Being here with us. We have had a chance to cool down. A few minutesmess ago. Good afternoon. Im the politics editor at ask ios at axios. Welcome to the festival and our oneonone with susan rice. We have an hour together. Minutes forclude 15 questions and answers so you , have 45 minutes to think of killer questions and i am , looking forward to hearing them. You all know ambassador rice. She served as president obamas u. N. Advisor and the National Security advisor. Previously, as the assistant cemetery of state for African Affairs under the bill clinton administration. Bookay also now she has a coming out soon. It is tough love my story of things we are fighting for. It is not out for another week and a half, but you can get it today and they will be signing copies of it after we are done here. I think that is at the festival hub at 800 congress. They asked me to let you know. You can do that after this. This book, because none of you have read it yet, let me give you a preview. It is a book in three parts. It is a book about ambassador rices personal story, her family life. It is a book about her experience in government. And that is a book about the Obama Administration and her andcies and her explanation thoughts in the Rearview Mirror about some of those thoughts. To me, one of my favorite parts about this book was the personal chapters and i want to spend , some time talking about that. But because it is friday and a in the end of a very historic news week, i want to talk about the developments this week with the ukraine and the houses houses actions on opening an inquiry into impeachment, and things like that. And then i will. And then give us some time to i will give us some time to talk about the book. You have closely followed everything that has happened this week, the transcript and the whistleblower complaints. I guess im curious to space on the information that is not publicly available. What would your next set of questions be . What do you want to know that we dont know yet . Susan thank you, margaret for , doing this. Good afternoon, everybody. I am delighted to come back to the texas trib festival. And thank you for that very generous introduction. What a week. And what a set of revelations. I think the most striking thing from my Vantage Point is that this is yet another particularly stark indication that we have a president who cares nothing for the national interest, and is all about his personal, political, and financial interests. In black andre white, in that remarkable transcript. To put this in context, as you know, ukraine has, for five years, been suffering from an invasion, an occupation by russia. That war is still going on. There are ukrainian soldiers being killed every week. And the United States, as a leader in the west and as an adversary of russia at this stage, by choice of putin, frankly, has been supporting ukraine economically, politically, and militarily, with assistance to help it combat this russian aggression. What President Trump did, it appears, is to withhold congressionally appropriated funds, almost 400 million worth of military assistance that the ukrainians desperately need in order to, it seems, to extort information for a bogus investigation that he could use against his political opponents domestically. It is an extraordinary interference in our democratic process, sponsored by, encouraged by, solicited by the president of the United States. And nowhere in that phone call does he talk to the new ukrainian president about the issues that have long concerned the United States, russian aggression, sanctions, how to support the ukrainian government. None of that. Elensky,l about what z the president of ukraine, can do to help donald trump advance his partisan political objectives. Host do you believe it is within a president s purview to use military assistance as a lever to prod policy action . Susan yes, if it is policy action in service of u. S. National policy interest, policy goals. The United States has leverage. We employ sanctions sometimes. We give aid, we dont give aid, but we dont do it to advance the president s personal political interest. And then we dont hide it. We do it openly and transparently and communicate to the world and the governments in question why we may be providing or withholding assistance. So what is so striking about this is that it was not utilized to advance our national interest. It was utilized to advance his personal, political interests. And frankly, this is part of a pattern. It makes you have to go back and review very carefully what we learned about 2016. And it makes you wonder about all of these other interactions that have seemed somewhat dubious, whether it is with mohammad bin salman of saudi arabia, or any number of leaders, from kim jongun to other adversaries that he has praised, and wonder what is underneath all of this. Host there are internal transcripts or notes from us all of those calls were meeting, if not all of them. As a former National Security advisor, im assuming you have always advocated the importance of the president or other foreign leaders being able