Transcripts For CSPAN House Science Committee Hearing On Firefighter Funding COVID-19 20240712

First responders during the coronavirus pandemic. The house sign space and Technology Committee is hosting. You are watching live coverage on cspan. We can understand more clearly what we are facing. Significant n to local estate tax revenue. And other sources of support for Fire Departments. Facing some departments the hardest decision for firefighters in this crisis. We are in the middle of this health guide trips Health Crisis that at the same time the country is addressing longstanding racism. We are also in the early days of [inaudible] paul. Are not on mute, im sorry . [beep] ok. Thismain in the middle of health and economic crisis at the same time our country is confronting racial injustice. On top of that, we are in the early days of an honest wildfire hurricane season. This is a time of great uncertainty. , people are counting on us to ensure our First Responders have the tools and support they need to do their job well and safely. I look forward to Todays Congress andout help ensure these brave men and women have the resources to use. Now, i will recognize you for an opening statement. Thank you, chaired johnson. Chair johnson. Several members are per dissipating in todays virtual hearing and i can assure you we are all following cdc guidelines. In approving virtual hearings, the rules can be recommended that pennell committees mak accommodation for the safe and committees. Mamny of them many of the members are here today. Thank and urge my chairwoman johnson to accommodate the in person participation of members of the court. Meanwhile, i want to welcome and thank our witnesses for joining us today in our First Official hearing in three months. We are fortunate to have three of the nations top First Responders on the panel to discuss needs during the covid19 pandemic. Continues to spread in pockets around the country, our nations First Responders are the front lines and vulnerable to contracting the virus. Fire and medical emergencies dont stop during the pandemic. While Many Americans sheltered at home for the last few months, our First Responders do not have that option. To ensure they have the resources and equipment they need to stay safe, healthy, and on the job. Firefighters activity and funding are the primary responsibilities of state and local communities. For the past 18 years, the federal government has awarded competitive federal grants to organizationsnts, to address a variety of equipment, training, and other needs. They provide funding for equipment to ensure the safety of our nations First Responders. The departments maintain and increase the number of trained fighter fires in local communities firefighters in local communities. The Community Led reauthorization of these programs in recognition it was a National Interest to have wellequipped Fire Departments for a national emergency. We did not anticipate this. Who would have guessed but covid19 is now testing the nations Emergency Preparedness system . The cares act, which passed bipartisan lee, on a bipartisan basis, i understand the pain in processing those applications and we will be making awards in the next few weeks. I know thats not as fast as many of us would like, but the program is not designed to make it with rapid speed. We have witnesses from departments large and small. Oklahoma, kansas, illinois, all departments having different means. I look forward to their needs. I look forward to their input on how we can help the men and women on the frontline. I think when this is for being with us virtually and for their service to our nation. Madam chair, i yield back. Thank you, mr. Lucas. Are there other members who wish to submit an additional statement . Your statements will be added to the record at this point. At this time, i would like to introduce witnesses. Our first witnesses fire chief gary ludwig, chairman of the board of the International Association of fire chiefs. He is also the fire chief of champaign, illinois Fire Department. Prior to his service, chief ludwig served in the city of st. Louis for 25 years and retired as chief paramedic of the st. Louis Fire Department. He has also served 10 years as deputy fire chief of another Fire Department. After chief ludwig, mr. Roy sanders. 27,000epresenting over firefighters in the state of oklahoma, texas, and the panama canal zone. And was his fourth term first elected in 2004. President , he provides , withtations on resources r 300 thirdly, steve hirsch. He currently serves as chair of the National Fire council. Also the Training Officer of the Sheridan County fire 1, and glendale Fire Department, all of which are 100 volunteer Fire Departments. Currently serves as vice chair of the Kansas State Firefighters Association after serving as secretary from 2000 to 2018. Know, witnesses should you will each have five minutes for open testimony. Includedimony will be for the hearing. Appropriatethe testimony, we will begin with questions and each will have five minutes to question the panel. I will start with chief ludwig. You can begin your testimony. Chief ludwig thank you, and gooder onenoo afternoon chairwoman johnson and sting wished members of the committee. Im chief ludwig. Thethe fire chief of champagne Fire Department in illinois. The nations fire and ems departments are at the tip of the sphere in the fight against covid19. Sphere in the fight of covid19. This personal provides aid to every day every day to victims of covid19. Help themms personnel in their homes, provide aid and transport them to their hospital. Fire treats across the nation are working tirelessly to help their protective staff by supplying them with the necessary masks, and other lifesaving supplies. 55 fire and ems persons have died due to covid19. We are having trouble getting critical masks, gowns, and sanitizing agents. Our firefighters were not considered a high priority for ppe or testing, which led to quarantining firefighters while they awaited results. We are concerned we will run into ossicles obstacles for vaccines and develops. Budgets are getting crushed by the covid19 pandemic. When firefighters are exposed to covid19, we quarantine them for 14 days or until the test results come back. The cost of basic n95 masks and equipment has increased. Local budgets are squeezed do to stay at. This situation results in reduced services to counties and layoffs. Departments expect to suffer 16. 9 billion in budget shortfalls across the nation in 2021 as a result of the economic downturn. Approximately 1000 Fire Department personnel had been laid off already, and an additional 30,000 firefighters may laid off in the next 12 months. If there is a second wave of covid19 infections, firefighter departments will need assistance. The congress in Trump Administration this spring. The cares act included money for the a of g program, and covid19 programs. Requirements for 2019 and 2020 to make it easier for fire the performance higher firefighters. As a nation continues to fight the covid19 pandemic, the nations fire and ems departments need assistance. Fire departments need Financial Assistance to weather the economic storm and serve the communities. The heroes act includes 500 million for each programs. The funds will help Fire Departments urges ppe and sanitized equipment for covid19 response. A safer grant funds will allow other funds to rehire retain firefighters. The legislation weighs multiple options on supply for these funds. We ask the senate to pass these provisions and request 15 million for the Grant Program in hhs to help rural ems. They must be Top Priorities for receiving ppe and sanitizers. The Administration Must Work Together to ensure a supply chain that delivers necessary equipment to local Fire Departments. Fire and ems departments must complete compete for supplies. Chinese counterfeits are flooding the u. S. , creating confusion. They must be a top priority for testing and vaccines. In march, Public Health responders were listed as second and third level priorities. Given the shortage of covid19 tests, it was difficult to receive obtain tests for firefighters. Congress should ensure fire and ems personnel are Top Priorities for distribution of covid19 response. Fire departments must me notified of drug shortages. The fda announced shortages are possible for medications used for covid19. Thatve not been informed Fire Departments need to know about potential shortages to work with state and local authorities to develop alternatives. Congress should support local whounteer firefighters provide their communities up with little or no compensation. They run the risk of exposure and being unable to attend their jobs. The house recognized this problem in the heroes act which would include taxation of state and local property tax, and up to 600 and other incentives for volunteers. We support this provision. Congress should repeal the Public Safety t band. Many use the t band for voice coming occasions, for example new york city, los angeles, required coordinations to coordinate 911, law enforcement, response to covid19. The heroes act repealed the t band auction. Forlosing, i think you holding todays hearing on fire and ems response to covid19. [inaudible] to help us fight this unseen enemy. I look forward to working with you to support local fire and ems departments. Thank you again. Thank you, mr. Ludwig. Thank you, chairwoman johnson. Mcgee, and imy the district 11 Vice President from the International Association of firefighters, representing more than 27,000 professional firefighters and emergency medical personnel in oklahoma and texas who serve as front line workers in our nations Public Health response to the covid19 pandemic. Providers,are firefighters and emergency medical personnel are often the workers in physical contact with covid19 patients. The nature of their work requires they be in close proximity to patients in uncontrolled environments. Responders performing this dangerous work must be properly protected, both to limit the spread of the virus itself and to ensure they remain healthy and able to serve their community. In far too many places, we are relying on firefighters, paramedics, and emts to respond to work without the proper protection. Even today, several months into the pandemic, Fire Departments across the country are reporting a shortage of all types of ppe. In texas, ppe shortages can be found in communities of all sizes. According to the Texas State Association of fire and emergency districts, two thirds of Emergency Service districts are concerned about a lack of ppe, and half an inability to procure ppe has already affected responders. In dallas, firefighters are using reusing n95 masks many times, practice which we know reduces their effectiveness and places the firefighters and the public at risk. At the same time, the Fire Department budgets have been hit hard with the current economic crisis as local governments face decreased tax revenue and other fiscal pressures. This is particularly true in states like texas and oklahoma, which rely on sales tax revenue to fund public services. As a result, many Fire Departments face deep budget cuts with some already forced to lay off and referral firefighters. My hometown of tulsa, oklahoma relies primarily on sales taxes to fund public services, the economic slowdown on the part start of the pandemic led to a drastic reduction of the city. We expect a budget shortfall of over 2. 