before the election . Well, i think its certainly possible. You dont have classified information you have to deal with. Youve only got one defendant currently. And so i think its certainly possible. Youve got a judge that has a reputation of moving things forward. I think she appreciates the importance of protecting the rights of the accused in this case, but also understanding that the american for the American People, this is an important case. And its important for them to know whether or not one of the candidates for president , assuming again that donald trump wins a nomination, whether or not this person committed federal crimes. And so, yes, i think it is possible. A lot will depend, of course, with respect to what Donald Trumps lawyers were able to do in terms of slowing down the process. But i think there will be every effort by this judge to make sure that happens. I think thats important for the American People. Weve been hearing from the former president s attorneys First Amendment arguments, advice of council arguments. Do either of those are either of those you think applicable here . Well, i dont think theyre going carry the day. I think that they resonate with the average voter, no question about it. It seems to make sense that, hey, people say things all the time in the campaign. Oftentimes not oftentimes, but sometimes what they say is not true. And theyre not prosecuted. But i do think it is true that the First Amendment does not protect all speech. And it does not protect conspiracy to engage in fraud. And then at the end of the day, you know, how is donald trump going to respond to that, if he does . Im assuming he wont take the stand. So its really puzzling to me how thats going play out with respect to the defense. Of course, the burden is on the prosecution. There is no question about that. But i think ujack smith has done a pretty good job laying out the evidence here. I think as Attorney General barr indicated, i think there is more that jack smith has thats going to be presented at trial. And the question is how what is the defense going to be . Donald trump it seems to me will be the most the best witness in his defense. But are you really going to put him on the stand . I wouldnt put him on the stand. There is a lot of Unanswered Questions here. But i guess the short answer to your question is i think this is a strong case. But its not going to be a slamdunk by any stretch of the imagination. Youve got a good story here. Weve got a strong prosecutor. But President Trumps going have good reputation. See what happens. Just to be clear. You were saying President Trump would be the best witness in his own defense theoretically, but the fact that he is donald trump and a terrible witness, hes not going to testify . I think there is going to be so much concern that he is going to commit perjury, for example, or hell Say Something that is not in his best interest. Just based upon the evidence and based on what i heard comments from his own Attorney General. That to me carries the most weight. Ive been asked by others do you believe that he believed that the election was stolen, that there was fraud. And, you know, i dont know the man. I wasnt his lawyer. But when bill barr, his lawyer, the Attorney General says that he believes that donald trump knew the election had been lost, i give that a great deal of weight. Justice gonzalez, thank you f for being with us. Thank you. Congresswoman zoe lofgren of california has called the former president s behavior, quote, criminal and says it must be addressed by a jury. Woman why did we choose safelite . We were loading our suv when. Crack safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when theyd arrive with a replacement we could trust. Thats service the way we want it. Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. When moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis takes you off course. Put it in check with rinvoq, a oncedaily pill. When i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid Symptom Relief and helped Leave Bathroom urgency behind. Check. When uc tried to slow me down. I got lasting, steroidfree remission with rinvoq. Check. 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Much of the case follows directly in the same footsteps of the panels 18 month investigation. Lets go back out to Caitlin Collins who is outside of the federal court right now. We have been outside a federal courthouse since earlier today. I am joined by a member of this committee congressman zille alterman. They clearly laid a roadmap. They pledge to these charges. It is hard to be joyful in a former president is elected. There is a sense of satisfaction with the hard work that we put in and the evidence that we uncovered. It really provides a roadmap for the Department Of Justice to continue to bring justice to this case and charge the ex president with the crimes that we say he committed. It will be for the good of the country. One of the things is what there able to get their hands on compared to Congressional Committee subpoenas. We surprise when you heard that the former Vice President had taken these contemporaneous notes . Did you have any idea about that when you custody contested your own investigation . I dont think the investigative staff did either. We did interview his counsel and chief of staff. He declined the subpoena so there are things that we did not know. What i was struck by was in the indictment he reports that donald trump told him he was too honest. And that tells me a few things. First of all the president knew that he was being dishonest and that pants refused to violate his oath. Im sure the contemporaneous notes will have a lot of information that will be of value and will augment what the committee was able to find out. One person that you spoke to was the former Attorney General bill barr. When i talked to him last night i asked if he thought whether not trump knew he lost the election and this is what he had to say. I personally believe that . At first i was unsure. But i have now come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election. How important do you believe statements like that from people who were around him in those final days will be to the case that they are bringing . I think i agree with the Attorney General but his opinion is not evidence in a court of law. There is however ample evidence to prove that the then president did know he had lost. I will also say that he did lie to members of congress in the senate urging them to reject the electoral vote saying that there was states that wanted electors returned. He knew that that was false. He had tried to get the states to rejected and failed. It is not simply that he knew he lost the election but he knew that they were not asking for electors back. The entire thing was a fraud on the United States. One thing that bill barr would not say is whether not he spoke to jack smith. As someone who investigated this do you think this is someone you would assume he would wants to talk to . It is safe to assume so. There were quite a few situations that he was able to observe that would be pertinent to the space. I do imagine that he has been witness and i also imagine since they were not coconspirators that mark meadows may also have been testifying and that would be a very damaging report for trump. Thank you for your time tonight. More on the Defense Strategy and whether not they have more information on what theyve shown within this indictment. Please dont gogo dont goooooo dont go away get a free storage upgrade when you preorder at verizon. Please dont go was also the first time your profits left you speechless. At the counter or on the go, save 20 with the lowest Transaction Fees and keep more of what you make. Start saving today at godaddy. Com type 2 diabetes . Discover the ozempic® trizone. In my ozempic® trizone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. In studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. 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