to have a modicum of privacy in their conversations, so they are not to be made fully public so that there can be room for actual conversations. How do you balance those two for thes, the precedent need for president s for leaders to have internal deliberations that are not entirely shared with the public, versus what you are talking about here. Are you advocating for the transcripts or notes of President Trumps calls with mbs, with putin, with cc to all cash with sisi, to all be released to congressional investigators . Susan obviously, in normal times, there is utility in the communications between foreign leaders having a measure of confidentiality. These are not normal times. What is unprecedented is the president of the United States abusing his office. That is what is unprecedented. I care about all of these things you mentioned, but i care more about what we dont yet know about what the president of the United States has done behind closed doors that runs counter to u. S. National interests. And this ukraine example is the perfect case. And recall the other problem. The other problem is, according to the whistleblower report, that instead of this transcript, which by the way, we have not seen the full verbatim transcript. And normally, there is a full, verbatim transcript, it would appear. What they did, instead of storing it in the normal system, which is protected and classified, even though there was no classified substance in that actual discussion instead , of putting it where it hid it onesides, they a very, highly sensitive and compartmented server that very few people in the u. S. Government to have access to, in order to bury it. They would not have put it there unless they were legitimately and their contents classified. [inaudible] susan of course not. But it is rare that a president ial conversation would be classified to the highest level. Is not impossible, but very rare even when two leaders are , discussing classified information. Here is a case with there was nothing classified, and it was moved to the most secure, sensitive server. Host the contents of those notes would never have been moved to that classified system . Ok. I want to ask you another question before we get out of this. That the white house or the nsc ever have concerns about Vice President bidens dealings in ukraine, dealings that President Trump has now raised as an issue. Was that ever an issue or serious concern inside the administration . Susan now. No. And let me explain why. There is an extreme distraction play here, to try and conflate what biden did at obamas behest for transparent policy objectives, pushing back on corruption in a country with a country where the United States and its allies were providing millions of dollars of economic assistance and trying , to bolster this nascent democracy in ukraine. Vice President Biden made phone calls and took trips in support of that u. S. Policy objective. It was transparent, it was stated openly, it was backed by our western partners and the imf. There was no secrecy about it. There was no hiding of the records and transcripts. It was all the basic work of diplomacy. To suggest that there is some equivalence between the president of the United States, this president , tromp, extorting a foreign leader to advance his partisan, personal interests and the Vice President or president of the United States, in biden or obama, pursuing a policy that is open and transparent and backed by congress that was pursuant to our interests is , completely apples and oranges. Host before this past week, speaking about the book, i had asked you if you would take a short excerpt to read since , nobody in the audience has had the chance to read the book yet. That kind of sets is in the mood for your experience and the story you wanted to tell the public. Would you do us the honor . Susan thank you, i would be delighted. Let me explain what this is. As margaret pointed out, the book is it has really got four parts. First is my upbringing, my child history in part growing up in washington dc in 1970s, and the story of my parents and grandparents on one side, this the descendents of slaves in south carolina. On the other side, immigrants from jamaica coming to portland, maine in 1912. And what they shared in common was this extraordinary commitment to education, to the american dream, arising and each generation bettering the next. That is the foundation in which i was raised. That it continues with a pretty bald discussion of my parents very painful divorce and the impact it had on me. The second part is after my education, my years in government, eight years in the clinton administration, and that is the section from which im going to draw an excerpt to read from you. And the third part is about my time at the u. N. , and the fourth part is my time as National Security advisor, which often includes stories of balancing motherhood and elderly, sick parents. What i would like to read is a story that is just, it is a small story that occurred when i was assistant secretary of state for African Affairs, where in i 1998, was a very young assistant secretary