7 million. Layoffs and furloughs are uniquely challenging as we continue to deal with the covid19 virus. As firefighters experience high risk exposures to infected individuals, they are put in quarantine or isolation. Placing stress on the department and maintaining full staffing making maintaining full Staffing Levels that much more important. They provide a lifeline to departments facing such challenges. We are grateful congress provided 100 million through the cares act to help local Fire Departments if they needed ppe and related and related supplies. We know Fire Departments will continue to have significant unmet needs in the wake of the recession. We are pleased the house included an additional 500 billion in fg and 500 million to hire, retain, and rehire firefighters in the heroes act. Givenepartments should be waivers from certain statutory requirements to allow those departments with budgetary challenges the flexibility they need to obtain necessary equipment and personnel. Departments should be allowed to use funds to retain or rehire firefighters. Granteeselieve safer should receive waivers from budgetary requirements, including performance, cost share, maintenance of expenditures, and funding caps. We also support budgetary requirements under afg, particularly of a local cost share and expenditure requirements as well as funding caps. These waivers will help Fire Departments save thousands of firefighter jobs and ensure firefighters receive personal protective and decontamination equipment they need. Absent these waivers, the restrictions of the programs will likely dissuade Fire Departments safety. Those departments which need funding the most from even applying from grants, potentially allowing district funds to go to waste. I would like to think the committee to thank thank the committee for the opportunity to testify today, and i will answer any questions you have. Thank you, mr. Mcgee. Our third and final witness is steve hirsch. I recognize mr. Hirsch. Chairwoman johnson, Ranking Member lucas, and members of the committee, my name is steve hirsch. I serve as chairman of the National Fallen tear fired counsel fire volunteer fire council. This represents the and rescue services. Of them, i want to thank the committee for the opportunity to talk about the challenges related to covid19 and that the Grant Programs can play in helping meet these challenges. I am one of 745,000 volunteer firefighters in the United States. That represents about 67 of the nations firefighters. All and mostly volunteer Fire Departments account for 82 of the nations Fire Departments. And protect 32 of the nations population. My remarks will focus on the covid19 impact, especially in smaller communities where volunteers are most common, and how the afg and Grant Programs can help. I could not be prouder of our volunteer firefighters and ems providers in being the leader of this organization that represents them. Survey andn a bfc nvfc. We find 62 of the respondents overall reported they are running low on personal protective equipment or ppe while 23 report they have run out completely. 46 report they have staff who are unable or unwilling to respond. 50 report the inability to recruit new volunteers to be a significant problem. Report not being able to fund raise is being a major challenge to their department. Train, recruit, and fundraiser overlapping issues that typically involve facetoface interactions with covid19 interactions that covid19 has curtailed. Our primary concern is giving out personal safe. From the end of march to the end were 50 covid19 related fatalities, including 15 identified as volunteers at this point. Fire and ems personnel are at a heightened risk of exposure, and it is made worse by the lack of ppe. Volunteer fire and ems departments have been forced to reuse disposable ppe, and in many cases, repurpose other items to serve as makeshift ppe. As has been noted, congress provided 100 million in afg funding in the cares act from the purchase of ppe related supplies. The cares act funding will help address ppe shortages for the hardest hit Fire Departments across this nation. Many Fire Departments will be helped with this funding, based on the number of anticipated reports, less than 5 of the nations Fire Departments will be likely to receive an afg grant. The reality is more funding is desperately needed. Passed thethe house heroes act, which provided an additional 150 Million Dollars 500 million for ppe purchasing and additional 500 five hundred thousand dollars for ppe purchasing and an additional 500 those associated with those are safer. s supporting of the local match without these waivers. Many Fire Departments need the most would not be able to accept grants. Language that of would eliminate in the law a requirement volunteer Fire Departments receive 25 of the appropriated funding. Forsetaside of 25 volunteer Fire Departments ensures volunteer Fire Departments are mostly competing for funding against other volunteer agencies. Changing this, i believe, hurt volunteer Fire Departments ability to get grant funding. One of the major challenges fema funding under cares, was that they were in the middle of the fy 2019 grant cycle. Fema is now online to do. Use remotely to do ews remotely. The Grant Application periods are typically open for a month each, which requires the department to develop a narrative and puts together an application that has a decent chance of getting funded. Feed speeding up the grant schedule without reducing the complexity will result in fewer applications being submitted, especially from smaller Fire Departments. And as you have heard across the nation, there is an acute revenue shortfall, a combination of increasing cost from covid19, reduced support from local governments, and an inability to fund raise. Money put, we need more for our mission. Pandemic, volunteer Fire Agencies have stepped up in an amazing way to help other communities. I say amazing, thats what volunteers do. They step up to the plate, time and again to protect their communities and neighbors when they needed the most. I would like to thank the committee again for the opportunity to testify and i look forward to answering any questions you might have. Thank you. At this point we will begin the first round of questions. But first i would like to ask on andch person keep i will have the staff help us determine how to acknowledge the next speaker. This but at this point i will open up five minutes for question. This is helped Fire Departments obtain equipment and staff for many years, and you are all dedicated to needs that are already great and growing and has been chronically underfunded to meet these needs. Covid19, and Emergency Partners across the country with unprecedented stress. Congress did provide 100 million of funding in the cares come fromof it will the federal government, but if it came from states and local jurisdictions, will be the consequences if we failed to provide emergency funding to Fire Departments in the coming month. I will start with any of the witnesses that would like to begin to respond. I can speak for the volunteer fire service, certainly. Has to dotee , chicken feeds, pancake feeds, just to survive. A lot do not get tax revenue. Beenuld have be it has impossible to do those sorts of activities, a lot do doortodoor, for those communities who rely on pack support, those revenue stream have also weakened. Whether or not we will see any impact in my own district, because we are property tax supported is probably not can happen until next year, because most of those Funding Sources are set. The volunteer service, we 24y on recruiting volunteers , 365. 24 7 and we have not taken two months if we do notrocess have adequate funding, the system can potentially fall apart. Thank you very much. Mr. Mcgee, let me ask you about a standard of excellence has been operated for behavior and for treatment and recovery. Treatment offered to those with ptsd. Mental healthely, for First Responders is still and with the funding mayided from the cares act be used to assist, can you expand on how covid19 is impacting firefighters and how is she funding can help . Thank you for the question. Behavioral Health Issues have not stopped because of the pandemic. They have been magnified, with the pressure and stress that First Responders are under as they respond to the pandemic. Is issue we are having related to social distancing rules, and our ability to travel and go places and seek treatment. At our center of excellence facility in upper morrow brawl mar bro mar bro borough, maryland we are trying to find local areas and Treatment Facilities on a local basis for our members and firefighters to be able to the treatment they need. If we dont have adequate funding, those sorts of ifources are going to dry up we dont get the help we need for the behavioral help issues that are magnified by the response to the pandemic. The money andte the revenue that was made available. Thank you. The reason my time has expired im now going to recognize slowly but surely chairman, you will get retrained. I will turn to the panel for my first question, and your testimony you have all made different recommendations for the best way to distribute emergency supplemental funds. How do you recommend that congress balance the speed of getting the funds out the door with making sure that resources are going where they needed to go in a fair process . Any of the three . Certainly speak for the volunteer fire service. The Grant Programs have been administered by the u. S. Fire administration through fema and have worked remarkably well over the last 18 years or so. Well ison they work so s, otherdo peerreview firefighters sitting on the Grant Applications which has worked amazingly well. We are slow to be experts in this field and it has worked well. Now that they are able to do the peer reviews in a remote setting, i think those will move quickly. We truly support the current afer programs, the process is clear and transparent process, the funds go from into Fire Departments where there is a transparent and clear process which stays, and has been a proven system thats worked for multiple years. We support that process wholeheartedly. I dont have anything to add other than what my fellow panelists have said. With that i would note that its nice to have a fellow oklahoman on the panel, whether its kingfisher county, alfalfa county, we have had an ongoing set of fire challenges in the countryside and you are well aware of that area that. And you know that i represent the northwest half of the great state of oklahoma with many small volunteer fire and ems departments. Fortunate, have been we have had limited numbers of cases in covid19. What have been the particular have nots, because we faced anything like this in my lifetime. Thank you for the question. You are right, we have not faced anything like this in our lifetime. This pandemic has posed particular challenges to fire and ems departments regardless of their size. , as thehave found pandemic has unfolded in front of us is the availability of ppe varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some Fire Departments are better supplied than others. Some have sufficient ppe and others do not. That holds true whether its in a rural setting, a volunteer setting, or a metropolitan Fire Department. What goes along with this difficulty in obtaining ppe in those areas where it is difficult is response protocols. Sizetments, regardless of or location advantage develop protocols on the slide. Firefighters have done what we have always done, adapting to the situation in responding given the circumstances. Some departments are better situated than others. That comes down to local leadership or a jurisdiction issue. But that is also why funding is so orton. In stillwater, firefighters today are not permitted to wear n95 masks on a daily basis. They are mandated to wear surgical masks, which has a limited application. Not afforded the appropriate number of suits. They only get a certain number per rig. Situations,ds of they are all over the map and it depends on which Fire Department you are talking about. But those kinds of situations are not uncommon across the state. How does that track with what you are seeing in your departments nationwide . Similar, interestingly enough. Fire departments in southwest kansas are working hands and hands with departments in northwest oklahoma, crossing the lines with some frequency, because fires dont seem to know where the state line is. Come to my mind, rural Fire Departments are responding to Motor Vehicle accidents on the roadways and we dont know whether someone has covid or not. We have to take the proper precautions when we arrive and thats been a challenge, making sure that we have appropriate ppe, we have been fortunate to have barely any cases in our particular region, but we can never let our guard down because the primary thing is to protect our people. With the volunteers, and it does not matter whether you are in oklahoma, kansas, massachusetts, or alaska. They are leaving their jobs during the daytime and their families at night and are running the risk that they bring that theyeir family may not have a job if they contract this. And very small departments, if you get one or two contact tracting hope it 19 contracting covid19 you have a Fire Department or an Ambulance Agency shutting down, thats a big concern. Absolutely. With that, i appreciate the insights of our witnesses and i yield back. . Thank you. Thank you. Thank you madam