Transcripts For CSPAN House Ways Means Tax Reform Markup - Part 2 20171110

Years later, this weekend on American History tv on cspan3. At yesterdays house ways and means session on the tax reform bill, members debated a series of democratic amendments and ended with a vote to move the bill to the full house. Congressman kevin brady chairs the markup session. This part of the meeting at three and a half hours. The committee will come to order. The clerk will call the role. Roll. Mr. Johnson . Mr. Johnson, no. Mr. Nuance . Nunes . Mr. Tiberi . Mr. Tiberi, no. Mr. Reichert . No. Mr. Roskam . Mr. Roskam, no. Mr. Smith of nebraska . Miss jenkins . Miss jenkins, no. Mr. Paulson in mr. Paulson, no. Mr. Marchant . Ms. Black . Mr. Reed . Mr. Kelly . Mr. Kelly . No. Mr. Ranaci . No. Mr. Mean . Ms. Nome . Ms. Nome, no. Mr. Hold something mr. Holding, no. Mr. Smith of missouri . Mr. Smith, no. Mr. Wright . Mr. Wright, no. Schweigers in no. Ms. Malorsky, no. Mr. Crevello . Mr. Bishop . Mr. Bishop. No. Mr. Neal . Mr. Neal, yes. Mr. Levin, yes. Mr. Lewis, yes. Mr. Doggett . Mr. Doggett, yes. Mr. Thompson . Aye. Mr. Larsen, yes. Aye. Umenaur, mr. Kind . Mr. Kind, aye. Cral, yes. Mr. Davis . Aye. Ms. Sanchez . Aye. Mr. Hug insurance. Mr. Higgins, aye. Ms. Sewell, aye. Ms. Delbini, aye. Ms. Khu . Aye. Mr. Nunes . Mr. Smith of nebraska . Mr. Smith, no. R. Marchant . Ms. Black . R. Relieved . R. Mean. Erbello . Mr. Crowley . Chairman brady . No. Chairman brady, no. Ms. Sanchez . How has ms. Sanchez recorded . Ms. Sanchez has recorded as yes. Show mr. Mean recorded . Mr. Mean is not recorded. Mr. Mean, no. How is ms. Black recorded . Ms. Black is not recorded. Ms. Black, no. How is mr. Kerbello recorded . Hes not recorded. Mr. Kerb be olle, no. Mr. Reed . Mr. Reed is not recorded. Mr. Reed, no. Mr. Chairman . The clerk will report the vote. S. 15 yays, 22 nay the amendment is not agreed to. Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman . Ms. Sewell, for what purpose . Point of person privilege. Granted. In light of the fact that i think that my amendment on historic tax credit has sort of shown the point that a that the whole of the deaf hole of a deficit would only be closed by 50 million by repealing the historic tax crept, i withdraw my amendment in the interest of time. The amendment has been withdrawn by ms. Sewell. Are there further amendments in nature to substitute . For what purpose . I ask to summit a statement to the record relative to my intent on the kind amendment yesterday. Without objection. Further eafments . Mr. Chair, i have an amendment at the desk. The gentle lady as an an has an amendment at the desk. Mr. Reicher . The court will distribute the amendment and i ask the gentle lady to suspend while the clerk distributes. Youre recognized to speak on your amendment. My amendment reverses one of the biggest giveaways to the wealthy in this bill, the elimination of the estate tax. When we talk about our tax system help children in need, we dont mean i vanca trump. Children like ivanka trump are exactly the ones who get helped estate tax. Ng the it only applies to estates that exceed 5. 5 million or 11 million per couple. Thats more than middleincome americans typically earn over their entire lifetime. In fact, over out of every 1,000 estates in this country, only the wealthiest two would pay any estate tax at all. That is. 2 of all estates in this country. Not only that, large loopholes already enable manys tailts to avoid paying tacks. Republicans claim this is really about small farms and businesses but this is not what the data shows. In 2017, how many Small Businesses or farms are expected to pay the tax . Only 80. And our president confirms what this amendment really is. Just yesterday, nbc news reported that trump told Senate Democrats that he wanted a repeal of the estate tax in the bill because they have to give something to rich people. This elimination would be a massive windfall to the wealthiest estates of 3 million appeals and it would cost our federal budget 269 billion over 10 years. Think of what that could pay for. That could pay for childcare for 4. 2 million children. In fact, just the trump familys estate tax windfall could pay for childcare for 100,000 children. Instead of taking away tax celts for adopting a child. In instead of eliminating the tax for catastrophic diseases. How about helping the middle class . How about having those who can afford it, the ultrarich, pay their tax. We must do the right thing. Vote yes on my amendment to pay the estate tax. I yield back. The gentle lady yields back. Thank you, mr. Chairman and i oppose this amendment for many, many reasons. Mainly because i believe the death tax is unamerican and anyone whos sitting here and says that repealing the death tax will only help the ultrawealthy does not have any idea what theyre talking about. When i was going to college and i was married and working part time but my i was taking full time classes. I got a call one day that my dad was stuck in a corn bin. I said turn the fans on and ill be there in 10 minutes. When i got there, the hired men and my brother had pulled the bin apart. 100 farmers were digging through the grain trying to find him. They took him to the hospital and tried to save his life but we lost my dad that day at the age of 49. This was devastating for me because my dad was my hero and my whole lifes plan was to grow up and be a farmer with him. About a month later we got a letter from the i. R. S. Saying that we owed death taxes. We had machinery and cattle but we did not have money in the bank to pay those taxes so for 10 years we paid on a loan to pay those taxes and it made it very difficult for us to keep your family operation going. Anyone who says this only hits wealthy people does not talk to farmers and ranchers and Small Business owners in their district. If we had had a Grocery Store or gas station, the only thing we could have done would be to sell that business to pay those taxes. Its unfair. The main reason i support it is its a double tax. You pay taxes on your income when youre making your living and then for the federal government to come in and tax you again at the point of tragedy in your family is the worst thing that we could do and it doesnt line up with any of the principles we hold so dear in this country. This tax is fund mentally flawed. Setting aside that, think about how much Family Businesses have to spend on estate family. Millions of dollars are spent each and every year and hours of time dedicated to figuring out even if they qualify or saved and prevented from being hit by the death tax. E National Taxpayers union estimates that it cost 18. 4 billion, equivalent to about 80 of the total revenue the federal government realizes. The estatement tax realizes nearly 4 of the total tax burden while contributing less. 1 of 1 to the government. Our families should not have to deal with this hitting them at the worst time in their lives. S the a it is a horrible thing to do to american families. With that, mr. Chairman, i yield back. Thank you. Mr. Levin, youre speak on the amendment. You know, were waiting for the managers amendment and we just wait and wait and were going to run out of time and i suppose the answer is going to be were not going to have enough time to be given to us to really look into it. And so i really think were making a terrible mistake, mr. Chairman. The first time you did this, it struck some real chorppeds and emotions among us and it turned out that we were right, that there were several provisions in there which had ramifications way beyond what could be determined immediately. And i just want to express again the feeling not only of myles but i think not only democrats but people in this country you can call that regular order, but in terms of process, its total disorder. So lets just spend a minute talking about this professional that is part of your december frat effort to find money and now youre short and so youre scrambling to find it. I just say with due respect to the gentle lady, you know, i represent 700,000 people, like each of you. More or less. His bill affects roughly two out of every 1,000 people while takes away so much money, 171. 5 billion. And you have a tax cut that more and more the evidence is will not benefit huge numbers of middle class families. I havent, in the years ive been here that the estate tax has been brought up, we have never found a Single Person in our district who would be affected by this who supports it. Indeed, the relatively few , ople who would be affected people of immense wealth have said to me this is a mistake to eliminate it. That the very wealthy, including themselves who have talked to me have done very, very well while the middle class and those aspiring to it have not. In is another evidence of where your priorities lie and theyre in a very wrong place and i think when we see the managers amendment, thats going to be further evidence of it. Mr. Chairman, where is it . The gentleman yields back. Mr. Reicher, youre recognized. Thank you, mr. Chairman. In my own state, there are examples of harmful affects of the estate fact. In seattle, its critical for the familyowned business of the seattle times, a fourth and fifthgeneration company. Nome l stores like miss bring home the importance of us finishing this piece of legislation and id like to yield additional time to ms. Nom sombings she can continue her testimony. I thank my friend for yielding and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle talked about how only two out of 1,000 people would be affected by the death tack. I think any family that has to spend any money doing Estate Planning is putting money into something that they could otherwise be investing in their business or families. Therefore theyre spending money on something thats not helping them be successful, not paying the bills that are important to their family. My dad had done Estate Planning. He had spent thousands of dollars to do it. The laurgs had called him that week and said his new will was ready. He just hadnt gotten there to sign it yet. Another colleague talked about the fact that only the wealthy have teams of laurels and theyll help them to avoid the tax anyway. All the more reason to repeal in estate tax. If only the wealthy can avoid it, youre hurting the others affected. According to the farm bureau, that estimate that at 2016 Farm Real Estate values, farms larger than 1,400 achers and all others larger than 2,200 acres would xceed the 5 million exemption level. I know of many farms just in my county that have hit that level already and they live constantly preparing that that land can be passed on to the next generation. Already when its hard enough for Young Farmers to get involved in farming with the cost of it. Its more than 5,000 south dakota farms that could be hit with the deaths tax and with land values going up, thats not all the costs. 