of state. I took the job at age 32. Most of my colleagues, the ambassadors who reported to me, were 20 to 30 years my senior. I was a brandnew, breastfeeding mother. And at first blush, not a particularly expectant leader of this bureau in the state department. We are on a trip in africa, with three of my colleagues, and we are flying angola,th africa to from victoria to rwanda, angola. It is about a fourhour flight. Let me take it from here. Such trips were intense and exhausting as we hopped on small, private planes. Commercial Airline Connections in africa were scarce, unreliable, and often dangerous. As an assistant secretary rather than a cabinet official, i did not rate a dedicated military leased fourcften or sixc propeller planes, fourseat or sixseat propeller planes which were vulnerable to , whether and mechanical challenges. It was a particularly memorable leg from victoria, south africa, to rwanda, angola. It required a refueling stop in rural namibia. We left early in the morning to arrive in angola by midday and go straight into meetings with senior officials. Along the way, we plotted our message to the angolans. The four of us sat close, almost toe to toe. Gail and i faced forward, with john and howard facing us flying , backwards on our tiny plan. It made for convenient conversation, but soon was too intimate. About an hour into the flight, i felt clammy and weak. As my perspiration increased, my stomach turned over, signaling it was quite discontent. I announced to my colleagues, im not feeling well, and reached for the airsickness bag, which thankfully was handy. With muffled apologies, i opened the bag. Apologies to you all is well. [laughter] and threw up voluminously. Suddenly, to my horror, i felt my lap growing warm and wet. The baguette a hole in the bottom [laughter] and i was covered in puke. My lightweight, rayon blue dress with white polka dots, once ready for a meeting with the president of angola, was ruined. And i would have no time to change before our meeting. Howard and i caught john, sitting there slackjawed and in shock, but canny enough to withdraw their feet to try to save their shoes from the vomit pooling beneath us on the floor. As soon as i finished being sick and realized the gravity of the situation, there was only one thing i could do, laugh hysterically. Kindly, as friends, they all join me in howling at the insanity of the moment. But we still have the problem of the dress, and the leader of our delegation being a smelly, unpresentable mess. We landed on a dirt patch in nvidia, nowhere, now may be a we landed on a dirt patch in nowhere, namibia, to refuel as planned. There was a single gas pump, a waterhole with hose, and some rudimentary bathrooms. The men gave us some privacy as gail turned the hose on me and my dress, spraying me down until i was thoroughly drenched in the desert. She and i then went into the bathroom to strip down and ensure we had washed away all signs of vomit. Confident we had succeeded, all that remained was for me to air dry over the ensuing couple hours. [laughter] [applause] welcome to high style diplomacy. [laughter] sounds fun working at the white house. Vomit on yourself, get hosed down and back to work. Both her parents died while you were working with the administration. I can relate, both my parents died while i was covering the administration. What were some questions you werent able to ask your parents anymore when you came up for air after a long time working for the government. Your dad was a test kiki airman airman, youre mother was a pell grant founder. How hard was it to find out that stuff and why did he want to share that stuff with the public . I know that the experience, your experience both going through the tragedy of benghazi as a public servant, and also your experience with how that played in the media and how many , americans know your name now wrong, was or for part of your motivation to write the book and introduce yourself to the public. But why did you want to share your personal story with the public . And what did you learn that you did not know about your parents . Susan let me begin by sharing what i did this. First of all, with this unusual background that i come from, and the extraordinary privilege i have had to serve two president s and our country in two different and to represent the United States in the world and to keep us safe, i feel like i have learned some things along the way from my family, from my , upbringing, from my service , that i want to share. That i think are valuable broadly to people who are trying to compete and thrive in unforgiving environments. And if they have been knocked down, to get back up. But personally, i felt that for the years between benghazi in 2012, when i was characterized by the right as a villain and by the left as a victim, that i was really unable, until i left government, to do anything other than speak for the United States and the president. I did not have the ability to speak in my own voice and tell my own story. And that rubbed me the wrong way, because as we might discuss, one of the critical lessons we