chair, and mr. Lucas, this hearing has been very helpful. I have heard your testimony, all of you spoke about the need to eliminate the requirement and that is a barrier to getting the help to where it needs to be. I think your testimony was , i hopet and persuasive we can get that done is soonest possible. I would be remiss if i did not thank you for all you are doing for our country, each of you. This is a tough time, a challenging time for our country. And for First Responders who are up for our community, it is admirable and we are grateful. Californiaestion, in we worry not just about covid19 , but we are entering wildfire season. By the fire told center that its going to be a very hot, dry, drought type condition across the western United States. We are going to have above average wildfire potential. What unique challenges does covid19 present in fighting these types of fires . Have you thought through that . Is there advice you could give us . I can take that. Yes. In fact, the ifc head of the covid19 task force, we are looking at multiple issues impacting this. But one of the areas brought on was a member who was well experienced and was an expert on wildland fires. Because we do have concerns. We have Major Concerns about the fire season coming up. We need to protect base camps from infection. We have to worry about sheltering a civilian population will maintaining social distancing. We have to ensure that the local firefighters have enough and appropriate ppe to prevent infection. Theres also some consideration about transportation and the maintenance of the fire line walls. And as you heard, we talk about between kansas and oklahoma, the mutual aid between the jurisdictions as a result of the covid19. We have a lot of concerns about the fire season and we are returning to address this. Take, andeps can we could congress support, to provide tools to address those issues you just outlined . Is so important to this, because if we dont have the proper ppe, the things described about the exposure to infections, sheltering the civilian population while also trying to maintain social distancing requirements, those are all things that require money. Federal money is so important, to make sure that firefighters and civilians are safe. There was a discussion of the need of consistent protocols, that makes sense, not every place is the same, but is this an area where the National Fire Protection Association should be asked to develop some protocols that they could distribute to departments across the country . F has been utilizing every resource available as we develop protocols. The primary Governmental Agency that we have been relying on, to my understanding, is the cdc. Our recommendations have been following their guidelines organizationally as we assist our local affiliates. We believe that utilizing the federal government guidelines is and gives as a universal baseline to work. We think thats important. And finally, i was disturbed to learn that those who need Mental Health assistance because of the trauma they are able toring were not always get it because of travel restrictions and the like. Im wondering if there is a role to play, obviously the center is the Gold Standard for treatment, but is there a way to get people in need of treatment into more locally available resources . What can be done . I can just imagine repeatedly encountering the kinds of things that firefighters are encountering these days. They need support. Yes, they do. Prior to the pandemic we were working, and still are, on ways to make services more readily available to firefighters. One of the things that we found out is talking about behavioral Health Issues, and allowing a scenario for more affected individuals to feel safe and comfortable coming forward. We have not been able to develop programs to expand our footprint. Its more important now based on finding the right clinicians and resources that we can send our folks too, we are working on someit there are groundbreaking areas of concern and programs we are developing. But we are stillness development stages, we are not ready to rollout. Its a challenge. Madam chair, my time has expired, i yield back. Thank you. Thank you madame chair for holding this hearing. I appreciate very much the witnesses coming and sharing these details about what your needs are. I wish there had been a standalone bill. I think it would be through the house and senate. I dont know a Single Member of congress that does not appreciate our firefighters, i have several in my family. Recently, nasa has been working with private companies to help our nation respond to the covid and i forgot to turn my phone off. I apologize. There was one project he mentioned that nasa researched and helped develop a test, that product helps to decant to spaces. Econtaminate according to nasa, they have ispment and is a conducting Additional Research to maxima lies the effect of this product on covid19. Have you heard of it and are you aware of Fire Departments using this to decontaminate their gear . I have not heard of that product and im not aware of anyone using it. Im with sammy on that, i have not heard of that product and i cannot help you there. I would echo that as well. Buty next question is where. I might suggest that we ask nasa has someout, it redeeming qualities. In addition to the supplemental assistance of the firefighters grant, provided in the cares act, how has the u. S. Fire administration assisted fire them respondo help to the covid19 crisis . . I will answer that. I will answer that, the United States Fire Administration has changed through all of this, the chief has been superb and i spoke about the covid19 task force, we have a member of the United States Fire Administration sitting on their, providing us with expertise. And we were when we were suffering with the lack of ppe and getting issues through the supply chain, the administrator helped us bridge the gap with fema and we had an hour long phone call with the fema administrator about supply change supply chain issues that we were having for Fire Departments. I cannot say enough about the current fire administrator and the Current Administration about how responsive they have been. We hear so many conflicting reports about the administration, it is good to hear that things are connecting to where they should be from washington to the homeland. Say enough about the administrator and the staff. Thank you madam chair, i yield back. Thank you. Thank you chairman johnson, for holding this hearing. I want to start out by talking coordination. Of in my district, there are few Fire Departments that are putting together a mutual aid box. And i support your joint application for a supplemental grant, so they can continue approaches of procuring and sharing resources as needed. The social relationships also allow them to share best responds said that they to call together in their community, and it allows them to take the same basic precautions. Many departments work sidebyside and do not have a formal partnership. Im wondering if the witnesses had thought to share about the regional standardization of policy for the proper use of ppe. Congressman, im from illinois, like you. Im familiar with the mavis we also use best practices that have been recommended by the cdc and also the World Health Organization which has some best practices. We try to standardize our approach across the region and follow the experts leads. And i think the volunteer fire service has done much of the same for following the guidelines. Its a little more difficult in volunteer organizations, they andpremuch standalone dont have a lot of organization. A lot of us dont have that. Im not aware of any formal programs in my area but we are open to the idea of further. Iscussion another question i wanted to , i represent part of chicago but also have a lot of suburban number of have a smaller Fire Departments and Fire Districts. You have any do idea about how the smaller can beents and districts , its an issue they are asking about. Its an interesting question, and i thank you for the opportunity to address that. Certainly the need to be on thetive is reliant person who is writing the grant and there are ways of enumerating the value and getting the grant. One thing that i think would help as a type of grant writing program, or the process in which they could be schooled on how to write a proper grant because view under a peer re process. If its not well written or articulated or spelled out, that grant, even if its needed, might be rejected. I would recommend a program to help those writing the grants. That also highlights the need for keeping the 20 5 setaside for volunteer Fire Departments. Most of these people preparing Grant Application are people who work in a Grocery Store and car dealership the Farm Implement dealerships. They dont have a lot of time to do this and they do it out of love for their neighbors. Keeping that setaside is very important to volunteer services. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you very much. Mr. Weber . I think i have my microphone off. On and you can hear me. Thank chairman. Lots of questions, i know we talked about the inability to get ppe and we are dealing with a pandemic that we have never. Een before it was really interesting to be caught in this predicament. You have the federal government in the State Government and the local government and one of the lessons that i hope we have learned and i will let our witnesses way in weigh in, is that we need a Good Relationship between the federal and State Governments in this instance, more for the protection of their citizens because theyre closer to the cities and counties and the effects that are happening in their state. To the texased out department of management, they had a good supply. Thethe smaller can and even medium communities were not able to reach out at a level where they could get the ppe, because they were satisfying the larger communities. But i hope that we have all learned a lesson and that we have a better supply or communication chain or process where we go from the states, to the counties, to the cities certainly early on the supply chain was pretty weak. The folks that we would normally , it became rather expensive, and most of that was gone. I do not know that it is as major of a problem out in my part of the country as it has been because we just have not had the covid cases in this part of the world. I think Going Forward one of the things that will be important, at least in my own community, bought 10 or were 15 years ago became outdated because no one was really watching to make sure those items were kept up to date. I think that will be important, to make sure that we have a turnover of those supplies on a regular basis. I will echo what steve said. There were a lot of issues early on. I talked to fire chiefs who would bring rain cokes, whatever they could get because they needed something to protect their fire fridays. The National Stockpile was depleted early on ppe. Ie of our concerns, what heard from a lot was what was coming from the federal government into the states was being reprioritized. Firefighters were not in the priority chain. Health care workers, Home Health Care workers, people in hospitals were priority. I know several chiefs said conversations with officials told them that they were not the priority. Quite frankly, when we saw up the wonderful work being done by the tv by the nurses and doctors, how those patients got their was through the fire service. Somewhere along the line, the state level the prioritized us. I know in one particular state they received 2. 