Were back with professor eaton of the university of oklahoma who is here to help explain to us the 1921 race massacre in tulsa, oklahoma. Oklahoma. Good morning. Guest good morning. Host President Trump is coming to oklahoma today, specifically going tulsa. Was the greenwood neighborhood of tulsa and tulsa for africanamericans prior to 1921 . Tell us the history. Guest tulsa represents this continued striving for upward thelity, black progress, in earlier part of the 20th century, it is the city bustling with activity. Tulsa has the benefit of the oil boom, but you also have many African Americans who are firmly planted, instead of rooted, within the professional class seeking opportunity outside of the south, and so they make their way to various areas that they called north were up north, even though we think of tulsa as being west of the south, and so you have this community that is filled with educated families. There is an opportunity to prosper, even without higher education, even though many have gone to college. You have entrepreneurship that is common. You have grocers, clothing stores, restaurants, cafes, beauty shops, etc. , so you have this emphasis on investment in the black community that we have in the greenwood section of tulsa. The wealth did not have to leave, and that was important, and that is how you have booker t. Washington name it, at the time, the term was a negro league wall street. Because you had this negro league wall street negro leaguwall street. Host set the scene for us. Teenwood was a part of ulsa. How big was a greenwood neighborhood around 1921 . Consecrated s was segregated across railroad tracks, so you have the Greenwood District covering several blocks, more than 20 or 30 blocks of north tulsa and then you have south tulsa and other parts of tulsa. So you have a very large area in terms of what the north looked like and then greenwood is kind of this Economic Center in that portion of the city. Host like you said, it was described as the negro wall street and call today the black wall street. What type of businesses were there . What was the neighborhood like when it came to businesses, schools, homes . 1921 . As it like before guest probably every business you can think of, tailors, grocery stores, restaurants. Many different doctors, offices, a hotel, clubs, social clubs, elementarys, middle, schools, churches, and you have multiple, so it isnt just one church, one grocer or one doctors office. You have a bustling center. Host explain to us what happened on may 31, 1921. Guest well, so i think the muchn knows that pretty between may 31 and june 1, that the africanamerican sections of tulsa were destroyed by fire, aerial bombs, and hundreds of people were murdered. Worstvent is called the race riot at the time in u. S. History, and now that language has been amended to kind of term it what it was, which was a massacre. What happens is that a shoeshine goes into shoeshiner a building to use the restroom and he was in a segregated part of tulsa, so africanamericans were not allowed to use the facilities, but there was an agreement made at the drexel building, so he goes into the building and enters the elevator. Way, both, by the of these individuals, sarah page and nick brolin are teenagers. She is the elevator operator. The elevator, and the thinking is that when he walks off the elevator or leaves the elevator, he stumbles and grabs onto her arm or reaches out, and she screams. Is a siren call, where there is a man in the building, a white man in the building who is a manager, he him coming outes so he elevator and immediately calls the police. Roland has been apprehended and brought in to the jail, and then there is this rumor going around e was accostedg in the elevator, and then it becomes something sort of exaggerated. Then it turns to she was sexually assaulted in the elevator. Mobhat point, a white begins to form at the jail and they took roland out of the jail and lynching him for this presumed Sexual Assault on sarah paige even though she never identified it as such. Host how long did the burning, diluting and destruction of greenwood last . May 31 and june 1, but what are we talking about here . Guest i would say consistently, we have about 16 to 18 hours of nonstop, but you have this looting that takes place over a couple of days, so it doesnt kind of just at the 16th our stop altogether. You still have the remnants that follow. I think it is important to note that we are not just talking about a mob that is formed and then goes and attacks a block or a of houses, but you have a mob of people who are going block by block by block, and not only firebombing homes and killing hundreds of residents, but they are looting first, so they are going into these homes, taking ,aluables, destroying furniture pocketing money, and then sitting homes on fire. Host how many people were killed during this race massacre . At thispproximately, point, people say approximately 300, but it is still an unknown number because there were so many people unaccounted for, and so much that is still uncovered. Something you mentioned, and i dont consider myself an expert on the Tulsa Race Massacres at all, but i have heard of it, but this year was the first time i had heard this, this racentioned that massacre also included aerial bombing. Articleo read from an because this was the first time i heard of this