learned from our parents was not to let anybody define me for me. That i had to be my own advocate, my own champion, and my own spokesperson. And that overlays with some lessons on race, which we can potentially come back to. So if i was going to tell my own story, and i wanted to, i had to be honest. I had to tell not just this is not a book for selfpromotion, running for office, some other kind of thing. If i had, i would surely have written an unorthodox book. This was a book to tell my story in all of its dimensions. And that require talking about the painful stuff, but also enabled me to go back and spend time dissecting and excavating some of these chapters in my life, going back to my childhood and my parents divorce in particular. Through torushed excelrying to strive and and do my best. It was a painful divorce, violent and terrifying. And it shaped me in many ways because i was a little sevenyearold trying to mediate between my parents and protect my little brother. I had wonderful parents. And and i had wonderful parents. These were highly devoted people highlyhey had accomplished, brilliant, devoted, who gave me and my brother everything we could hope for, but they had no business being married to each other. They broke up in a bitter way and put us through that experience in a very bitter, public custody battle and out of that, not only did i learn, for better or for worse, a Little Something about mediation and conflict resolution, but i learned that, you know, i could take a hit and keep going. I wouldnt let something that painful that early get me down. That was very valuable also down the road. You asked what i learned that i didnt know. Its interesting. I had a childs perspective on my parents breakup. With the process of writing this book, i actually saw the documentary records. We found in my deceased fathers papers the legal depositions my parents had to provide in the course of their battle. And nobody should ever read the legal depositions of their divorced parents, its not pretty. But it was enlightening because , i came to understand both their perspectives much more clearly and could digest them , from the Vantage Point of a grownup who is married myself and has children. So there was a lot that i learned. And im glad i had the opportunity to do it. Margaret your parents divorce was a foundational experience. You had another difficult experience, although you didnt know about it until later, i hope its ok for me to share this, it is in the book. You actually would have been a twin. You had a brother and he was stillborn. And you learned about that many years later. ]usan [sigh my mom and dad, as i said , one of the early indications they had no business being married. It was that my mother wanted kids and my father thought he didnt want kids and my mother got pregnant, and my father blamed her for tricking him. And i was the product of that first trick, so to speak. It wasnt a trick. And it turned out that my parents learned that my mother was in fact bearing twins. And they had been living in nigeria when i was conceived, long story, i wont go there yet, and they were making their way back to the United States from west africa, flying through paris. And they were on a plane crash, the plane took off, t. W. A. Airport, anderly instead of lifting off, it crashed nose down into the ground in, i guess, may of 1964. None of the passengers were killed. They all evacuated safely, including my parents, but it was a traumatic, emotional and physical experience for my mother. When they got back to the United States, she was on bedrest for much of the rest of her pregnancy. And when she came to deliver, my baby brother was stillborn and i survived. And i didnt know about that until i was 12. My parents, i think, had wanted to keep that from me until they thought i was old enough to appreciate it. But in the context of a heated fight that i was having with my i saidas a 12yearold, something flip like, why do you always treat me worse than the others . And she heard that in combination with some other things i had said other the years, to suggest that i had some intuition that in fact i was a twin. And she blurted out how did you know you were a twin . And i said, what are you talking about . I had no idea. That was the first time i learned. About it was,ard i asked her, what happened why , did he die . And she said, you know, we dont know for sure. It could have been the plane crash. It could have been the pediatrician who wasnt paying careful enough attention to what was going on, i never had full confidence in him. It could have been that you were just the stronger of the two and that you consumed the lions share of the resources. And i heard that as, am i being blamed for the death of my sibling . I know thats not what my mother meant, but thats what i heard. And so that was a moment that i never really let go of. Margaret and it repeats itself over and over again, when you take somebody elses job as well, take someone elses work as well as your own, do you feel you carry that with you . Susan i dont know that i thought about it that way. I have known