500,000. Can cost 4 or a tractor that can cost 600,000. You have cattle, machinery, equipment, all of that. Is figured into your estate tax. S paid into this death and every year these farmers have ranchers have to do more planning to prepare for the future and that theyre not putting their family in jeopardy. Dont believe in unamerican tax, this unfair tax doesnt hit the hardworking people who are right now in the middle of harvest in south dakota in the snow and the cold they take their money, they bury it in the dirt and they shouldnt have to worry about this tax. The gentle lady yields back. Mr. Collier, youre recognized to speak on the amendment. I have a question for mr. Barthold. Thank you for your service and as the chief of staff of the non bipartisan tax staff committee. You do great work and we have come to rely upon you and your staff to give us goodfaith answers. Both democrats and republicans, we appreciate your work as we draft any tax measure, including this one. You are the only voice we can really agree upon as being an honest broker. You said yesterday in response to a question i had that two out of every 1,000 americans benefits by the elimination of the estate tax. 002 . I need a little more clarification on the section of this bill. Some social media accounts include claims or comments that it is false that this tax this tax little bill, hr1 repeals the medical suspense expense deduction. Can you clarify once and for all if this bill in its currents form repeals the medical expense deduction . Hr1 repeals the itemized deduction for medical expenses. So america understands that hr1 in its presents form does repeal the medical expense reduction. Thank you. Again, were seeing one more tax on our seniors and it is done so to benefit the wealthiest people in our nation. Not just the one 1 but the wealthiest,. 002 of the wealth in this nation. The medical compensation deduction is a financial to provide for a debilitating disease like alzheimers. In order to cater to the richest 002 . E wealthiest point the deduction provided independent for seniors in a golden age. We should not rob them of their independence in the name of special interest giveaways like the estate tax. I think you, for your honesty. I yield back. The gentleman yield back. Mr. Smith, you are recognized. Mr. Smith thank you, mr. Chairman. Just a few notes. Ive heard the people on the other side of the aisle numerous times say that this affects only 80 people. I could tell you in my district, if you want to find more than 80 people alone, come to Southeast Missouri. Farmers are land rich but cash poor. There are not the ones that higher the teams of attorneys and accountants to get by with a pay for thedont system. It is farmers who have unexpected incidents much like the lady from south dakota. That happened day in and day out in Southeast Missouri. Is 1300age cotton farm acres. The average price for a cotton farm is 10,000 per acre. Thats over 13 million. Anyone in that bracket is a 1 er. They dont have five dollars to their name in a bank account because they have passed the farms on from generation to generation. Illuminating the death tax in keeping the double tax, youre saying we want to eliminate family farms. I can cut you, the reason why i am in congress is to make sure we have family farms and the people in Southeast Missouri can continue with their livelihood. I would not allow you to call my take away and try to their family farms. I would like to yield the balance of my time to the lady from south dakota. How much time is left . One minute, 28 seconds. To give some information. The recent information we have on family farms is from 2013, death taxes. D there will be many more firms facing this and the years to come, one third of all farmers in the u. S. Are 65 years of age or older. One third are between ages of 55 and 65. We have a big bubble of family farmers looking for ways to retire and pass on their operations that are dealing with trying to figure out how not to get their farm taken away by this unfair tax. And farm and ranch affects are not liquid, leaving a few options to pay off the death tax. It is required to be paid in cash within nine months of death in most cases, and this is difficult and requires folks to sell all things below market value. Agricultureases in crop land value, on average 7. 6 from 2013 until 2014, i know we bought some land before my dad died, that land is 10 times that for you today than it was in 1994 when he passed away. The first thing we did when we got the bill from the irs, we downsize. We were about 10,000 acres, we downsized to about 1000 acres. It has a chilling effect, not only on the families but our economy. I yield back. Nebraska,th of recognize to speak. Would like to associate myself with some of the comments already made, and also talk about new aspects of this issue, but number one, i believe death should not be a taxable event, number one, whether it is primary text, double tax, trouble tax, whatever you name it. To, it isata points unfair. Rthold, barker told ba i have a question. It is possible for any size estate, to plan around the death tax . Mr. Barthold there are many different Planning Strategies that people undertake, the short answer is yet. It is conceivable that folks with the resources to do so, can plan to avoid paying the tax premature altogether pretty much altogether. Mr. Barthold it will substantially reduce liabilities in many cases, and sometimes eliminated. Mr. Smith can you speak to the frequency of that occurrence . Mr. Barthold not without further study from and help from some of my colleagues. Simple strategies that people take, they may make lifetime gifts to family members, especially if it is family assets if they are going to be continued on, they use Family Limited partnerships and put assets in a Family Limited tod are able value them by air liquide i lliquid restraints, limiting the liability under the estate tax. Mr. Smith thank you. We do know that certainly the very sophisticated estates and owners of estate plan around it. I am sensing from this discussion, theres things there seems to be an entitlement to take large portions of estate and give it to the federal government. Ms. Noemsy, after comments, we should not be doing that around the country cutie it has a negative effect on farms and ranches and Small Businesses , as well. Many of these operations cannot simply sell off a portion of their operation and have a viable operation to continue. Mindo keep these folks in rather than trying to overly overlyg this simplified this argument, that can be disputed as well. I yield back. You are recognized to speak on the minute. You itime to miss yield time. Tax,is is a silver spoon or the wealthiest children of this country. Noam, i am sorry that your father died, but it has been 22 years since your fathers accident, and while his death may have triggered the estate tax in 1994 when the exemption was 600,000, today the estate would have to be worth at least 5. 45 million, and for a married couple, it would have to be 10 point 9 million before any tax can be assessed. The estate tax applies only to the richest. 2 of americans, and it is extremely rare for a family farm to be affected by it at all. Farms3, how many actual had to pay an estate tax . 20. 20. Paid an effective rate of just 16. 6 on average. It is also important to note that it has not been shown that a Single Family farm has ever been lost as a result of the estate tax. In fact, there has not been a single example that advocates have been able to come up with. You, mr. Rossum. Noam. Yield to ms. I appreciate the condolences. I was in a time, i became the general manager of the operation. The only thing that made me feel better at the time was working. That is what i did to get through it. It is hard to think about the financial stresses we had, how our family was going to get through the situation. I just loaded cows, went to the fields, rented crops and got through it. You say not a Single Family farm was lost because of pain the death tax, i never know where you come up with that statement. It sounds ridiculous to me. It is not like some farmer is going to say, put a notice on the auction notice in the paper and say i am selling my family farm because of the death tax. What they do is they are hit by the situation, and they put a couple of pieces of land up for sale. They sell those off to help pay the tax, but they are much less efficient. Less that means they had to have higher yield or higher prices, they are taking a gamble. If you dont know how agriculture works, you borrow operating money, you borrow money for equipment, to pay for your land, and you put it in the dirt and you hope the sunshine and it rains and that fall you can kick up something that will pay your bills. A become less efficient at the dock at the prices they need in the yield of they need. A situatione in where they have to sell more land. 6, seven or eight years later that the farmer is out of business until separation. Are you counting that as a family farm lost to the death tax . No, but i see around me everything will day. Are thengle day, these questions and comments i get from people who are standing in elevators, going to marketing meetings trying to figure out how they are going to protect themselves on the low prices we are having today, when it is a grout like we had in south dakota this year, what will we do to hold our operation together . To saylutely false family farms are not lost to the death tax, because youre not looking at the longterm effects of the action they have to take to say that. It is a Ripple Effect that continues to cause problems for them and their families. Again, at the time this happened yes,amily, if we had the rates were different, everything was different, that lets not forget about how ridiculous this taxes. Nowhere else to do it purposely double tax people, but here it is ok. If you have assets, we will double tax you because we are mad you have assets. When you have a situation where somebody has a Grocery Store, gas station, and they are valued the same as our operation, the only option would been to sell the family business. Thats not what this country is about. The gentlelady yells back. Ms. Sanchez, you are recognized. Yield time toe to my colleague, mr. Crowley. Mr. Crowley mistakes can be made in the drafting of legislation. We have seen sometimes with the naming of a post office, or Something Like what we have before us today, hr one. Sometimes it is so glaring when you dont see it right before you. What we know is, this is really about giving tax breaks to the wealthiest. The wealthiest. 