9 million masks, theyhen she told me that received 40 of those masks. Somewhere there is a breakdown when it comes to the federal governments and the states. And if i could just say when the federal government allocates funding for highway transportation, there is conditions attached could i am of the opinion that in the future the federal government issue ppe to the states, there should be conditions attached to fire and that is that the chiefs should have priority. I do not have much to add other than what gary and steve has said other than the iff as identified the priority of firefighters as being an issue and has been working with congress to raise that level of priority. You are 100 correct that the lack of priority in the supply chain caused a lot of issues early on. There are still some of those issues today, but not as bad as they were because of a priority. That is why i think it is important as you said that we have a Better Process identified in the eventuality this happens again, or as we deal with this endemic. I i will close by saying think we are expecting it to come back in the fall, and i that you will be elevated to the priority need you be. Especially our hospital workers, them included, and some of the you for alls, thank of what you do. Madam chair, i will yield back. Thank you so much. Funding for the that equipment was so desperately needed but certainly not enough here in oregon. We are worried about understaffed Fire Departments and because of the lack of ppe. I am glad to talk about this issue. About 1200 operating firefighters below recommended Staffing Levels. Oregon, almostst close to a Million Dollars have already been paid for equipment. Fullif they receive the amount, it will not cover half of that. Chief white told us they are preparing for a possible resurgence, and it would be extremely difficult when they are still trying to figure out how to cover the expenses they have already incurred. I share they comments about the mask requirement, but even if the supply chains start to normalize, are you concerned that departments might not be able to purchase ample ppe because of limited funding, and do they have access to some best practices regarding how distribute the supplies when we have unpredictable need over uncertain auto of time . The supply chain availability and the cost of ppe is important especially for these locations that we are talking about that are already cashstrapped. The reality that we are living in, where the equipment and the cost have been marked up is just unacceptable. We hope that those issues are able to be addressed as we move forward into the ability to respond. I know here in oregon as well as many places there is a strong provision that can be enforced, but we need to make sure that all of the firefighters have access to ppe as well as all of the frontline workers. I want to followup on the conversation in response to mr. Webers comments about how firefighters and emergency medical personnel are really the prehospital providers and often the first workers in physical contact with infected individuals. We know covid19 is affecting , people withcans Underlying Health conditions and people over the age of 65. I will start with mr. Mickey, what is being done to help make sure that Emergency Care needs of these communities are being met, and does funding through the fire Grant Program help to carethese needs and Urgent Required of these highrisk communities . Money asnly the grant it applies towards the purchase of ppe would be utilized in those communities as well, in every community. And thel of response type of response dictates the level and type of ppe that is required, so information coming from our dispatchers as they are responding to potential covid isients in highrisk areas in valuable information. That is why it is important for Fire Departments and agencies to Work Together so we can share that information and respond, so people can know what they are getting into so they can have the proper level of protection. That is the most important thing , is the information. Can we talk about the importance of this funding to meeting the needs of a particularly Vulnerable Community . Add that what is so imperative is the sacred funding. If you dial 911, if no one shows up, there is no one else to call. It is important that we have to thosele to respond who are in need, at highrisk. We are looking at a potential 30,000 firefighters being laid off over the next year. Safer funding would help that. We are just asking to retain those that we currently have two the safer funding. It would also help volunteer Fire Departments so they could use that for recruiting and retaining firefighters. It is important that funding be there as you asked. There was testimony about the issues of recruiting and how that is challenging because of the physical distancing and restrictions on gatherings. How is that going . We got significant problems in the number of volunteers across the nation anecdotally and statistically speaking. This early is not going to help that. We have seen a decline in the number of volunteers over the past 20 years, and this is have taken two months out of the process here. I will tell you that fire are amazing bunches of people who will make do. They will take the lemons and make lemonade, but we recruited people during the pandemic. We were doing, in my little Fire Department in remote kansas, we were doing zoom meetings every week in louisville in person meetings. We recruited people in that fashion. There are ways to do it, but recruiting is one of those 247, if you ever get behind the curve , it is all over, because you always have people coming and going. You have got to keep them coming in the front door. And i have rural firefighters here, and i appreciate the need to recruit and make sure we can keep all of our communities safe. I yield back. Thank you. Thank you, madam chair. I just want to say thank you to our witnesses for being here today and to our First Responders, our firefighters. I have tremendous amount of respect for the work these men and women do every day. As a representative of southeast texas, i am for me or the dire circumstances that many firefighters find themselves in during hurricane season. That is storm rescue and recovery. My district continues to be hit by 200 year floods and record rainfall. I have a number of Fire Departments, one of which is probably one of the largest if not the largest single municipality volunteer Fire Department in the country. ,hen these hurricanes hit firefighters and First Responders are there, no matter the condition. We are entering another hurricane season, and one Tropical Storm just came through last week through louisiana. Had the resources. They have to have the resources they need to respond to these. My question to all three of the witnesses is simply this, what is needed to better prepare our firefighters for hurricane season, and what does the Current Resource cash look like for disaster fairness across the country, specifically in texas . I will tackle that as best i can. I do not know how your cash and supply is in texas, but i know that one of the most valuable resources that the service has during a hurricane is the urban searchandrescue teams. There are 20 of those teams around the country. I do not know the number in texas, but they would pull them from memphis. When i worked there, memphis had one of those teams. They had teams in california, arizona, florida. I know memphis was pulled down through Hurricane Katrina and some of the others. Those teamsant that are supported financially and administratively. Because those Additional Resources are needed during a hurricane or some other event like that. I do not think i can address hurricanes, but certainly the same types of thoughts go through my mind when we first started into this because we are in tornado alley. While it is certainly not necessarily to the degree of a hurricane, it is something that we plan for as well, how to handle those type of disasters in the event we are still in the middle of covid19. It is a difficult thing to plan for. I am a little familiar with the hurricane response in texas. I have been there in the state for every hurricane that has come across texas since 2004. One of the biggest issues in relation to Disaster Preparedness certainly is equipment. And people, the two biggest things that we need. Organizationally the foundation has a program that we can assist firefighters and others as they come out from under the storm response, but one of the issues that we found is communication weh existing state agencies, have resources that are available, and the state has resources, and corn knitting that is a challenge. I see that as something that really needs to be worked on as we coordinate the relief efforts during these kinds of storms. Are all great answers. I want to say just how much i appreciate and how valuable our volunteer Fire Departments are to this country especially and my district. With that, madam chair, i yield back and say thank you very much. To the witnesses for your service to our country. I know the chairwoman brought up the issue of Mental Health as well as my colleagues from california, and one of the approaches that we had precovid working with iaff and the local act,tments was the hero helping Emergency Responders overtime. It was looking at programs within the stations to create your support in individuals within each station house that could reach out to firefighters and First Responders as well as be a confidential resource. It is something that they were in these fire houses. Staffactually have my send that bill around. It is endorsed by iaff, and it is a good approach that in a confidential way give some of these First Responders the ability to to reach out and talk about what they are seeing on the job. We really have seen an uptick precovid and the level of stress with the firefighters, the number of suicides with need toters, because we do much more. Californiare in where we have had disastrous forest fires, and you are asking to go and fight those fires and to continue to work overtime hours. That does take its toll. Later in covid19, what we are asking the firefighters to do, and what they are actually seeing, it will just create an additional level of stress, so anything we can do to address the hidden epidemic of Mental Health and stress and suicide within the firefighters, i think it behooves us to push those resources out to the departments at a time when we need those First Responders, we cannot have them going down or having to deal with these enormous stresses. Mr. Of the areas, and maybe mcgee, if you want to talk about some of the hidden stress that these members are seeing. Sure. I appreciate your leadership on this issue. It is important, getting people to talk about their internal struggles and stressors and triggers that make their behavior somewhat out of the regardlesshallenge of a pandemic. Support, as Peer Training Program where we train firefighters to recognize issues about behavioral or health. I am sad to say but happy to report that it is our most productive and most requested type of training because this is a real issue in the fire service. Just recognizing it and getting people to talk about it is a huge obstacle. When we talk about it, having these programs and the Resources Available to direct our members to to get them the help they need is really important. In light of the covid pandemic, one of the things we have doing is offering an Online Support program and Training Program as a result of your leadership and the issues that we are facing and trying to address during the pandemic. May, one of the unique things about the volunteer fire service is these are neighbors helping out their neighbors in the worst possible time which means that the folks we are responding to are probably people that werent related to or neighbors too, we go to school with, in sunday school with them. That adds the additional stress to the volunteers. I also think the volunteer service has stepped up to the foundation,1033 headquartered in california, has timevery giving of their and resources. They have helped out volunteer firefighters across the country. In the National Council with their share alone program where volunteers have the ability do to call a tollfree number to reach assistance from fellow First Responders and then referred out to other professionals. We just came up, i dont know whether it is out, a reference book of professionals in the Mental Health field across the country so we can put that in the hands of fire chiefs so they can provide that support. It is a very big topic. Madam chair, i will yield back. Thank you. We will move to mr. Baird. Thank you, madam chair trade i appreciate the opportunity to be on this call and certainly theeciate all that firefighters and First Responders do. I want to add my support to the expression asian of appreciation in that regard and especially what youve done during this pandemic. Predominantly rural area of west central indiana. My questions deal with the aspects that impact those rural Fire Departments. 