Washington journal continues. Host Jake Sullivan joins us now. He previously served in the Obama Administration and he recently released the world after trump. First, explain what we mean when we are talking about the international order. What does that include . Guest it is not world government, a group of people calling the shots for the United States or anyone else. It is a group of sovereign states, the world and fall, led by the United States, who built the world after the end of the aroundworld war alliances, the United Nations system, a system to deal with international and comics and finance, and the basic purpose of this set of institutions and partnerships is to manage disputes so we do not get into wars, to mobilize cooperation to do with challenges like Climate Change and nuclear floor affiliation, and set standards around aviation or Maritime Security so that we are all working off of the same page in a world where there is so much interconnection in the country. It is changing. In the years after the second world war, the locusts of cooperation centered around the nato, theions like world bank. Today because things are so much messier and more complicated, there is a much more informal and diverse set of institutions. You have the paris climate agreement on nuclear nonproliferation, you have world powers coming together in an informal way to deal with the nuclear challenge. Global health, it is no longer just the world health organization, but now publicprivate like Global Alliance and vaccines. Of what today and part the United States has done is taken ingenuity and flexibility and created a set of institutions. The march april issue of foreign affairs, the world after trump. You say there is no doubt trump represents a meaningful threat to the health of the american democracy and the international system. How so . American democracy, what trump as basically suggested over the year and the office is that Traditional Democratic institutions, normal checks and balances, those are inconvenient to him and obstacles he ought to be able to push over. Basicain set of democratic norms, starting with fundamental, which is that truth matters and the sense that you have got to make an argument based on facts, it is something he has attacked on a daily basis, suggesting that everyone can have their own reality, very hard to have a ineffective democracy in a case like that. What trump has argued over time is a world in which everybody basic he just looks out number one and no one looks out for their neighbor, that the united globalshould think of problems in zerosum terms. If we are gaining in someone elses losing, that is good even if over all, everyone is getting relatively worse off. What i thinkway has been the most important principle of American Leadership , which is the United States can do better and other countries can do better and that we, uniquely among Global Leaders in the past few centuries are committed to a principal in which we rebuilt our vanquished enemies. We did not just leave them there in the rubble. Interest in our self per trump sees self interest but does not see the enlightened part. Host you have a lot of confidence in the article in the resilience of the national order. What is it based on . Guest three things. First, as much as it is commonplace now for International Relations experts to say the rest of the world is moving on and leaving the united United States to decide and they want something new and different, the fact is most countries in the world have seen that they have in a fitted from a global order the United States has led, and they bought into it and continue to even now. That applies to china, who makes a lot of noise about wanting to ted to the rest thesere principles and institutions i have laid out. We have managed the transition from the formal institutions to more flexible and practical approaches. Better than people think. On climate, proliferation, trade, things like managing the outcome of the Global Economic crisis and making sure the recession did not turn into a global depression, this has worked better than people think. Finally, trump himself has not been able to do that level of damage that he threatened to do on the campaign trail because he found himself constrained by congress, his own National Security team, and sometimes reality. Host we have got about 25 minutes to unpack it. Us, aullivan is with senior fellow at the endowment for international peace, former nationalist National Security adviser to Vice President biden, served in the Obama Administration is director of policy planning at the state department, and he penned the world after trump in the latest issue of foreign affairs. As folks are calling in, i want to point to another part of your essay. You specifically say the world order can survive one term of trump, but you go on to say President Trump must not be handed another term. The difference might not be one time versus to, but one time versus 10 times. The reelection would confirm trumpism is the new normal the how do you see that . Guest i think a world in which the United States lays a key leadership role in which we are mobilizing cooperation around major issues and driving the conversation about the rules in benefits that world america and americans and that is what we have to fight for. What concerns me about going from one to two terms of trumps right now, many of our allies and friends around the world are demo attic partners, countries that share our values and worldview, they are putting their heads down and say maybe we will get back to an america that leads from purpose to principle. If trump is reelected, many of those countries will say things have radically changed and it is a different ball game and they have decided they will no longer play the decisive leadership role in the world and now we have to look elsewhere, maybe to , to ourselves, to take matters into our own hands. That isthe u. S. Say fine, let everyone else still their own problems for a while but when it comes to it, if you do not help set the table, you are likely on the menu. Think the United States should play the leadership role at the head of the table. Why