5 , the wealthiest. 2 in the nation. Hr 1 . Ould be called because it benefits the wealthiest in our nation at the expense of working men and women who every day are trying to make et. Imate make ends me i yield back. You are recognized. Thank you, i want to take a second and associate myself with remarks and tell you what it is like in indianas second district. I have never met a silver spoon tax person in my district or state. This is called the death tax because, in my district where in my district, the largest Manufacturing District in the nation, we are made up of entrepreneurs who have taken massive risks Just Like Family farmers. I take the risk on themselves, and many have failed many times on both sides, manufacturing and farming. I have seven Generation Farmers in my district, not just one or two, but many. The appreciation of that land is just that, it is the dirt and the land that is sown and they reap and sometimes they fail and they go back and do it again. Ot a call to get his room a call two days ago from someone in my district who said, i have worked my entire life and i paid taxes, i never missed a tax bill, i am a lawabiding citizen, and i believe it is reprehensible for when i die, i cannot send it to my kids or assets that the keep this business in my family because the government wants 40 . It should not be celebrated, these people do not owe the government one more sent. More cent. Family farms, seven generations, they dont owe any more than they are party paid. , i have this amendment opposed this amendment since i have been in elective position, to stand up for the farmers and manufacturers in my district. These are the people that make america great. They are the people that provide jobs. I think it is a time when we think these people, we fight to isl back the tax hr1 about putting more money in the pockets of hoosiers, to create more jobs, more highpaying jobs, and the days of the robbing people in their lowest moment of death and his family comes to an end today when we pass this bill. I yield back. Mr. Paulson, you are recognized. I certainly cannot be as eloquent and talking about this issue as my colleague from south dakota, who went through a personal tragedy and through hard work was able to overcome essentially losing an entire farm because of tragic event. Ill have a lot of farmers in my district, but i talked to folks who are concerned about the estate tax impacting losing a farm, being handed on to the next generation. When i had aed conversation with a Small Business owner in bloomington, minnesota. Someone who had built up a company all on their own, blood, sweat and tears, always worried about making the paycheck employee asr the they worked up the ladder and provided Good Customer Service and had a Good Business operation. They have been very successful. Employee i think nearly 200 people today. Them, they share the story about how they are in the process of hiring all of these accountants and lawyers to not only plan a succession plan, going to the next generation of how the business would stay in operation, but what was more impactful on me was the fact that they said that if they were hit by a death tax tomorrow or the next week, without the planning in place, 200 other people would be out of work. 200just the family, but other hardworking americans would be out of a job right there on the spot. I think with this is about is reforming a system and making sure we are getting this right, not only for the next generation, but it keeps these businesses healthy and strong and employing people all throughout our country. I yield back. Mr. Brady the gentleman yields back. Recognized. You are mr. Pascal mr. Chairman, we have listened to arguments similar to this over the last 10 years since ive been here. You would think from listening to the arguments in favor of doing away with what was called a few years ago the death tax, a very popular name, the death tax , you would think that everybody was going to be ready for a windfall when folks in the family pass to the lord. This bill not only eliminates the estate tax, mr. Chairman, but it does nothing to step up bases. You all know that, right . Since youre so familiar. The estate tax, meaning parents can pass down assets untaxed for generations upon generations. That is the beginning of an aristocracy, that is the beginning of what has happened in other countries. There is no windfall here for the average guy and gal. You are going to have money in this that has never been touched. How is that fair . Iu tell me how that is fair, am glad to listen. I will yield, if anybody wants to answer the question. You can do it on my time. Ive got two minutes left. How is it fair to pass on your asset you have accumulated . Pascrell yes. The residual assets are after you have earned that money, after you have worked her tail off day in and day out to create that estate. How is that not fundamentally unfair in america to take away, as my colleague from south dakota have happen with her family farm, how is it fair that the government take that away . The gentleman from new jersey controls the time. mr. Chairman, the point is that there are many assets. 50 years ago, we tax assets more than income, now we tax income more than assets. There is a reason for this. We are all part of it, democrats and republicans that laid out those books over there that you have in front of you. Totallyty is not responsible for that, and neither are the democrats. A perceptionded out there that there is a windfall. There is no windfall here. That is the beginning of an era stock was secured when you dont tax income or assets. I am saying to you, that is what is being created here. Ive heard nothing to the contrary, nothing to the contrary. I hope folks are listening to this. The death tax is a misnomer. They dont use it as much as they did before. There is a reason for that. It cant stand up to scrutiny. Look at the step up basis for states and you will know what im talking about. I yield back. Mr. Brady the gentleman yields back. Mr. Kelly wishes to speak. Mr. Kelly interesting conversation. , i appreciate what happened to you. Where i get confused is that at the end of a persons life, his or her product, the entire product of their life, they paid their income tax, they paid sales tax, they paid taxes and taxes. In my family, my mother ran the switchboard at the chevrolet factory. It took her and my mother also likes to build something. My mother died early at 67 from cancer, my dad made it to 89 years old. My dad never feared death. He feared death taxes. He knew he was going to die, and he also knew if he wasnt able to do some thing ahead of time, his entire life, and my mothers entire life would be in jeopardy because of this tax that looms over people because of an event called death. If you dont want to call a death tax, call it Something Else. What is so hard for me to comprehend, this is such an immoral issue, in america the event of somebodys death after they have paid taxes their entire life, after the head build not only their family and businesses, these people work seven days a week to build this. These privileged few people are taking advantage of a tax issue they never should be privy to. That is absolutely insane. That is not who we are. That is not who we should ever want to be, but to sit here and listen to this time after time and then all of a sudden to say, we are talking about people like the trump kids. Those are the people we have to be afraid of, all of those terrible, rich people. Dont you get tired of the identity politics . Dont you get tired of the war on the wealthy . Dont you get tired of causally going after people, and saying they are just too dam rich . They worked all their life, so they are to raise. I dont care what they have done to get through, i dont care about the years they could not pay one penny in tax because they didnt make any money that year, i dont care what they did for the children, i dont care what they did for the towns, or what they did for other people, when they die, we are going to reach into the coffin and call that money out of their lifes work and sit back and say, we are only doing this because the really wealthy people, these terrible, terrible wealthy people have a tax break they shouldnt have. What triggers that tax break . They have to die. Are you kidding me . Where is the fairness. This is so immoral, to sit here and talk this way. The reason we have to go after this revenue is because unlike these people who work the whole life to build a successful business, we have buried ourselves insomuch irresponsible in so much irresponsible debt that we have to go after hardworking american taxpayers. It is incredible. Mr. Brady will the gentleman yield . No, i will not, youll probably try to take the time anyway. We should look at this. It doesnt matter if you are democrat or republican. Lets talk about we, the American People. A lot of democrats im assuming are wealthy. They have done some good things toldr life, they foundations, buildings, universities, scholarship funds. We aree the sobs, going to go after those folks. And something even worse, they are going to pass it on to their kids. What good person would ever want to get anything to his daughter or son . , my mother and dad worked seven days a week to build our business. My