25 you mentioned the you also mentioned that some of these departments might be disadvantaged. Would you care to comment on that . Again, the volunteer departments, these are the people in your communities. They do not have fulltime staff to be able to apply for grants. They are given even more of their time, but now raising money, so i guess it is not just those people. In many departments those are the people who are doing a case pancake feeds in order for those departments to be able to respond on a regular basis, let alone to have to respond to covid19 calls. It is very unique. That is why maintaining that 25 setaside for volunteer Fire Agencies is very important. Thoseight add some of pancakes are not really bad. They do a pretty good job. I am vulnerable to that. , you mentionou, something about not having access or not having shortages of some of the medical medications. Could you clarify that to make sure i understand what you were making reference to . There are certain drugs that we require that we use good we use those in events like support procedures. This drug shortage has gone on for at least 10 or 12 years that i know of. You might have the fda that stops a line based on some type of quality issue. Thatight have a company decides theyre not making a profit on this type of drug, so they will switch. We have seen the shortage for an extended period of time, and then when covid19 hit, it exacerbated the problem. , forcal drugs that we need ,nstance, as we sedate patients those drugs are also needed for the ventilators, and we needed that same type to sedate our patients, so weve been experiencing shortages for quite a long time, including those critical drugs that we need. So maybe we need to coordinate that with the ppe to make sure you have access to that on a regular basis. That is correct. There are issues that complicate that including us not even receiving notice from some of the drug many factors that theyre shutting down a particular line. There needs to be some type of notice of that. Madam chair, i have another question, but i cannot see my clock. Sandy, on the protective equipment and so on, are there additional things that you think we need to help text firefighters . We have discussed how many times they the first one bears and interacting to some of these asking if youm have any additional thoughts of the kind of equipment that maybe we do not have or what we are providing is adequate. For the question and the opportunity to respond. The important thing is the equipment, but i also think that the experience of the First Responders and firefighters and fire chiefs that have already developed some protocols and the experience they have obtained during this initial Pandemic Response is going to be important. All of the money that is in afg andy congress safer is appreciated, but it is not enough, and the type of equipment that we need, the supplies are short, and being able to plan and develop the request and the needs early on is important. That is why the funding is so important. People and equipment are the most important things that we have two deal with this response. I will defer to others that have more expertise in the type of equipment that we need, but personal protective equipment is important. Very much. U the clock i see it shows that i am out of time. I yield back. Thank you very much. Ms. Fletcher. Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today and for your testimony. Colleagues asmy they comment about the importance of the Fire Departments. My own brotherinlaw is a volunteer firefighter here in my district, so i see firsthand the role they play in our community. I am here in houston so we see the work by the houston Fire Department, a rather large department, everyday including just this morning when we had an explosion in the middle of the night. That we hearings is kind of the about rendering medical aid and transporting patients with covid19. I think it was mentioned that firefighters are Prehospital Health Care advisors providers, first workers that are in physical contact with an infected person. Following up on the questions on that issue, i would be interested if you could share a little bit more about that role thehow that is affecting issue, and we all anticipate, but i think i read in your testimony that the association said 64 of the responses in 2018 were actually medical calls. Can you talk about the breakdown of 911 emergency medical emergency responses . And what you think you would need more help to be able to do to protect your firefighters and emts from the virus . Whether additional training or other things. From everyone on that role in the time i have left which is about three minutes. Thank for that question. That the response percentages have changed since the pandemic. But i also have not viewed the latest reports so i do not really know. And as i believe that she said earlier, fires and other types of calls firefighters respond to have not stopped simply because we are in a pandemic. Percentages im not sure have changed. It would not surprise me if it is more elevated as far as ems response goes. Hat we have found in houston, is a battle between our firefighters in the city of houston in relation to personal protective equipment ppe . Of houston iny relation to ppe. Our leadership has had to to Great Lengths to identify for the administration at their own ability to utilize funds that have been allocated for the city of houston from the federal government, and to buy the proper equipment. We are talking about a lack of gloves, face shields, body isolation suits, the tyvek suits. For city of formally people that is the real problem. What we would like to see is the availability of the revenue without the waivers for aft to make it easier, even for us that you like houston, with their tot resources, to be able purchase appropriate equipment for firefighters and responders. Our firefighters partnered with the department of health and houston to check on the wellbeing of nursing home patients and they did that on a voluntary basis. And they did that knowing they may not have the appropriate level of personal protective equipment ppe . So we are all in and we are ready to respond to our constituencies. And having that afg funding without waivers is going to help us do that. Thank you. Would you like to weigh in . Waiversl echo that. The are so important that they need to be waived. In my own community in champaign, illinois, we have lost significant revenue with sales tax money. Where the home of university of 55 thousand we sent students home and they stopped buying the pizzas and College Students do, we have a lack of sales tax money revenue coming in here. So i do not have the extra money in my budget to go ahead and pay for those matches. It is so important that that be waived. And again, we recommend wholeheartedly that be done through direct program from the federal government directly to the Fire Department. Thank you so much for that. I know these are important priorities and we were talking about the air in that, how we can help and get direct funding air evac. Im optimistic your testimony today will be helpful. I have used my time so i thank you for your participation at comments today. Thank you. Mr. Balderston . Thank you, chairwoman johnson, and thank you for holding the hearing today at thank you for the panelists today. Im very grateful for everything you do. My first question is for mr. Hirsch. Concernsoned you have with the legislative solutions that disadvantaged rural and volunteer Fire Departments and ive heard from volunteer departments throughout the crisis they face unique challenges. Could you elaborate on what congress can do legislatively, that would help these departments to the same extent that it helps all types of Fire Departments . Sure. You know, when the fire act Grant Programs started, there was a larger pool of money put into those programs. What you see is when the pie gets smaller, it gets, the pieces get a lot smaller for people. That is part of what is happening at the volunteer fire service, is that as a pie got smaller and the pieces got smaller. Some departments just flat gave up applying. Because they would try for one or two or three years in a row and be turned down. And they finally decided it was a waste of their time to do that. Could you turn your camera on . Im sorry. Ok, we see you. Ok. The pie and take make it smaller and you cut the pieces even smaller, it makes it very difficult for volunteer Fire Departments. That is why it is so important to keep that when he 5 setaside. That 25 one of the unique challenges i have mentioned before, of the volunteer, especially ems agencies even more so than Fire Agencies, i have a county that, you have 10 to 12 people who are volunteering their time to protect the health of their community. It takes only one or two of those, to contract covid, and the entire agency is shut down. They are covering 900 square miles as it is. How are you going to be able to provide ems service in that community to those people . That is why it is so important to protect the health of our personnel. Thank you very much. Mr. Hirsch, a followup. , departments are handling widely different challenges. Given the expertise we have each of youday, tell us what you feel the Biggest Challenges for your respective organization and how we can Work Together to find solutions for all types of Fire Departments. Our Biggest Challenges financing. As i mentioned in my testimony, we have to put more money in this program. Because that is the only solution. We have departments and there will be department in your state that will survive entirely upon fundraisers and they are unable to do that. And that is going to have the spinoff effect, not just a response to cobit, but now they can no longer have the money in the bank to be able to provide equipment for responding to structure fires. They can no longer upgrade the fire truck they need to upgrade and then they are making choices about whether or not to pay utility those are insurance. It is a big issue. The only way that is going to be handled as with proper funding financing. Chief ludwig, would you like to follow up . Yes and i echo what steve said. Financing is so important. My own budget submitted with over time. It has been decimated with the supplies we have to buy. I talked to chiefs all over the nation. I talked to achieve yesterday new england he said he cut his budget 10 . And another 10 coming. I talked to fire chiefs told to cut 5 , to 20 of their budget. Because we have expanded our overtime budgets. Now we have an economic downturn. A shutdown in the economy where beautiful governments rely at Fire District rely on that revenue coming in from taxes, and that has been gone. Again, that is the biggest component i might add. By what i said with the financing issues. All right, thank you. Madam chair, i yelled back. Yield back. Chair ms. Stevens . Thank you, madam chair. This is an incredible hearing and what an honor to be with chief ludwig and mr. Mcgee and mr. Hirsch. I have learned so much from all of you so far. Congresswomanw, tilly and senator gary peters have taken action around addressing the waiver requirement, particularly for safer grants. Congresswoman tlaib. This is forthcoming legislation in the house, relay for local firefighters departments during covid19 act. Our fire proud of departments here in michigan and the way they have stepped up in this pandemic. I think back to last summer being with my friend who runs the plymouth township Fire Department and the one at the Highland Department and the technology and the innovations, that is what we do here on the science committee. And what goes into those trucks, and youre doing thing so quickly and you need to know where everything is. And it isstandards great operations and the safer grants and the afd grants are so critical for us being able to execute. In Commerce Township in particular. My colleague township supervisor, david scott, with his Fire Department, we got him a big safer grant. Rochester hills, big safer grant. Mcgee, youabout mr. Can kick us off. Can you discuss for me the importance of ensuring that our Fire Departments are adequately staffed in the role that sabre grants have and ensuring that with the safety, and what this waiver requirement do you think it is necessary . And if so, why or why not . What we want to get at is we did this in heroes, a part of it, and we have forthcoming legislation. And we need to get you guys, we need to get you the best acknowledging possible. Lets start with you, mr. Mcgee. Question. Ou for that youre correct, the technology is very important. What also is important our people. It takes people to put out fires and to do cpr and it takes