this year. The first firebombing of a city not take place during the second world war, but two decades earlier. It did not take place in some overseas conflict either. It took place in tulsa, oklahoma. It was the first and only aerial bombing of an American City in history and did not involve a war with a foreign power. Rather, it pitted americans against americans. I thought i knew at least some information about the Tulsa Race Massacre but this is the first time i found out that private aircrafts owned by clan members were used obama greenwood. Members were used to greenwood. Guest yes, and it tends to be unknown, and i use that term lightly because people who know the history, or even those former descendents or victims who were still living and their descendents know this history, thatt is usually omitted the aerial bomb, right, what we would call bombs, and so you have this assault that is not just on the ground, right . But you also have this assault from the air, and what can you do with that . How can you really combat what is coming ahead . I know that some accounts early oftry to gloss over the use aerial or what we would think of itthe firepower and say, oh, is a mistake, and they were dropping water to put out the fire, and while there might have been an attempt to put out the fire in that way, there is no doubt from eyewitness account and Historical Research that there was this aerial assault. Host let me remind our viewers they can take part in the conversation. We will open up regional lines. If you live in the eastern or time zones, your telephone number will be 202 7488000. Andou live in the mountain pacific time zones, your line will be 202 7488001. We are going to open up a special line for oklahoma residents. If you are a descendent of , if youwho was in tulsa know of someone or you just want to talk about the Tulsa Race Massacre and you are from oklahoma, your line is going to be 202 7488002. Keep in mind, you can always wet that 202 7488003 and are always reading on social media on twitter at cspanwj, and on facebook at facebook. Com cspan. Us howor, can you tell much wealth was lost in that Tulsa Community because of the destruction of greenwood . You ani cannot give exact number, but i can say it is estimated that hundreds of thousands of dollars were lost. That beforeemember that, the investment in the community was very large, and that was also a part of the huge success with the Greenwood District. Dollar did not have to really leave, so you not only have the money that is circulating throughout the community, but then you have reinvestment into the community with businesses and also Business Owners helping others start their initiatives and endeavors, so we are thinking about a community that is fairly selfsufficient. Arrested,anyone ever tried, or convicted for anything that happened in greenwood over those three days . Guest when you see anyone, yes, but not the perpetrators. So you have a reality that no white person was actually tried of whatcted for any happened, whether it be diluting, the murder, the , but what youting do have is many africanamerican who are arrested and charged with inciting a riot. Host go ahead. Guest i was going to say this withen after they had been thousands of people not only locked their homes, but they are also placed in an internment camp and held in these spaces theseemed criminal, and are the victims of the massacre. Host i had the honor of speaking at the Gilchrist Museum in tulsa a few years ago, and i had a personal tour of greenwood. Can you explain to our viewers who do not know what greenwood looks like today . Is actually and important and thriving area. There has been a lot of Economic Investment back into greenwood, so i will say that there is often a gap between the Tulsa Race Massacre and what we think of as greenwood today. There is a large assumption across the nation that the community was destroyed and that was it. Was a 40 year renaissance in the neighborhood, and one thing that the black community was determined to do was rebuild, and so i know personal stories just from my own family members and from others who say after the massacre and after people and realize assess their insurance claims would not be paid, and that they basically were going to be left on their own, they said, well, we are not going to let this stop us. City,eople did leave the and it rebuild, so you have this thriving greenwood that follows the massacre, and is that way 1960s, wheree you have what is thought of as urban renewal, but in many cities ends up kind of being problematic for especially black communities. And you have a freeway that is built through the area and what have you, and some divestment. But then you have this reinvestment within the past 10 to 15 years, so you have a Cultural Center with historical andmarks that are pointing there are universities that have campuses in the actual Greenwood District and a stadium, and so it is actually kind of a space where all of tulsa gathers. Host i was going to say i remember seeing the plaques in the sidewalks, indicating where these africanamerican businesses were during my tour greenwood, but also disappointed to see there is a major highway that goes directly through that neighborhood. Before we go to our callers, i understand you have a personal connection to tulsa with your grandmother moving there in 1922 and your