dad started with nothing. We went broke so many times, just to scrape by. Through the grace of god, we got through it. Old,is guys age, 89 years two months shy of his birthday, 90th birthday, i sat with him in the middle of the night, and you know he told me . I said, what is up . Get out i have got to for. It was the middle of the night in february. I said, you want to go for a ride . Where do you want to go . He said, heaven, but you know what, i think i am alive for a reason. I have prepared for your kids but there must be Something Else for me to do. Thats why hes keeping me alive, i wish he would tell me. Those are the people you want to tax after we have buried them. Ridiculous and immoral. Is brady the jobless time the gentleman said is expired. Mr. Neal. Of this the challenge debate is simple. At a time of concentrated wealth in america, when we have watched these vast fortunes only grow, this is really about an argument in which we did not create a permanent sense of aristocracy. By the look of the draw, having been born to the right parents, by the simple argument that we serve in the house of representatives not in the house of lords, maybe we should be granted. Peerage here, a permanent role in governance based on our ancestors. The stories ive heard here are elegant and eloquent, but many of us just wanted a chance against a lot of famous names. Rich might decide to spend their fortunes to come to the house of representatives. Maybe we should hold those seeds, cancel the elections and just let the next generation inherit the seat. Because if you are not careful, we say to the vast numbers of the American People, that is not for you. I understand the success that Small Business people have, but keeping 11 million is not a bad starting place in life. I can assure you is is despite the debate we are having today, United States senate is going to look at this and say that we cannot afford it. The American People will be cancel Student Interest loan deductions, what we take away medical tax rates for people who are disabled, while we take away the class tax benefits like to state and local Tax Deduction also that we might further concentrate wealth. You know the great thing about the estate tax is in america . It came from teddy roosevelt. Thought,oosevelt despite the famous name and inherited wealth, that if you were careful with it, you would discourage entrepreneurship. You would discourage success. This is not a tax on comrade Hilton Conrad hilton. This is a tax on another member of that family. Thats the way we should be looking at this debate. We are passing on 11 million to a family and saying that is not enough to start, and i think we got a 40 after that. Think thats the way this argument should be presented. Nobody is trying to renege on success, but lets not renege on opportunity, either. Mr. Brady the gentleman yield back. Mr. Meehan, you are recognized. Mr. Meehan i have heard this word aristocracy used a number ifdifferent times, as somebody who has invested themselves in a business and created it is some panel is somehow some kind of elite. I wish the members on the other side of the aisle would come in they dont need to, they can go to their own districts, i know they represent people who have the same story. I wish they would come to the Machine Works in pennsylvania, i can tell you the hardworking people do not feel they are part of aristocracy. The great thing about the Machine Works and the family, they own a metal forging business since 1931. What they have handed down from one generation to the next is the opportunity to scrap, to preserve good, american jobs in manufacturing. Trust me when i tell you as i owner andthe elderly talked about passing the business down. He is given it to the son, who have to wake up the next morning and figure out how to fight to make sure that the workers in withthe 140plus workers good factory jobs, who in addition to good paying factory jobs, guess who works there . Firstgeneration workers from 17 countries. I watched him walk around and put his arm around young people who he was sending to school at drexel university, to learn the latest technology, so they can take an americanbased company. They are investing that money. When i asked them what they would do with the credit they would be able to have to invest in their own business, he was not talking about the 500,000, he said i need a machine that will be about 1. 6 million. That is what they are doing with all of this wealth. Those 140nvesting in workers. He is going to create a new machine that is going to keep an herecan manufacturing job in the United States in metal forging. That is what the benefit of this is. I asked him, what happens if you cant pass this down . He said, we would just close it up. We would sell it. Doesntext generation get the benefit of what they have continued since 1931. There are arguments about the big basketball players and movie stars that seem to put a lot of moneys into the campaigns of my friends, but here mr. Chairman. But these people do not see themselves as aristocrats. They see themselves as preserving american jobs and competing to keep manufacturing on our shores. Arebrady mr. Rice, you recognized. Mr. Rice as you know, in my prior life, i was a tax warrior and accountant, so i hear about these folks talking about tax in accountants, and i reasonable that a mark. A little levity. The tried and true method of Business Success in myrtle beach for a long time was, you go and y and oldr bu and youpop Hotel Mortgage it up so much on the front end, you can get a mortgage from the bank, you have to take a second from the seller. You dont have any money. So you move into one of the units. And you live there all year long and you bring out the hotel and you barely scrape by and barely pay your mortgage. And you have to move out of that one unit you listen to you live in in the summertime, you need the revenue, so you sleep on a caught a cot. You gradually pay your mortgage off, you do that over the years, and maybe eventually you can buy a house. His great buy for another 10 years, and your mortgage is paid off. Time to retire. That is the folks who came to me. And the farmers in South Carolina. They didnt have any money, but at least ons paper, they were asset rich. Hundreds if not more than 1000 folks in that exact circumstance. Amountent an inordinate of time and legal fees planning avoiding a losing half of their assets at their death. I will say that this law, in addition to the tax that great so much inefficiency that it makes people consider doing things they would never do. I also have to respond to something that was set a minute ago. Was said a minute ago. Dont begrudge success, but dont begrudge opportunity, either. Take from that statement i think you have the wrong person. It was mr. , right. Pomeroy. Whoever said it, it is ridiculous. Would look of the guy on the hill and say, we need to take him down. In america, you say im going to buy that house on the hill. What has held people back from opportunity in this country is the regulation, outdated tax code, and all we are trying to do. R. Brady time gentleman yield back. Mr. Bishop, your recognize. Mr. Bishop i dont really know what happened in this country, where we started to talk about the accumulation of wealth as something that is that that is bad. In my area, we would celebrate success, celebrate wealth. That was part of the american dream. I am here today because my family worked hard, as well. And was good to me, as well. I intend to do that for my family. I just want to reflect a little bit on the city of detroit by example. The number of families who have stood by that city, and the thesethat aristocratic families, so to speak, that have almost singlehandedly turned that city around. Of the world,ts the penske family. City folks stood by the and gave back. They are generational, and their kids will do the same. That is the way they are trained. That kind of accumulated wealth will be good for our country it has been good for our country. I travel all around my district, i talked to folks in here concerns. One is our Biggest Industries in michigan is the agriculture business. It is our second largest in michigan. Our farmers tell me that this particular issue is of foremost concern to them, because of the thousands of acres of farmland we are losing every year because farmers just flat give up on the cost of doing business and they end up repurposing farmland for residential or some other use because they cannot afford to do it anymore. We ought to be doing everything we can, i think, to embrace our agriculture, our farmers, and do whatever we can for these arerational farms who facing al qaeda pressures right now. I for one will do everything i can to support them. This is not a tax we are talking about. This is a penalty. This is a penalty at the time of death. It is not a tax because these people have already paid their taxes. They pay their taxes on their income, they pay their taxes on their assets, they pay taxes on the machinery, on their dog and cat and anything else the irs can get hold of. The only thing they have done wrong is they have died. We should not penalize them for that, and we certainly should not penalize the surviving family. I for one of poses amendment. I am grateful for the chairman bring forward the discussion, and i yield back. Mr. Brady the joe mcgills back. Ms. Larson mr. Larson is recognized. Applaud my i want to colleagues on the other side for their eloquence insincerity. And sincerity. If there was an opportunity to bring expert witnesses and a my colleague, who i came to congress with, would have had a chance to introduce his bill that exempts those agricultural entities so that they dont find themselves in this situation. But we were not allowed that. So your eloquence and talk about how it is a tax on success and a , you then saytax the way we will pay for that, however, is to double tax the citizens in the state of connecticut in the middle class. Your way of paying for it is to say that that machinist, that carpenter, that nurse, that teacher, they are not successful. Pascis where mr. Neal and rell are warning about the dangers of aristocracy. It comes from the fact that you are using the pay is on the back east on the backs of the northeast