known from my childhood that i was a strong personality and a strong character, and that i had a lot of selfconfidence even from an early age. And i was an athlete, a tomboy. I threw around a few elbows when necessary, but i didnt associate that with taking from somebody else. Margaret not that you work margaret not that you were taking from your brother, just that you felt a sense of responsibility to go the extra mile . Susan i do feel that, but im not sure where it comes from. Margaret i found that story incredibly haunting, to read that excerpt. I think that was a lot to put into your book, i think. Were not going to have time to talk about this, so i want to share a glimpse of some of the passages in this book, because we have a couple of things we have to talk about. You told the puking story. Theres the time you gave Dick Holbrooke the finger. Highly recommend that passage. There was the decision you had to make about whether to attend john mccains funeral, given the course of your relationship in the final years, and why you decided what you decided to do. There are some interesting passages on your relationship with the former Russian Ambassador with the u. N. The late Russian Ambassador who compared the u. N. Meetings to porn. Ill let you guys figure that out on your own. Theres some tough lessons from south sudan and rwanda. Then there is the plot to attack president obama on a trip in 25th teen that i was onto ethiopia, that i didnt know anything about. And guess who else didnt know anything about it until they were back on the plane . Susan were in ethiopia in 2015. This is one of many president ial trips we took overseas. We had just come from kenya, which was president obamas first trip to kenya as president. Lots of enthusiastic crowds, as youll recall. In ethiopia, the first night we were there, after the state dinner, i went back to my bedroom, as usual, and planned to get ready for bed. There was a knock on the door and it was anita deckerbreckenridge, the White House Traveling chief of staff, deputy chief of staff, playing the role of chief of staff, im still in my gown, and she says youve got to come with me. , i didnt have my shoes on. Still had my ball gown on. And we go down to this secret service tent, you know how we have secure tents on these trips for communications. , and we go into the secure tent and in it is the head of the president s security, secret service detail, a number of other senior agents representatives from our embassy in addis ababa, who were on the Security Side of the embassy. And they wanted to share with me that they had just learned very reliably, that alshabab, an east african terrorist organization with links to al qaeda that carried out a number of attacks throughout east africa, had an active plot underway to attack president obama the next day, as our motorcade was leaving the African Union headquarters and making its way to the airport. You were in that motorcade. So was i. So we get this information, obviously we take it very seriously. I call back to washington to make sure that were putting all of our assets on trying to chase down this threat strain. Were in communication with the Ethiopian Security who are actually quite capable and efficient if also very ruthless. And they keep assuring us that they are following the suspect and they have the suspect under surveillance and that we shouldnt worry. And of course, we worried. So you know, we get to the next day, were at the African Union. The president gives his speech. Were about to get into the motorcade to head to the airport, and all of the ethiopian assurances that they have everything under control hollow, because suddenly the americans have information that suggests that the suspect is at large and on the streets on the route, by the , way, of the motorcade. So the president is hustled into a hold room. Hes getting increasingly frustrated, because he doesnt know why precisely hes being effectively detained by his own people in this hold room and prevented from going back home. And im in a meeting with the ethiopian Prime Minister and several of my colleagues trying , to underscore to the Prime Minister how concerned we are actuallyt we cant move the president until we get this resolved. My friend and colleague, gayle smith, who lived for many years in ethiopia, is on the phone with the head of Ethiopian Security and she is saying to this guy, weve got a serious problem. We have reason to believe this guy is on the loose. And he is like its not a , problem. And she is like it really, were , very concerned, its a problem. He said, its not a problem. And she said, how can it not be a problem where is this guy . , and finally the security chief says, hes with me at the , airport. And where like hes with you at , the airport . Yes, hes in my car. And im thinking hes buried in his trunk. Not getting out. And in fact, i dont know where in the car, i never asked. The secret service verified that this was the case at the airport and we were able to move the , president and you on to air one, and we took off. I dont know if you recall, we took off at the most