grandmothers aunt living in tulsa during the riots. Can you share those stories with us . Guest sure. My grandmothers aunt lived there, and she owned a cafe in the greenwood section of tulsa, and my grandmother and her immediate family moved there to. Oin her aunt my grandmother was six or seven years old when she moved there, so she attended Elementary School through high school and her family lived there until her 1940. Passed away in it is interesting because i have stories of what i was talking about before, the tulsa immediately after the massacre, and the kind of leftwing tulsa that existed, and then i also have the stories that my grandmothers aunt told her about what it was like during andactual massacre itself escape,was forced to and she was huddled with other people in another part or the outskirts of the town, and then by providence, her house was saved, so she was able to come back to it but Everything Else was destroyed. Before, mys i said grandmother and her immediate family moved there the next year. I was always fascinated by the fact that they would still go there the next year, but it speaks to that determination, that selfdetermination to say, this is not going to be the end of black progress, and we are going to continue on. Host lets let our viewers join in on the conversation. We will start with debbie, calling from philadelphia, pennsylvania. Good morning. Caller good morning. Ton,t of all, professor ea beautiful face. Beautiful face. It is so interesting to hear these stories as a white woman. Now we are hearing black lives matter with looting and rai ding and then we had the same description in tulsa. Just interesting. I am hearing some great, great things in this story that you are telling because all i ever heard was black wall street and the bombing and destruction, but i never heard the particulars. Do they actually hang the young man, do you know . An thank you. Guest thank you. No, no they did not. , sorry, sarah page did not actually press charges. He was let go, dick rowland, and the story goes he immediately left town. He was never to be heard of again, and then the story goes that she actually left, as well. And that is an important question because where you have this mob of people outside of the jail, you also have a Counter Group of armed africanamericans, veterans, servicemen who have come back from world war i, and they go to the jail, and they are there to protect him, so they are not going to, you know, as the word gets back to their community, they decide we are not going to allow this young man to be hanged. I think it is also interesting to think of tulsa as a place that was segregated but did not have a long history of racialized violence as we associate with other spaces. Have this determined group saying this is not going to happen in this town. I mean, this is not going to happen on our watch. So you have the men to credit beingck rowlands life spared, and the sheriff did not allow rowland to be taken out, and, of course, he was found the charges were found to be false. Host we have a question from one of our social media followers who wants to know, did congress or any agency of the federal government take any action after the tulsa massacre . Attempt, an was an unsuccessful attempt, to make all of this disappear, especially related to the white media. The papers, any mention of what happened, the papers would destroy, they would not allow any information to be printed. Now, the black press on the other hand, new the story and picked up the story nationwide. You had representatives from the naacp to assess the damage. There were many insurance claims that were filed and then denied. Bc franklin representing the individuals and the losses and attempting to find some sort of way to compensate these victims, thousands of victims, but that is kind of where it stops. It is not go any higher because for a long time, there was a blind eye turned to this event. So the long answer, no. Host lets go to calling from jacksonville, florida. Good morning. Caller good morning. Are a very you goodlooking woman. About theyou said moderator, sir, about the cities, and between the i have to say two quick things and good morning. They do that here in jacksonville. We had a black area, and i was raised in gaffney, south killeda, and when you the people, they had a saying in gaffney, the white people, that the black people dont know they place. In fact, they would tell you you dont know your place. Community and how it prospered, and had to be some jealousy. There is always a rumor about a white woman or something to that. And i got kind of mad when i put it in perspective. We have always been told that black folks dont have nothing, but you have never seen these type of massacres that im watching with you guys, they had another one in arkansas, when community tried to get themselves together, and then you turn around and you hear white folks say, well, you blacks and got nothing, or you are always begging, but they never put in the history books all the atrocities of how they have held us back. Just like the black indians in oklahoma, fighting for their money, something about the oil or whatever. When obama was president , he would not even help them. You get tired and angry when you you know weolk say are always baking and stuff, and here they are, like the lion and the lamb, just like the devil himself. At you,u they come and then in turn, they are the ones inflicting the damage that keeps their foot on your neck. Host go ahead and respond, professor eaton. Isst unfortunately, tulsa one of many examples of what the caller is alluding to there, and there are similar cities where the existence of wealthy, selfsufficient black citizens was deemed a threat to the white establishment. Incidents inimilar indiana and ohio in 1906, illinois in 1908, nebraska or arkansas, as he mentioned, and the massacre of the workers who attempted to be unionized. 