and west coast. That is the rub of the elimination of the state and local tax and having people who forct those taxes then pay your programs. What adds insult to injury, when you are a donor state what the state of connecticut, when you are paying more to the federal government, when youre paying get thestates that assistance from the federal government, and rightly so, and we are proud to do that, because we want people in South Carolina and the dakotas and across this country to succeed. We want a strong military, we want commerce and energy to flow. We are happy to do our share. Ist is compounding confounding the people in the northeast, why you then want to double tax us and then also tax people that are successful . Landedy not be aristocracy, but they are teachers and carpenters and plumbers and machinists and accountants and lawyers and doctors. Because they own homes of their own and have families, you want to double tax them and double tax their success. That is what our concern is. What a shame we never had experts so we could of had a debate, and this was not in regular order. You have a political mission, we understand you are on it. Mr. Brady the german yields back. Gentleman yields back. Thatm starting to learn when the other side says things multiple times, they hope it is a fact. We keep going back through this, and im going to go back through it again and hopefully we will come up with a fax. We talk about double taxation, there is no such thing. State and local taxes are going to things that are being used by your local divisions. Im not sure where we could talk about double taxation. We talk about medical expenses. Lets go through this again. Thold, when you have a medical expense, you have to get 10 of your agi before you can use any qualified or claimed deduction, correct . Mr. Barthold under present law, correct. Even a few get past 10 , that goes into a calculation, which you add to your state and local income tax, then you have to overmerit final jointly 12,600 dollars before the actual claims and qualified expenses that might friend keeps talking about, you can attempt to use them. If the standard structure, you have to get above the standard duction. Mr. Barthold that is also correct. 75 of americans today dont get above that 12,600, correct . Mr. Barthold 70 . Hr1 does, 95 what will not get above the standard induction, even though they will have claims and qualified medical expenses, all of these deductions, 95 of the people will not be able to itemize, correct . Mr. Barthold under the reduced activation of itemized deductions, it will be 94 . The other side continues to talk about these deductions your there not deductions if they cant go above the standard deductions, and a help the American People are watching. Another issue my colleagues on the other side, a key wanting to talk they keep wanting to talk about the middle class and working class not going are not going to get a tax cut. They falsely claim, it must be a talking point, you mustve hired someone to come up with a talking point, the Senate Democrats are using it. And the Washington Post called out. Democrats falsely claimed the gop tax plan will raise taxes for working class families. This is the article from the Washington Post. I will read the last paragraph. Theheir haste to condemn gop tax plan, democrats have spread far and wide the false claim that families making less than 86,000 on average will pay a hefty tax. Opposite,it is the most families in the range will get a tax cut. Any democrat who spreads his claim should delete their tweets and make clear they were in error. I hope the American People are hearing this versus the continuations, you continue to say it is a fact. It is not a fact. , you are mr. Cabela recognized. Mr. Curbelo the estate tax is not a major concern in my district. So far, it doesnt look very good for my daughters, either. But i do think this is an issue of fundamental fairness. I will Say Something that struck me as i was listening to the debate earlier. Perceive that in some of the discourse, a certain resentment for people who have it achieved financial who have achieved Financial Success. Again, i am not as fortunate as some of my colleagues in congress that have done very well. I actually admire them. Perhaps this is because where i we have ain miami, lot of survivors of government and regimes throughout the world sowed resentment between different socioeconomic classes. There were a lot of people in miami that were promised in countries like cuba, venezuela, colombia, bolivia, nicaragua, they were promised that the government was going to go after those who had achieved Financial Success and help everyone else. Well, thank god for the United States of america. Because if not, all of these people would have been stuck in living hells, my family included. Where we country celebrate Financial Success and we want people to aspire and achieve success, whatever that means for each individual. I would just caution my colleagues, i think our country is divided enough. We dont need to add to that in this debate. I think on this issue, we can take a step back and look at one of our colleagues who lost her father and got a bill from the irs, and just say, that doesnt sound right. That doesnt seem right. These americans have paid their taxes. By the way, i am grateful to them, because they fund most of our government. So i just took that we could come together and not use an issue like this to sow resentment or divide our country further. I yield back. Mr. Brady thank you. Mr. Buchanan, you are recognized. Mr. Buchanan thank you. I wanted to weigh in, i want to go back to, i think john larsons point that he made. I want to understand that in the world i grew up in, and i will talk about my friend that has a business in our area. Maybe 20 years ago in sarasota, in that region. , he paid a minimum amount of money down, he had to borrow the money from the bank. I say over 40 years, he europe in a bluecollar family, it is not donald trump money, but he has created probably, the valuation of the business is probably about 60 million. To buy that business, he had to go to the bank, sign personally, but his house on the line, and he has slowly been paying that that off over the years. Today, he is a business i am guessing worth about 60 million. The bottom line is, if something happens to him, he has to pay 40 outcome of 24 million in he hasf a death tax, four daughters, i have a son. Sellm line, you have to the business because the business is not have that kind of cash flow. Creator in ourob area. I get sick of this thing about the 1 , because i know a lot of those 1 , many of them started with nothing, america should be about opportunity. You should not have to apologize for america to be successful. In the same world heated, both bluecollar kids out of detroit. We started nothing 40 years ago, we built big businesses, i am getting ready, my son is now in the business. I would like him to have our business. We would have to go to the bank and mortgage the business substantially to pay the death tax. There are a lot of middlemarket companies, i am all for the small companies, but when you talk about 10 million or 12 million, that is a lot of money by any stretch. You have to understand, a lot of businesses or maybe 50 million to 100 million the have to sell the business to get into the next generation. And probably a lot of farmers and ranchers in nebraska and other places that they have assets but not cash. That is the reality. My point is, you shall not have to apologize in america for being a successful. Playing by the rules, paying your taxes, creating, in my case, over one thousand jobs, and you feel you have to apologize for being successful. Thats not the america i grew up in. There are a lot of people in this category that i think need to be celebrated, not demonized. With that, i yield back. Mr. Brady the german yields the gentleman yields eight seconds . Just asking why you are double taxing people. After you illuminate second, you said they will not be able to use it. Mr. Brady alltime is expired. Mr. Trump, i have a unanimous consent request for the record. Chairman, i have a unanimous consent request for the record. Yes. Since were talking about the Washington Post, there was an analysis out today, there were 11,000 individuals filing estate. 2 of all and any statewill owe tax, and rhetoric is saying these are mostly family farms or Small Businesses, but it is far from the truth. Mr. Brady does anyone else wish to speak on the amendment . Unanimous consent. For . Rady to set into the record the tax codes files and information, the latest information we have on 2016, which lays out how many people are subject to the federal estate tax. If you wish to call it that. 5219 families in the United States. Without objection. This is every state in the union. Does anyone else wish to speak . I would also like to add an article from november 6, who owes biggest in the gop tax plan. Without objection. Does anyone else was just begun the amendment . I would like to offer one thing. I am familiar with some of the numbers that mr. Pascrell is submitting, and i have been asked often in the poor district directors in with an average salary of about 35,000, a lot of farming communities, a lot of family farms. One of the things that greatly concerns me about those farms is that we recently had a renaissance in american energy. The shell formations shale formations have resulted in a tremendous amount of value on mineral and gas rights in these estates. Governor took that property , the away from my farmers folks relying on that land value, those resources, in order to generate a little revenue, take a little bit of the edge off of their daytoday operations, by banning access to a natural gas. My concern, and i never heard a clear answer from folks in this world, those mineral rights, those natural gas rights, how is the irs going to value those . How was the irs going to put a value on those reserves that are declared to be some of the World Largest reserves of mineral and gas and oil rights under my family farms . I assure you, those family farms sit on top of huge amounts of natural gas and oil reserves. If they are valued at some of the projected values that some those folks that tell me mineral