people to respond to car wrecks, and every other disaster or situation firefighters respond to. People and personnel are really important. The number of personnel is important which is why i know my firefighters. [laughter] them. Y good. You do know evidencequantifiable that has been produced by the federal government, to show the proper number of personnel or people. The number of firefighters that it takes to do every job that we have, whether pulling a hose or spring water, or doing cpr, for administering drugs. There is a quantifiable process that we have gone through, to show the proper number of people. The fact is, the fewer people we have, the less work gets done and the less safe the work is and the less efficient we are. The waivers are important for safer so we can retain firefighters and rehire firefighters. I might be going out on a limb here, but we do not think a lot of Fire Departments are going to be hiring firefighters in the future, simply because of the economy we feel like we are going to be in, and already are in. So the waivers to allow for the retention and rehiring of firefighters that are laid off is the most important thing. But also the equipment that we get from afg. So it is not an either or situation. It is both of these programs working hand in hand for this kind of a response. Fabulous. Chief ludwig, do you want to try med . I would say i echo what sandy is saying. I is the illustration of a three legged stool. If you have the people. You have the equipment. Then you have the procedures that you do adequately within a reasonable amount of time. Youre going to have Success Stories there. If you remove one of those legs, the stool falls over. It is important and imperative we have proper funding for people. The proper funding for equipment. In the proper training to do the things that we do. We take care of the training, we just need the equipment and the people. Training, training, training. I am over time and thank you all, this is spot on hearing for all of us today. Chair thank you very much. Mr. Olson . Good afternoon. Im assuming you can hear me. Chairman and to our three witnesses. Suburbsrom texas, the of houston, the southwest suburbs of houston, the southwest suburbs. I would like to followup in the line of questioning. [inaudible] started june 1, 12 days ago. That surprised meet with the current situation. Stories that developed dust storms that developed before j first, Tropical Storm arthur and bertha. Are there formed may 16 and bertha formed may 27. Cristobal, went up through wisconsin, the first time a storm has done that and seems to have happened before june 2. My question is on a federal 3rogram, called the 103 program, very important to local communities and Fire Department and First Responders. It is a program that allows a local entity like a city or Fire Department or Police Department or First Responders to bite surplus, the armed military vehicles. These vehicles are worth nothing to dod and they already armed and the only weapons these can have is basically someone goes to their local [indiscernible] and gets a straw and a spit wad. That is all these things can do. These are very important to use after hurricanes, for example Hurricane Harvey in 2017. Had three firetrucks flooded. They had to send them out to rescue people and they did that knowing they would flood. They are but those electronics are corroded. This program has controversy but it is valuable to our local communities. I would like you to discuss how importantly 1033 program is to have you do your job in times of hurricanes, river floods, disasters, whatever. Lets start with mr. Mcgee. They give for the question, congressman. I have no expense at all with the 1033 program. And i would not i have no experience at all with that program. And i would not feel comfortable commenting on it. Thathave no knowledge of 1033 program either. I do know that the ifc has a masse and ited en deals with [inaudible] national [inaudible] and we used software and share resources were resources can be shared. If you firetrucks flooded out then maybe you can call for firetrucks from surrounding communities using the software program. I have to add that i do not know anything about the 1033. Hopefully the state come aboard and use our en masse system. My fathers ago when started the Fire District in kansas, they were fortunate to receive pieces of x military equipment. That served as a backbone for the fire service in those communities for years. They still do. We have Fire Departments across kansas and america that are using excess military equipment to fight fires, and personally, for me here in the planes, i have used those to get their snowdrifts because they will go through snowdrifts when other stuff on not, a very important program. Thank you so much. A final question and this is also about hurricane season. We have had a lot of covid pop up in the region, mostly Retirement Homes and senior homes. If those people have to evacuate, once again where will they be welcomed, bring covid here, stop here. What are the plans, because you will be exposed, to keep the firefighters, have these people protected with more gear. How do we make sure that was a smooth transition and get them out of harms way . Because it is a big deal. They have to get out of the area, for sure, but the exposed First Responders they may be exposed. Are you guys planning for any sort of plans for disasters or the evacuation of populations exposed to covid19 . I will take that question. I can tell you i know there is a national company, gmr or amr, with a fema contract and they ems agenciesncies, around the country on contract, that if they have to move and ambulances or other type of transportation bands into an area, they have those resources and they courted up for fema. Even then with those resources in place, it is still imperative and important that we protect our people. It is important that the strategic National Stockpile be adequately staffed and stocked. That the supply chain be good. And that Fire Departments that are part of the system, the national system, also have the proper equipment and funding to buy that equipment. Thank you. Mr. Mcgee i will put you on the spot since you worked in oklahoma. And coming out of [inaudible] the university of tulsa. [laughter] never mind, i yell back. Chair which one is next . Mind, i yield back. Chair which one is next . Horne . Here. , i am chair you are recognized. Thank you, madam chair. Sandy, it is great to see you even virtually. I appreciate all you are doing as a fellow oklahoman and you should know that mr. Olson tries to stir up the red river rivalry all the time and i would agree with you, the university of tulsa the graduate, but still owe beats texas any day. Ou beats texas any day. Thank you to our witnesses on this important subject. Ive had mobile conversations stevensline on m. Of questioning on the savior program and the afg program afgsafer program and the program. Speaking on behalf of oak lummis a city and small rural departments in my district and volunteered apartment to know the importance. In terms of the flexibility, the ability. Gave fund flex it strikes me that one of the core issues is the need for flexibility is the need to retain. Oak lummis city relies fully on sales tax to fund these for services. Four services. To avoid the loss of critical firefighter capacity can you speak to the most important waivers in the safer grant and the afg program . Yes. Thank you congresswoman and it is good to see you even if it is via remote means. The waivers that are most important well, they are all important. That are most important is, the waiver that would allow for the retention of firefighters. As we have discussed, Fire Departments and cities are going to have, if they are not already experiencing, a revenue shortfall. Theyre going to be look at the biggest costs and that is always people. Unfortunately that is the reality we find ourselves in. The ability to retain or rehire firefighters that have already been laid off is very important. Provisioncost share or waiver. For instance, the city of tulsa is in a hiring freeze right now. We have talked about the revenue shortfall. They could apply for a safer grant. They are going to have attrition in their next budget year that they already know is going to occur. But the grant as the rules are currently presented do not help them. So they are not going to apply for that kind of assistance. If we could get that waiver enacted into law, it would help cities. And im sure there are others around the state or the country that are similarly situated tulsa. Those are important. That is the flexibility im talking about. To followup, for smaller departments with 10 or fewer firefighters in some cases, the safer grant, no cities, is that making a difference, between whether or not a community could retain professional Fire Department . A differencemaking between whether or not they are continuing to keep their Fire Department going or not . It could, it actually could. The cost associated with hiring firefighters and personnel, we all know that it is expensive. But we have already experienced furloughs in pauls valley, furloughs in mcalester. The possibility of furloughs and layoffs in chickasha. These are not big cities, these are small towns and ro communities in our state. Every department regardless of the size or even if they are a Combination Department or a volunteer only department, can all benefit from the savior program. Recruitment, from the safer program. Recruitment, retention, the value of that program cannot be stressed enough. Yes, even small departments in rural committees benefit from the program. We always encourage them to apply. Thank you very much. Are ofr if i have they our other witnesses would care to comment. Thank you, sandy. Think there is anything i would add to that. I appreciate that support. Thank you rematch. Thank you very much. We appreciate it and we appreciate mr. Barretts comments and im about out of time. The Mental Health component is something i would like to follow on as well to make sure we are taking care of our firefighters. Madam chair, i yield back. Chair thank you rematch. Mr. Sherman . Much. Nk you very i want to thank the chair for putting together this hearing on safer and afg. I had questions about my colleagues have asked most of them. Zoe i think had an excellent point about the urban wildland interface, and that has been affected by global warming. And the comments about the need to focus on taking care of the firefighters who are under such stress. I would like to take one minute, not on firefighting in particular, and that is the role of the science committee, and science, and dealing with this covid crisis. We are the center of support in congress, for support for scientific research. Of thee quarter of 1 money that has been enacted so research on to therapeutics, prophylactics, and understanding the covid disease. Great work is being done, unprecedented work is being done, but it is still only. 25 of the money and theres a lot of things we could be doing that we are not researching. Most of the professional medical researchers are sitting at home, since the noncovered research has been deferred. Noncovid research has been deferred. Also i serve on the Foreign Affairs committee for the last 24 years and this covid disaster will hit the third world and has hit the third world and the biggest thing we can do to help the whole world is through research. So i am hoping that many people listening to me now will support a letter to leadership urging that we defend in negotiations with a . 5 billion, that is 5. 