it is important we do not tell the rest of the world trumpism is the new normal. In lancaster, california, go ahead. Caller good morning. They start of the storm in libya and egypt where they were throwing rocks, and then you armed them. You created isis out of it. Moneywondering, how much in you lose over there supplies, 6 billion that you left over there, buying new military equipment and supplies fourof that crisis isis . For isis . Wasnt the United States, the state department or the Obama Administration starting the arab revolutions you refer to. It was just arab citizens pulling out into the streets in huge numbers. Thousands, tos of protest governments and dictatorships. Led to the overthrow in egypt and it led to other significant changes in the region. Some positives, many negatives. I do not think the u. S. Approach to the aftermath was by any means perfect. We made mistakes to be sure. At the end of the day, i believe the United States should stand up for principle that people around the world have the right to selfdetermination. What Ronald Reagan believed, what Franklin Roosevelt believed. That has not been a democratic or republican principle but an american one. We can learn from our mistakes in the middle east. ,he most fundamental of which was fighting that war in iraq, which we should not have done. We are still dealing with the aftermath of that today. I think prudent, sensible policymaking should involve the United States not putting as much of its own money and personnel and material into the region, but rather trying to drive Diplomatic Solutions to the problems in the region. Host providence, rhode island, jack is a democrat. Caller im a conservative democrat. Leftist elitist like this sullivan. Host lets not call names. What is your question . Caller all right. Here it comes to my wife is chinese and i will talk about the Korean Peninsula here. You know the obama and Clinton Administrations were perfect when they doubt with north korea. Nowave got a problem right thanks to bill clinton giving them billions of dollars. The north korean government, conned the Clinton Administration, giving them all that money, and they put it in their pockets and then they built nuclear forces. Coinhey are almost out of or they could talk cities in the country. Months away, ok . Thanks to the clinton and obama and the bushns, administration. Host what is the question . This and menstruation will have to do with it because they do not want them to target u. S. Cities. Guest thank you. I appreciate that. My view on the United States being a Global Leader and playing an Important Role in the world and being the one to help set the agenda and drive out positive outcomes for our people, it came from growing up in a middleclass how household. I grew up in the cold work turn Ronald Reagan and i agreed with him when he said america could be a shining city on a hill. I believe that still. I do not think there is anything elitist about a proposition that the United States can have a principled and effective Foreign Policy in the world in which we are rallying our friends and allies to solve the great problems of our time. Nothing inconsistent with that and wanted to stand up first and foremost for the interests of the American People p or north korea specifically, i think you are partially right actually, that the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration and the Obama Administration did not succeed in solving the problem. The Trump Administration has had to take on a challenge that three prior president s could not solve. I have great sympathy for them because it is a difficult issue. I disagree in that i do not think the north korea cant bill clinton in 1994. I think they have a diplomatic framework that could work. We lost that during the Bush Administration. Was the time north korea began to finally test weapons. We have to get back that blueprint. It will not be a perfect diplomatic outcome but we need a figure out how to avoid catastrophic war on the Korean Peninsula on the one hand or north korea having the capability as you just said to be able to effectively target American Cities with nuclear weapons. The third path will require diplomacy and the diplomatic totallynot of us are but that is what i hope the Trump Administration is working on. Host your home state, we will take you to minnesota, independent, go ahead. But that is what i hope the Trump Administration is working on. Host caller good morning cspad america. I was born in many net in minneapolis. I am calling on a couple fronts. One is, jake, i have seen you all over the place. If you know anything about being a statesman, you would understand you do not go around all over, with the kind of bad talk you are talking about our president here that is my first point. My second point is you probably the that button with russians. That is just a side note. What happened in libya . How many beheadings happened in libya . Hillary clinton said we came, we died. If that is leadership, bullying and violence, you should not be a part of our state department or any foreign affairs. Thank you. Yout first of all, thank for a fellow minnesota and, for your views. I think of we sat down and had a cup of coffee in minneapolis or somewhere else, you would find we agree a lot more than we disagree on all of these issues. Degree tod with the which i should be directed my views and concerns about this president. I believe deeply in bipartisanship in this country. I do not think we will solve anything without democrats and republicans worked together but i believe donald trump represents a unique threat to our institutions and democracy so i cannot stay silent on that weird i would like to get back to a place where there can be a republican president in the toure who i would be happy not fully support as a democrat but to stand behind and want to step up for. , notis about trump generally about republicans. On libya, i would say what we faced in 2011, when the crisis started, was a combination of factors. Number one, qaddafi was heading toward benghazi where he was threatening to engage in mass slaughter. Our closest allies in the world were asking us to bring our