and oil and natural gas rights represent, there are many more forms farms in america that could exceed the threshold of the present level, and could be looking at a situation they never planned for. They had no idea that value would be attributable to their estates when they passed away. In the state of new york, where that property right has been taken away by the governor because of governor fiat, i dont know how that is fair. I dont know how that is legitimate. That is another reason, on top of all the reasons my colleagues as whygued and submitted this is an unfair tax, for me to be in support of the efforts we are taking on in regards to the death tax. I would ask my colleagues to bow down this amendment and move forward. I feel back. Mr. Brady the german yields back. The gentleman yields back. Does anyone else was to speak . Thank you, i would yield my time to mr. Pascrell. I want to enter into the record, i do misers in in newe, itemizers dollars inage 31,800 total deductions, which includes medical and casualty. These are the latest figures from 2015, we are getting the figures from 2016, which will be higher. That is the average introductions. In deductions. From 70 tout going 95 , you have to take these things into consideration. Please do that. We are talking about 5200 families in the United States while my constituents are double taxed because of what you are going to do in this piece of legislation. That is fairness . We will have to change the definition of the world the word. I yield back. Mr. Brady does anyone wish to speak on the amendment . I recognize myself. Noams representative passionate leadership on this, i let this for a number of years. I want to address the idle rich and special interest. Family farm in livingston, texas, three times her loved ones have died. Grandfather, father and husband. Three times, uncle sam shows up and says, give us what is due. Three times, they have shelled out money to keep their family farm and home. Idle rich . Roy morton runs a welding supply company. Started it 40 years ago. Ay, his son and grandchild and grandson work there. He has shelled out thousands to do a state planning. Estate planning. Now, you count the store, the inventory, the trucks out back, he is already over the limit. Was, i didn to me not work my whole lifetime for the government, i did this for my family. She said one of her familys estates, it had been in the family 100 years. They had to sell about two thirds of it to pay the death tax. These are the idle rich . Special interests . You look at the people who support this in the past, community pharmacists, florists, people. Auto repair there are not clean hands among them. That is the idle rich . Look at our Small Businesses. The beauty association. They are idle on sundays, maybe. The irrigation association, digging the ditches. Plumbing, heating and cooling. People are the idle rich . Seriously. I tell you what, this is the most unamerican tax we have. You work your whole lifetime, call sam swoopes and when you swoops in uncle sam when you die and can take half of what youve got. Getting rid of this creates 140,000 new american jobs. For that reason and what you heard today from all of our members, it is time to end the death tax. With that, i yield back the balance of my time. Others, are no questions on the amendment, all those in favor say no in favor signify by saying i, all those against say no. The nose have it. Nos have it. Mr. Chairman, point of inquiry. Yes, sir. Mr. Neal had to step out. Did you tell us whether the manager amendment is ready and what the plan is . Just tell us specifically, with the amendment you are proposing, are you ready to introduce it . Mr. Brady the initial question here is, would you like to consider offering amendments to this bill . I noticed last night you had a box full that you thought were imperative to be offered, that you continue to offer to regular offer those amendments . Mr. Levin i think that will depend on the answer to the question. Can i ask you very specifically, because our fear is that if there isnt now presentation of managers amendment, what is going to happen is the clock and be essentially run out we will have very little time. If you could answer very specifically and respectfully, i ask, are you ready to present the managers amendment . Mr. Brady democrats have voluntarily exhausted their regular order opportunity to offer amendments, we will then begin action. Saying, asyou are soon as we are ready, you will present the managers amendment. Mr. Brady when you have decided on your own that you no longer wish to offer amendments to regular order, this committee will act. Mr. Levin could i ask you to give us five minutes to recess please . We have an amendment right now. Mr. Levin i did not know the amendment was up. Mr. Brady are there additional amendments . I have an amendment at the desk. Mr. Brady mr. Buchanan reserves a point of order. Asked the gentleman to and a half inches you are to get your managers amendment, i will try to be brief. Mr. Buchanan, your recognize. A withdrawal my court order. Without objection. The gentleman from wisconsin is recognized. Vocal orever been more optimistic about the first adoption of a democratic commitment than this one right now, because for the last hour and half, we have heard member after member stand up and try to help and protect family farmers and domestic manufacturers throughout the country. This amendment helps you to help our family farmers and domestic manufacturers by strengthening and preserving section 199 and leveling the Playing Field for them in light of the 43 Corporate Tax rate deduction you are offering any legislation. We all know most of our family farmers in domestic manufacturers are structured as passthrough entities. 199 is crucial for their survival. It is based on legislation that has been pending before this committee in the last four years. Rebuilding American Land American Manufacturing and. It has enjoyed bipartisan support. The former republican chair of this committee included this in his copperheads of tax proposal. The Previous Administration included this in their conference of tax reform proposal. Their comprehensive tax reform proposal. They did this because it works. If we want to make things and grow things and create things infant thingsand in america, section 199 is perhaps the most important tool to allow family farmers and manufacturers to accomplish that task. From now were hearing farm country how devastating the removal of 199 is under the proposed legislation. The National Council of farm corp. s estimates that the removal of 199 in your reform bill would in all likelihood 5 e family farm taxes by 17 within the first year. They wont be able to, most of them, benefit from a new pastor ray. In my district, most of my from a new passthrough rate. A my district, they wont get dime from the new rate them as they make over a quarter of a Million Dollars per year. The average family farm income is 75,000. Theyre also concerned about net rating operating loss carry back for those operating on the margin, including dairy farmers. As President Trump likes to refer to them, those milk people. The elimination of the biodiesel , biogas, as i have worked with colleagues on. This is an important provision. If were going to stay in the game for global competitiveness. Farmers have to stay here and grossing. The mystic manufacturers could domestic manufacturers who choose to not move offshore should still be able to enjoy the benefits 199 brings. A halfhe last hour and of everyone standing up in defense of family farms and manufacturing, this amendment will do that and i encourage my colleagues to adopt it. I yield back. The gentlelady from washington is recognized for three minutes. Thank you. I am pleased to support this amendment. Statesict, washington first congressional district, has a thriving agricultural community. Mostly family farms. That plays a key role in our local economy. In the northern part of my district, they are home to hundreds of dairy farms and approximately 95 of the funds are part of a corporatist. Currently, the domestic section 199, helps cooperative in good years and badgers. This is a benefit that farms farms have not had any income that appeared this program can save my farmers a significant amount of money and help them continue to thrive and compete. Thats why i am so concerned about eliminating section 199. In our current environment when the prices are lower than usual, our dairy five dairy farms are hurting. Eliminating 199 would be devastating to these farmers, many in my district. We had a lot to talk about farmers in the earlier discussion. The other have said benefits of the tax reform measure pale in comparison to the loss of the section 199. If we want to help our farmers, this is critical, and they would say it is the most critical. So i strongly urge the majority to reconsider the elimination of this important program, and i urge my colleagues to vote yes on the amendment. I healed i yield my remaining time if he needs it. I ask unanimous consent to have included in the record at the time a letter dated never six, 2017 from the national formil of farm kovacs coops about how devastating the elimination of this would be. Most would see a doubledigit tax increase with the elimination of this provision. Without objection. This is another example of why having hearings and feedback from people we represent in our district are so crucial when it comes to dealing with something ascomplicated and imported conference of and important as conference of tax reform. These things intertwined. The removal of certain provisions, the way you are structuring the bill right now, would have a detrimental impact in f through entities on passthrough entities in my district and across the country. It is no more true than in farm country. Many are struggling on the margins right now. With the elimination of 199, but even beyond that, the removal of like kind exchanges, crucial in farm country. The net loss operating fallback, so that farmers can take losses and offset taxes theyve already paid. It is crucial to their house full their cash flow situation. We are hearing rumors that land rental income, vitally ported in vitally important in farm country, might come under