5 billion out of 3 trillion in the heroes act for covid scientific research. I have spoken to the chair woman about this and i will be circulating that. Firefighters, they are funded as part of local government in most cases and we are going to see not only our costs higher for the ppe, etc. , but theres this huge decline in revenue from sales tax and the commercial property tax and income tax. And we have to fight for the money from state and local government but we probably will not be successful in doing enough. So we have to provide more flex ability for the funds that we do provide. There are number of requirements in the grants and one of those is the 25 for the volunteer fire to parnas and i put that aside because i think theres a lot of support for that. Volunteer Fire Departments. Good. S other that may be the first is the matching requirement and we have heard several witnesses say we need to waive that. Saferond is, that the grants can be used only for a new and additional firefighters, not to retain current staff. Thatmportant is it, that would be waived in the heroes we and how important is that waive this for the year after the covid crisis and i wonder if any of our witnesses can address this. I think it is important, mr. Congressman, that if congress does adopt the waivers we are suggesting, or the lack of, however you want to say it, i think going into the future it is important. Because this is going to linger around the effects of the pandemic, the effects of the pandemic are going to leaguer in our economy for a while. Im not an economist or an expert, just speaking from practical experience that will take a while to recover. I expect will will fully recover but it will take a while. So if the waivers are granted as we are suggesting, not just for this current fiscal year or the heroes act, but also into the future, i think that will go a long way to address your concern, about how we do this Going Forward. Life i headed the largest state tax agency and i will tell you, the commercial property tax revenues, which some cities rely upon, are going to be hardhit for several years. Im hoping the sales tax and income tax rebound. But this year is going to be a terrible fiscal year for all of our state and local governments. What about the maintenance of effort requirements . There are a lot of those built into the bill or built into these programs. Do we, should those be suspended or retained in these two Grant Programs . To have a comment from any of our witnesses . And the ifc is in favor of suspending those, that they should also be waived. The iff is as well. Ok. And, finally, there has been a responseat 64 of fire , Fire Department responders were for medical aid in 2018. Now we have this covid crisis and i wonder how that has affected the mix between firefighting and emt or verses that to the apartment youre doing. Sometimes we that put more oxygen then we do water. [laughter] there is no doubt we are mostly ems agencies that sometimes go to fire calls but we need the fire resources in place because we have to manage that risk. One of the things ive talked to my colleagues around the country about, that is that they have seen an increase of cardiac arrest in homes. Because people who might have gone to the doctor, that have preexisting conditions, asthma or heart condition, have knock onto the doctor. They have not thought medical consultation or treatment. They try to stick it out at home and it got to the point where it actually affected the condition and they went into cardiac arrest. Most cardiac arrest, less than 1 of calls for a fight of harman cardiac arrest calls. I talked to colleagues around the country who are running up to 12 of calls were cardiac arrest calls in homes, because people were delaying treatment are going to their doctor or clinic or the hospital, because of their fear of going out and being exposed to covid19 disease. It really, really impacted our fire to permits and ms agencies with the increase of these critical calls and the criticality of these calls. My time has expired and thank you, madam chair. Chair thank you very much. I think the witnesses. Something i was not aware of is the importance of the waivers so this has been importance on a lot of issues and thank you for that. Like my other california colleagues and those in the gulf states i am concerned about femas ability to respond to Natural Disasters during the pandemic. In order to encourage them to prepare, i coled a bicameral senator,ong with harris which was signed by anyone colleagues requiring fema to outline their Natural Disaster preparation recovering plans for the cover 19 pandemic and we still have not heard back from them so im getting anxious they have not done the right preparation. You believek, do the federal partners like fema and the u. S. Forest service are doing enough to share information and best practices . In preparation for wildfire season . Work through the department of forestry, and the bureau of Land Management a lot when it comes to wildland fire season. Fema has a role in their. Typically they are responsive to our needs. I cannot speak for the preparation now. I do not know where they are at with things. In the past they are typically responsive. Most part interactions are with the department of forestry and the bureau of Land Management when it comes to wildland fires. Thank you. This to begin, you noticed and this has been discussed at length, about the shortages of all types of ppe. How did these needs vary across different departments . Trite, itsounding is all of the map. There are departments that have an adequate supply of rubber gloves but they do not have face masks. They might have face masks, but they do not have gloves or tyvek suits. It is hard to characterize the type of personal protective equipment ppe shortage on the universal basis, if that makes sense. It is really a question of each apartment and their own needs, and what they had prior to the pandemic, and how they have had to utilize the equipment during the pandemic. I think that will go a long way in helping them identify with a need for the future. That is all the information i know so far. Each department. We are working on how to better answer the question of what our members actually need. Will there be a purpose or out need for federal court dated effort to try to identify local needs or local shortages . I think it could be helpful, and we have talked a little bit about communication and coordination between the Different Levels of government. I think anything that can be done to facilitate that is a good idea. Thank you. We havech, you and heard from other witnesses on the importance of volunteer firefighters. What are some of the unique risks volunteer firefighters face during the pandemic . As opposed to professional firefighters . Ourll, clearly, firefighters responding from their home or their businesses, and taking that back to their businesses, they might be selfemployed and all of a sudden their businesses shut down. That is unique. The fact that we have small youcies, and the fact that contract covid within one of those small agencies and all of a sudden that agency is shut down. Away. Ual aid is 30 miles that is not going to work. So we have to make sure we are protecting our personnel day in and day out. Sewed you know if the provisions in the heroes act would be helpful if the act is brought into law . It certainly would because it would allocate more money that will make the pie bigger, and that will allow more departments to get funding. Thank you. Mr. Mcgee, how about you . Do you think the provisions contained in the heroes act will help address the layoffs . In the cutback problem . Yes it will if the waivers are adopted by congress. Yes, they certainly will. Thank you. I am going to yield back, madam chair. Chair thank you very much. Mr. Tomko . Can you hear me . Thank you for convening this hearing. And thank you to our experts for providing our perspectives. It is good to hear your thoughts about the heroes act which we hope the United States senate will take up. Firefighters are among those essential pieces by local governments. Yet tens of thousands of fire to parts across the country are part of the fabric of our community, not just because of their admirable willingness to rescue complete strangers from burning buildings, but also because of the myriad Additional Services they provide. Like manyrs Government Employees have been asked to do more with less. The mission has expanded to include emergency medical response and general Public Safety. For example i am proud the Fire Department this week completed [inaudible] two improve water safety this summer. Chief ludwick, you them allude to this in your testimony. Could you talk more about the nonfire related response to billys local Fire Department nonfireon, related responsibility that local Fire Departments now take on . We an all hazards response, not only fires but ems calls and Hazardous Material events. We respond to high angle rescue youts, dive accidents, name the gamma and we are in all hazards response type of agency. Gamut. Although the word fi fireis in is in their, their all sorts. So it is important we maintain the staffing and equipment to do that and that is why it is vitally important that these federal programs be in place for us, financially to support the operations. Mr. Hirsch, i would love to hear your perspective. Volunteer Fire Departments their often Rural Communities and nonfire related ways. I do not think there is any difference between a rural Fire Departments and bigcity departments, we are all handling this same type of calls. But you now have people who are the volunteers in that community, who have taken their time away from their families, away from their jobs, actually spending their own money to make sure they can be volunteers for their neighbors. That is why the Grant Programs are so important to us. It allows us to the able to carry out our mission, which is, as gary said, all hazards. It is not different in the volunteer service than in the career. It is clear to me Fire Departments are providing services will be on their original intent. And we applaud them for doing so. But we should do more than a and we should fund. I am proud my office has provided 83 letters of support for afg and safer grants, with more in the pipeline now. Chief ludwick, i would love to know from the perspective of fire chiefs, can you describe the process for applying for an afg grant . Sure. The grant director of fema makes an announcement. Let me go back, Congress Approved the funding for that. You are our heroes quite frankly. It is important once that formed once that funding is done, the grant director announces in and theres a public announcement. Theres a window of time when fired apartment can apply. So when Fire Departments can apply. Theres an Application Online and Fire Departments will submit the Application Online including the narrative and why they need to grant. That customer compete rest system where, i do not a computerized system and those elected to move forward our peerreviewed. Then the awards are made by the grant director. Thank you and from the firefighters perspective, mr. Mcgee . The process for applying to the afg grant. You, congressman, i will defer to chief ludwig as to the process. We typically get involved when we have the ability to work with our fire administrators on a local basis to help them commit their agreement in writing and we have resources as an organization to help Fire Departments as they propose and apply for these grants. Quickly, how is the grant writing process different for a volunteer fired apartment . It is the same process, the same application, the same types of data. Just now youre dealing with people who are having to give more of their time, their family time and their business time, to compile those statistics, to write the narratives, and get them submitted. Thank you. And thank you to our witnesses and to our chair. Madam chair, a great hearing, and i. Yell back yield back. Chair thank you for a much. Next . Thank you all for everything you do and being here today. A lot ofig, representation on the committee, nice to see. I want to ask, in the personal protective equipment ppe you have been able to source, ballpark, have you predominately been able to support your personal protective equipment ppe via fema and what they have been doing has it been staid or where have you found to be the most effective channels to secure the ppe that you need . Early on, frankie, the supply chain was not there. We were putting in request of the state agency which puts a request to the federal level and the supplies were not coming back. So we were forced to go outside and look for our own resources. Our mayor had contacts with the company, so we were able to secure some there. I had people outreach to me that they had n95 and downs. Gowns. I talked to colleagues around the country and they were receiving anything, not even a full box of gloves just five or six pairs of gloves, so they did not have the resources we mightve had to go out and find stuff. It was really, really challenging for us early on. And really challenging for a lot of my colleagues around the country to find the proper ppe from, frankly, anywhere. To theid19 task force ifc, we had an expert looking at fake n95 coming out of southeast