extraordinarily steep ascent that ive ever been on except in a war zone. And that was, we were getting the hell out of dodge. And you all never knew. We told the president after wheels up, what happened in great detail. We had a few extra drinks on the way home. [laughter] margaret i read that, i was like what . , i was on that trip but i guess in a situation like that youre like is it safer to hang out in ethiopia or get him on the plane and get out of here. Susan once we knew the guy was in custody, we knew we could get out with relative confidence. But we werent going to hang around for nicities. Margaret im going to take you back to the spring of 2015, i know you dont want me to do this, but ill do it anyway. You are at the white house Correspondents Dinner which you , hate. Susan i hate. And i was honored to be your guest. Margaret thank you for coming. And someone is coming at you for a hug, which is weird, its a dark room, and you realize the person coming at you for a hug is donald trump. [laughter] and he wraps his arms around you and whispers in your ear, youve been very unfairly treated over benghazi, and you are doing a great job for the country. And and then he puts his arms around you and you pose for a picture. Susan thats a true story. [laughter] but there were a lot of awkward things about that, some might even say creepy. But i had my back to him, and he came up behind me. And i had never met him before. And i have actually never met him since. And he really sort of pulled me up out of my chair and gave me a hug. And it wasnt i dont want to misconstrue. It wasnt a gross hug. It wasnt inappropriate. Except for the fact that i didnt know him, had never met him before. But what was notable about it was what he said. Youve been very unfairly treated over benghazi, youre doing a great job for the country. Margaret were you surprised . Susan hell, yeah, i was surprised. Margaret why were you surprised to hear him say that . Susan in public, on twitter, hes talking conspiracy theory. And it was just six weeks later or Something Like that he declares his run for the presidency. And in every subsequent mention of me ive heard out of his mouth ive been a criminal, ive , been this, ive been that. Ive not been very unfairly treated. Nor has president obama. So what was interesting was the contrast between what he said in private and what weve heard , before and since in public. Margaret benghazi was a tragedy into thousand 12, ending the lives of several americans including a u. S. Ambassador. You wrote your mom told you not to do the sunday shows. She said i smell a rat. , softball question. Do you resent Hillary Clinton for sending you out there, on those shows . Susan no. First off she didnt send me , out. Is,ndly, the back story horrible week, we had lost four of our colleagues in a terrible tragedy. Many of our other embassies around the world had been subjected to violent attacks, demonstrations, its about 10 days before the opening of the u. N. General assembly. I am the u. N. Ambassador, and many of the issues that i work on from syria to palestinian , statehood to the iran nuclear issue, would be at the fore. And the white house calls me on on calls me on a friday afternoon and says you know, weve asked secretary clinton if she would go on the sunday shows, and were waiting to hear from her. But if she cant, would you consider doing it . We need somebody to go on. And i said well, call me when you hear back from her. A couple of hours later they call back and say shes not able to do it. And my assumption was that was because she was emotionally spent after a very wrenching week, tired, didnt want to do it. And they said would you please do it . And i said ok. It was not how i planned to spend my weekend. In fact, i was taking my kids the next day to columbus, ohio, for the ohio state foot game against berkeley, and my kids had never been to a big ten game. I was determined to take them and i did take them. , but on my way home from work i stopped by my mothers house. My mom, just a couple of months earlier had had a stroke, and after her fourth or fifth cancer surgery, and i stopped in to check on her. And we were having a conversation and i said, you know, she said what are you doing this weekend . I said im taking the kids to ohio state and then i agreed to go on these sunday shows, all five of them, at the white house request. She looked at me and she said what . Because they asked secretary clinton. She declined. I agreed to do it. Trying to be a team player. She said, i smell a rat. Go on theseot shows. I said, mom, dont be ridiculous. Ive done this many times before. It will be fine. And, of course, it wasnt. So ill be honest. Thatnk my mother had suspicion. But it wasnt mine. What i think perhaps my mother intuitively and maybe secretary clinton and tom and the National Security advisor and the other likely suspects understood better than i did was the first person who speaks publicly about a crisis, where details are unfolding, is inevitably going to have way,mation that in some shape or form turns out to be wrong. [indistinct conversation] [indistinct