the managers mark. I hope that isnt true. Instead of tax reform that would be beneficial to farm country, the way the bill is structured right now is literally a declaration of war against our family farmers. That is problematic. I encourage my colleagues to adopt this a minute. Time is expired. Seeks else who recognition . The questions on a glinting in offered by mr. Kind, all those in favor signify by saying know, no. Posed in the opinion of the chair, the nos have it. [inaudible] the chairmanship was youorarily upgraded, thank ms. Black, for that relief. Thetional amendments to amendment in the nature of a subsidy . Pascrell, mr. Kelly reserves a point of order. If the doom and will postpone while the amendment if the gentleman will postpone while the amendment is distributed. Mr. Kelly do you withdraw your point of order . You are recognized as big on the amendment. This is a Beautiful Day in washington, d. C. Here,hough there is chaos i came here 21 years ago to fight for the little guy. I learned that in the streets of patterson, where we learned beyond our catechisms and parents that everybody is equal, period. It is interesting to hear today, treasury secretary mnuchin just said, the president will have a tax increase from the republican plan. How the heck does he know . Of there the tax returns president of the United States . Thats what this amendment is all about. We are marketing of the marking of a tax reform bill negotiated between the Republican Leadership in congress and the white house, the president is assumed to have said two days ago, that you will like the senate bill better than the house bill. Already you are thrown under the bus. Because you are not seeing the president s tax returns, we dont have a full understanding of how this will benefit him and his family. My amendment will allow the tax bill to take affect once the ways and Means Committee obtains and reviews the copies of the president s tax returns. The republican tax bill lowers rates for businesses and individuals and would benefit the from family personally the crop family personally. In some instances, more than 1 billion. It is our responsibility to have a public conversation about tax reform policies and to the benefit. We know based on the twopage release of 2005 that President Trump would personally benefit by 31 million from changes in this bill, specifically eliminating the alternative minimum tax, despite his false claim of i dont benefit, i dont benefit. Another 16 million at the lower rate for half through businesses four passed through businesses, which all of his businesses are. The president s income tax rate would be lower by the average rate paid by families earning 75,000. The president s family could benefit by more than 1 billion due to the elimination of the estate tax. It is important that we guarantee wealthy individuals still pay their fair share in taxes. This full, uptodate tax he has would only show been accurately paying his taxes, yes or no. Formerports suggest that fbi director muellers leading the investigation into campaign ties to russia, has an irs investigation unit. The gentlemans time has expired. I opposes minute. L, did you say you would vote for the tax bill if you saw the returns . I would not vote yes. [laughter] hear thead to amendment means knowing what your next question . I will vote for the amendment. The gentleman from ohio controls the time. The committee has never been in the business of targeting any single individual. Hes not here and part of the discussion. It is amazing we are worrying about one individual when there are 30some people on the committee. Everyone in the house, everyone in the senate. Do you yield . No, i wont. ,ou start going down that path you might as well include everybody. I am still talking. I want to correct the record. Stop interrupting. Dont get angry at me. On too long. One wait until he completes his statement. We should not target one person. We should do what is best for the American People, what is best for the middle income hr1 does,which is what we should make sure they are getting a tax break, which is what it does, we should do our best to represent the people in the districts represent. Returnlity to look at information is a powerful oversight tool, it should only be used to ensure the code is properly administered, not to gone fishing expeditions. If congress uses power to rummage around in the tax returns of a president , what would prevent it to do that to average americans . Privacy and Civil Liberties are still important rights, and the ways and Means Committee is not going to start weakening them. Colleagues toy quit going down this path. We have talked about it and talked about it. We should not be focusing on zeroing in on any individual in this country, including the president of the United States. I urge my colleagues to opposes amendment and support the underlying bill. Any members was just become his amendment . I will yield my time. Pascrell. O mr. Yes, we have talked about this in the past. Mr. Mueller is not talking about it. The attorney general of new york is not talking about it, but they will eventually. We do not want to be behind the curve. For someone to talk to me and tell me that we should not be rummaging or going on a fishing expedition, that a six eckley what this committee chose to do just a few years ago when they went into 52 individual organizations and found absolutely nothing. You wrote the book on it, looking into peoples personal, committee6103, this along with the joint committee, alone with the Senate Finance committee, had the authority to do this. The law, itke of has been in existence since 1924. After the teapot dome scandal. The point of the matter is, we are providing our own scandals here. We have a right, the people in this committee, to examine those. I did not say make them public immediately, i have never said that. I started out asking you in a bipartisan way to do this. So you can point your finger back at me, you certainly have the authority and power to do that. When mr. Mueller is doing his job, we need to do ours, the ways and Means Committee oversees changes to the tax code. This committee has the authority to obtain and review the president s tax returns to see how he personally stands to benefit by the very situation you are voting on today. Isignore this responsibility a dereliction of duty. We as a congress, we as a committee, are the chief bulwark against the damage the man in the oval office can do unchecked. Lets start by doing our job and request his tax returns. By the way, if mr. Magician mnuchin knows, how come we dont know . I dont care who the president is, how come he knows . And less he doesnt know and he is just shooting off his mouth, that is a possibility. I dont know what the president s tax returns, where they will fall. I know what happened in 2005, which was only two sheep. Sheets. Were talking about hundreds and hundreds of sheets you must provide in all the standard deductions and materials you provide when you give your taxes in. Were talking about partnerships, loan, debt. , i askou, mr. Chairman you and i will ask you in the future again probably, please help us on this amendment. Help america. The dumbest time is expired. Anyone else wish to speak on the amendment . As much as this is directed for me as chairman, let me recognize myself to speak. I want to make it clear, this committees authority to request and make public and individuals tax return is a powerful oversight tool. It should be used only to in short our tax code is being ispily administered, being properly administered, not go on fishing expeditions. Our committee has never been in the business of targeting the tax returns of individuals and we are not about to start now. If you look at history, i think some of the worst moments of our history has been when the government uses its power to target americans based on their political beliefs. ,e saw in the Civil Rights Era in the protests of vietnam, in recent years where the irs targeted average americans based on their political beliefs. We are not going to get any government give any , republican or democrat, the power to target americans. Congress has the power, what is to prevent congress from doing the same to the average american . Privacy is still an important right. The ways and Means Committee is not going to we cannot. That. Ken we will set a dangerous precedent and will not do that. At the and of people will be impacted. I dont care about the president s tax returns, they care about their own. This bill is about letting them keep more of what they earn, helping boost their paychecks by getting the economy revved up again. Lets bring jobs back from overseas so people actually get a shot at jobs that have been lost. With that, the question is on a grinning agreeing to the amendment, all those in favor signify by saying aye, all those opposed no. The nos have it. Further proceedings on the amendment will be postponed. Are there additional amendments . , i havehairman amendment at the desk. If you would suspend for a moment. I want to make sure there are no more democrat amendments to this bill. Every democrat here has the opportunity to offer an amendment, the choice is to not offer any more, correct . Correct. Want, as promised, to give an opportunity to question mr. Barthold before we conclude. He was very patient and asking for and receiving the letter, and i want to review it. Morning, heit this asked that i provide all members a transcript of any comments he made this week, i asked staff to assemble that. The document being passed out reflects the transcript from monday and tuesday of this week in which he spoke. The transcript for wednesday is being processed and is not yet available. Are in order. As members know, transcripts of the state are unofficial. They have not been reviewed for accuracy, including by the members themselves, as is our practice. Oh discussions can sometimes be hard to follow. Mistakes can be made in transcription. For this reason, those numbers have not had the opportunity to correct potential errors in the transcript, and we do not allow quoting from the unofficial transcript. They are available only at our Main Committee office, and should not be posted on our website or in print. Blumenauer, i