asia. At one point we were detecting90 of all the equipment n95 coming out of southeast asia, china, malaysia, were fake n95. We did webinars on how to spot fake n95 masks. Is that still the case . Where you sourcing from now . Where in better shape now as the curve has flattened and the supply chain with the air left has become better. Also local companys in the United States have begun manufacturing, under the defense production act. That supply chain has become better. Those resources are now available at the state level. Resourcing, is the state running the program or is fema running that are you doing that independently . How it typically works is we would put request and through the county Emergency Management agency. They put the request to the state Emergency Management agency. If they have the equipment within the National Stockpile within our state, those caches within our state, they can allocate it from there and if not they are pushing request up to fema at the federal level. Onwill be asked the question april 6, we have these briefings from fema to the midwestern folks. On april 6 we are on a call with fema were they told us they were prioritizing ppe where they were seeing hotspots. I asked on the call how they were identifying hotspots and on april 6 we do not have enough testing to understand and i was promised a reply and ive yet to receive a reply. I remain concerned that if fema is prioritizing local governors, that states are fighting with each other, which is not efficient. This is a precise question but in early april did you see any significant change in how fema was coordinating response, or subsequent to that . It is ironic you asked that question because we did have an hour long conversation with the administrator, and the exact reprioritizing. We were concerned that we heard reports they were seizing a quitman from Fire Departments, that had ordered supplies directly from a supplier. He denied that was occurring. That they were seizing equipment from Fire Departments. But he did state they were reprioritizing where they saw a need so that was a concern for us. Because obviously our priority locally or in other community is their priority. So that was the problem. You had more demand than you had supply. Ok, thank you. And for all on the call, the concern i have that if we were not testing everyone in the country at that point or anyone it wasasymptomatic, hard to know how fema was doing the prioritization and the fact that ive not gotten a response in month has my spidey sense tingling. Sorry you had to go through that and will continue to punch through that and if you have an idea on anything to help let us know. Chair thank you ray much. Thank you very much. Dr. Foster . I would like to change the subject to research standards. The National Fire Protection Association develops consensus codes and is the Standards Development organization for the fire service community. Codes and standards of care and so on are very important when we are facing new threats like covid19. Many of the Health Threats are not obvious. Could you elaborate, on your organizations involvement in the standards developing process, and the covid19 related research and Standards Development efforts that have happened . And how the whole system has been working in the crisis, so you know what the standard of care and safety should be . Order. N any speaking for the National Volunteer fire council, we have a number of Board Members who serve or are appointed to an serve on the various committees and we monitor those various fda committees and we monitor those all the time. It is an import part of the process for us. Did you get realtime information and updates on, what is safe . Handling a covid positive patient . For suspected covid positive patient . The understanding of what was safe and what was not has evolved very rapidly over this crisis . Are you getting a good level of information . Or is there room for improvement . Im sure there is always room for improvement, but i think most of the volunteer fire service is relying upon the guidance from cdc. Chief ludwig, any comment . I will echo, yes, we are stakeholders on many of those consensus building committees for standards with the fda and also a part of from the ms office with the national Highway Traffic Safety Administration where they developed the crick limper medical care, we are stakeholders in that the curriculum for medical care. The standard we use we call, when we protect ourselves, whether a covid patient or if they have a bloodborne disease or any airborne disease, though standards are universal. We as universal precautions on all patients. We were fearful of the fear factor, of how spreadable is this disease . How transmittable is this disease . Could it hang in the air for another five or six hours after we leave the room . Those were concerns we had that early on, i do not know what the science or technology existed to push that out. So all we could do was rely on our National Standards of medical care and also the cdc recommendations. Ok. Do not havean, i much to say about research. Is workingsf handinhand with fema, with cdc, with health and Human Services and other governmental agencies, to work through development of protocols as we have already talked about, and any Research Related to the effectiveness of ppe would be welcome. More research, since we do not know a lot about the virus itself, is certainly always welcome. At anything we can learn about to help reduce the transmission of the covid virus and protect firefighters organizationally and as professional firefighters , we are very interested in that. And very interested it and what programs could be developed to help to accomplish that. Obviously the standard of protection for you guys has to be higher than for the average citizen. Because your handling potentially very dangerous virus. And trying to understand whether there is a highly responsive system to make sure you get the information in a timely manner. Now, i will change subject. Im supportive of the emergency covid funding for firefighters and First Responders. But in order to maintain the support or a bigger pie for everyone, the allocation has to be seen as fair. Are an awig, you small or medium town in rural illinois. Often what we see is that because you are in a Large Population state, they end up being punished. So, for example, laramie, wyoming, a similar sized town, gets five times more money according to the cares allocation. This sort of thing, im wondering, do you sense that when you are making Grant Applications and so on, trying to get the money you need, that all of a sudden you find being in a Large Population state, because ofantaged the nature of the grant allocations or state totals . Quite frankly i am not aware orhow they allocate that, any type of process they use on the disabused of that money. I was thought was based on the the process they use on the distribution of the money. I was thought was based on the need or the practicality demonstrated in your application. Forgive my lack of knowledge but i did not know it was a certain amount allocated in certain places. If that is the case im not sure if that is a fair process, and i would like to have a fair process based on need and the demand. The number of people in our Fire Protection district, the first approximation. The federal assistance to citizens should not depend on where they live. So i think that is a thank you, madam chair. Chair thank you brad much. Thank you very much. They saved the best for last. Would . You mind doing a second round . [laughter] just kidding. Inet with my fire chiefs fairfax and alexandria recently and it was very good meeting. Personal protective equipment ppe never came up and they said they were in good shape. Im not sure whether our state or local governments planned well but they did talk about lots more cardiac incidents. A lot more strokes. As he put it out. People were postponing going to the emergency room until fire and ems had to come to their home. They did to the hardest part by far is staffing. People get stick, the overtime people get sick, the overtime if necessary. Sandy, the biggest thing going on in our lives is police brutality. Black lives matter, all the stuff has come up with First Responders in terms of [inaudible] and there are big websites, with incidences of inappropriate please behavior. By the way, wheat Inappropriate Police behavior. We know that 95 of police are doing a good job and we are trying to do with the other 5 . How come we do not hear this about firefighters . You are out there responding to dangerous situations. Your one had a percent write and thank you for the question. You are 100 correct and thank you for the question i think it may be related to how we are trained. We respond on a daily basis across the United States with our police counterparts, and that usually goes without a hitch and not a problem. So i cannot really speak to why the fire service is not experiencing the same issues that the Police Service is, other than to say it could be related to the type of [inaudible] we received and the way we operate on a daily basis. Firefighters work as a team. We fight fires together, we together, we do ems calls together, we eat together and we trained together. It serves in my mind that is why there is a difference, but im only speaking anecdotally. Anecdotally we need to hold you up from what we can expect the Police Departments to evolve into, we hope. I want to thank you all for the plusring your 1,000 firefighters and the 55 plus who have died and that is a lot of suffering i want to respect that. Chief, i have visited many Fire Departments and i woke up it to 30 m two nights ago and theres a big fire truck pulling in next to my house. 2 30 a. M. I realize they were responding to a medical emergency. 54 plus of responses are medical rather than fire, why do we send that big trucks with 45 people every time someone has chest pains or fainting incident or whatever . You are talking about a Deployment Model. Frankly, one of the aspects of that is, since we all are all hazard, we respond to medical emergencies but you never know what you will need. You might need an extrication tool and you can knock it into the house if no one answers the door. Theres a variety of different things. The other thing is we are strategically deployed in what the emergency is, whether it fire or any mass call, or s call or or an em someone who is trapped in a building collapse. We show up with the resources that we have because you might need it. You do not want to wait for another truck to come from a greater distance. That is the Deployment Model that is actually economically efficient so you do not have enough pulse will trucks serving multiple roles. That one truck serves multiple roles with multiple people who zard witha multiresponse capabilities. Firefighters gave up smoking years ago, and now covid19 [inaudible] how has the i dont know that it has evolved differently, but in the general population, we know it is not good for us, so we just dont. , firefighters essentially had to retire when they reached age 50 and that was not a magic number, what it was was we lack the equipment to protect our lungs. If we cut our hands and plead for a little while, it heals within a week or two. Lungs dont ever heal. I think firefighters are uniquely situated to understand that. Perhaps that is why we have seen a reduction in the use of Tobacco Products among firefighters. Thank you very much. I yield back. Chair thank you very much. I think that is our last business. Before we bring the hearing to a close, i want to thank our today. Es for testifying the record will remain open for two weeks for additional statements. The meeting is adjourned. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2020] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] more Live Programming coming up shortly with a discussion on Civil Liberties and the Pandemic Response hosted by the federalist society, you can watch it at 3 45 eastern on cspan. [chanting] with the protests unfolding across the country, what our live, unfiltered coverage of the governments response with briefings from the white house, congress, governors, and mayors from across the nation, updating the situation. Addressing the coronavirus and campaign 2020. Going in the conversation every day on our live callin Program Washington journal. If you missed our live coverage, watch anytime on demand at cspan. Org. Or listen on thgo