know you wanted to question mr. Barthol. thank you. , want to sort of clarify everybody has this letter, but this was apropos your letter, you have confirmed there was whether in error about allowed a deduction on taxes paid or accrued for trade and business in section 212. It would no longer be allowed as an itemized deduction. There was some confusion, i oldnk between what mr. Barth said and what the committee , it showed upance in the new york times, for instance. I would like to just have mr. Barthold clarify what the status entitiesr passthrough for the deductibility on their tax returns as opposed to how it is treated with individuals. , statutoryd in hr1 liquid provides the property taxes attributable to Business Property are deductible as business expense regardless of the business form, a passthrough entity or c corporation. Similarly, it provides sales taxes attributable to Business Property, business operations, are deductible, a business expense regardless of business form, a passthrough entity or c corporation. In the case of income taxes, state and local income taxes paid by an individual and allowed to be deducted under schedule a under present law are not permitted to be deducted by the taxpayer under individual. Eturn under hr1 in the case of a c corporation, state and local income taxes remain a deduction. You asked me yesterday the basis of our revenue estimate provided to you in the documents we provided to the committee. Our estimate hews to the description i gave you, or technique is clear in the statutory language, on page 103 of the amendment, the nature of substantive, where the amendment would amend present law, section sectionlines 24 and 25, 83, shall not apply to state and local taxes. , in the code it references income taxes. I believe the statute is clear on that. To the statutory language and our estimates reflecting what i just described. The joint Committee Explanation we provided to the committee in advance, i mustve been, was not clear on this point, for which i apologize. I probably further muddled his letter, they have talked this through and confirmed the language was in error. When you said at the language, im assuming it means the language in the descriptive document. That is correct, the language was not clear on that and in error. I can accept that as a description of the mistake. Corrected. Be the committee report, we try to correct every mistake. There is a lot going on and i appreciate the strain that you and your staff have to be under, camps here with us night and day. There is something going on on the other side of the capital. I have heard rumors. I would like to delve further with your permission. One of the concerns i had was the accuracy of the revenue at the estimates and whether or forthere was an opportunity the loophole to be exploited. A chain oflied you some of myon with favorite ask professors from law schools that indicate there is a that this tax could be characterized at the entity level and provide a tax credit back in effect, allowing local or state action to take place that would allow people to, in effect, deduct this for their income tax purposes. Have you reviewed that . We have discussed it i think thend committee typically grants the staff further technical drafting a 40. Authority. The intention is that taxes not be deductible. If i could expand for a second, i think the position to the is if an the outside state or locality could craft and income tax and does it at the level under most state laws. Is passed through. They are envisioning a state law perhaps facilitate a runaround. That is something my colleagues whether technical part of what is going on is we have a massive piece of legislation. Earlier, we are building the airplane where we are trying to figure out where it landed. I think we may find more moving parts. Serious issue that needs to be addressed. Does impose a tax , give a credit back, and be able to accomplish part of my concern in terms of the deductible. I dont want us to spend a lot of time. I have supplied every member of the committee with the information change referred to by professors indicating they think this is a real opportunity. They also have provided potential language. I think we just need to be clear about what it is. About the potential revenue loss and the equity involved. Thank you. Disagree respectfully with your characterization in the sense that it is regular to offer the chairman a managers amendment. Sometimes the beginning, sometimes the middle, sometimes the end. This is not this routine but almost always occurs in later major legislation. It reflects the consideration we have heard from members on both sides. I dont know how he does this threat the air. Not just days but for full years now. Remarkablyrovided remarkable work with integrity and character and sophisticated areas. I dont know how they do it and their staffs have been doing amazing work for which i want to thank you. Out of the thousands of paragraphs they do, this is one third of a sentence while herbert verbal answers have been right on target. Taxes will continue to be deductible by the business. They have cleared those discussions. Say ite very kind to will be corrected. That is what you do when you are providing so many summaries are you catch something you corrected. I understand what youre doing. You have a right to do this. I have shared with you suggestions i would have liked to have seen which put less strain on all of us. You do what you have to do. Im not making a value judgment on that. I do deeply respect the hard proxy the staff on both sides of the aisle. Scrambling around, trying to cram this through in a record time. This. El at how people do what i have identified as a potential loophole could have grave consequences and there will be people as soon as this who will start looking at how they take advantage of the system. Disagree with that characterization but we will continue that discussion. Postponement. Er i want to be clear. This is important. I hope we zero in on what the consequences are. Ins could have been resolved two minutes tuesday or wednesday. I would hope in the future we can maybe just do what you and i have had before. Being able to identify and save the changes chain of activity. I appreciate your attention to trying to figure out what it means with joint tax and other people on the committee so people are not surprised. We cannot leave this conversation without republicans tom forcrats thanking extraordinary work for our nation. Thank you very much. At this time we will consider the postponement amendment vote. The clerk will call the roll. Johnson. No. Mr. Nunez no. Mr. Reichert now. Mr. Raskin no. Mr. Buchanan know. Mr. Smith in nebraska. Mr. Smith no. Ms. Jenkins no. Mr. Paulson no. Mr. Marchant no. Miss lacks no. Mr. Reid no. Mr. Kelly know. No. Renee c holding no. Missouri no. Mr. Rice. No. Schweikert miss lauras you know. Mr. Cabello no. Mr. Bishop no. Yes. Eil mr. 11 yes. Mr. Lewis yes. Mr. Docket yes. Mr. Thompson yes. Mr. Blumenauer, mr. Kind yes. Mr. Davis. L ye. Oubt ar mrs. Sewall aye. E. Aye. Mr. T berry no. Mr. Press grell. Mr. Crowley. Chairman brady no. 14 yes and 24the amendment is not agreed to. The clerk will call the roll. Mr. Johnson no. Mr. Nunez no. R. Tiberi mr. Reichert no. Mr. Roscoe no. Mr. Buchanan know. Mr. Smith of nebraska no. Ms. Jenkins no. Mr. Paulson no. Mr. Mark sanford no. Miss black. Miss black no. Mr. Reid no. You mr. Renee c mr. Holding no. Mr. Smith of missouri no. Mr. Right now. Mr. Schweikert no. No. Lore ski mr. Korbel oh no you mr. Bishop no. Mr. Neil yes. Lewis yes. Mr. Doggett yes. Mr. Thompson yes. Mr. Larson yes. Mr. Blumenauer yes. Mr. Kind. Farmers,e sake of the aye. Mr. Pas grell yes. Mr. Davis yes. Ms. Sanchez yes. Mr. Higgins yes. Mrs. Sewall yes. Mr. To burya no. Brady no. 16 yes, 24 no. Not agreed to. Thank you. Theuld have voted yes on first one. I was on an emergency call. I also was not present for the first vote. I support the amendment. The question is on the amendment and the clerk will call the roll. Mr. Johnson no. Mr. Nunez no. Eight now. Mr. Reichert no. Mr. Buchanan know. Mr. Smith of nebraska no. Miss jenkins no. Mr. Paulson no. Mr. Marchant. Miss black. Mr. Read no. Mr. Kelly know. Mr. Holding no. Mr. Smith of missouri. Mr. Smith no. Mr. Rice no. Mr. Schweikert no. Miss lore ski no. Mr. Korbel oh no. Mr. Bishop no. Mr. Neil yes. Mr. Levens yes. Mr. Lewis yes. Mr. Doggett yes. Mr. Thompson yes. Mr. Larson yes. Mr. Blumenauer yes. Mr. Kind yes. Mr. Pas grell yes. Mr. Davis yes. Ms. Sanchez yes. Mr. Higgins. Mr. Hagans yes. Ms. Sewall yes. Mr. Merchant no. Chairman brady no. The clock will call the roll. Will report the vote. 16 yes, 24 nose. The amendment is not agreed to. Are there any other amendments . Majority i amhe prepared to offer an amendment through regular order in order to ensure our tax reform bill creates a tax code that is fair and simpler. It grows jobs, paychecks, and leapfrogs america back into the lead. These four days of markup have been extraordinary. Four days of thoughtful consideration, a number of amendments. Most of this occurred 2 00 in the morning. So the American People can be part of this debate as well. All of this stands in contrast to the treatment Democrat Friends provided when they pursued the Affordable Care act. The amendment i am prepared to offer is 29 pages long. Pages ofst to the 300 commitment you Committee Amendments resented with no time to study. I am prepared to recess this committee until 1 50 so that our run minority friends can review the managers amendment and begin consideration. Mr. Chairman, you are suggesting that after having had no hearings and no witnesses that we are going to have 20 minutes to review the 63rd page considering what happened monday night as well. Ive got to tell you. Look, you have given us 300 pages with no notice. We managed to handle it. Are we suggesting this ought to be to four tet tit for tat . This is extraordinary regular order throughout all of the amendments. The ability for full debate. Ive asked repeatedly if you want more amendments. The answer is no. You havent seen it. You offer 300 pages. When . When did we offer 300 amendments pages . With no time to review. In regular order. Willis time the committee recess. Where is the amendment