1919. Nd tennessee in 1919 is known as the red summer as a result of the unrest happening across the nation with the massacres. You have oklahoma in 1921 and florida in 1923, just to think about a brief period. And this is the second kind of major stretch of time where you on blacke attacks citizens and black communities after what happened during the reconstruction period, we have thousands of black men and women lynched. So there are these periods within American History where black progress is met with white violence. So, yes, the caller is absolutely right. , a part ofssor eaton the reason we are talking of this is because President Trump is going to hold his Campaign Rally tonight in tulsa, oklahoma. It is the first of such events since march 2, after which rallies were curved due to the covid 19 pandemic. You can watch that live tonight , online at cspan. Org, and on the free cspan radio app. Professor eaton, what is the reaction in tulsa and around oklahoma to president holding his first post pandemic rally in tulsa, oklahoma . Guest i think the reaction is mixed. It is buried, and it depends on whom you are speaking to. You have a lot of supporters of the president and general and his administration who are excited about the fact that oklahoma was chosen. You have others who are very concerned about what this means for the city, especially as it relates to the Public Health issue, and then you have those who are concerned about what this will mean as it relates to the racial tension that already exists and has been existing in the nation. News, forheard the example, i thought, why . Why tulsa . Why a rally . Pandemic . Ring a originally, when he made the announcement, why on juneteenth . Of course, we know it has been moved, so the only conclusion to that it was an attempt capitalize on the National Attention that was being given to greenwood and the Tulsa Race Massacre on the 99th anniversary of the event, so instead of releasing a statement on social justice, equality, or racial relations, the administration chose a rally during a troubling time. I think the public is concerned because there is really no evidence that these political events have ever been used by this administration to unite our entire country. I know early on there were talks about possibly turning this visit into an Historical Tour related to the massacre. I know i read this morning that the Vice President is supposed to meet with some of the black people, a tulsa, but lot of people are expressing seet concern, and i dont how people could probably think about this any differently than being something very concerning. Host lets go to john, calling from pennsylvania. Good morning. Caller good morning. How are you . Host fine, go ahead. Caller i wish this lady would have followed bernie character yesterday when he was badmouthing the leftwing terrorists antifa or whatever. The greatest menace in this country has been the angry white man with a redneck. 160 eighta city, people killed, and this thing with tulsa, it goes to show you and they were also riots in florida where people were killed in our history, so, this thing about the leftwing terrorists kind of annoyed me, and im glad she is on today. I just wanted to mention the greatest menace in this country is probably the angry white man with a redneck. Host so ahead and respond, professor eaton. You for yourank call and response, caller. I think it was ella baker who said in 1960 eight, it is not the responsibility of the members of the Africanamerican Community to help the nation get things right in terms of racism and stamp out racism, but it is the responsibility of the White Community and members of the White Community, and i think that is a lot of what we are seeing now with the kind of renewed call for changes within this country, and the call for justice, and when you look at screen, on thehe television or pictures in the media, you see a widely diverse group, and so the responsibility is really on those who have historically had more power than others. Host humans rights watch put out a statement where they are calling for reparations for the descendents of the Tulsa Race Massacre. I will read a little bit from the report. This is from the Human Rights Watch. State and local authorities in tulsa, oklahoma, should provide reparations for the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre, when a white mob killed hundreds of black people and destroyed a prominent black neighborhood. They said today they should probably develop and carry out a comprehensive reparations plan, in close consultation with the local community, to address the harm caused by the massacre and its lasting impact. The 66page report, the case for reparations in tulsa, oklahoma a human rights argument, details the destruction of hundreds of people, most of them black, dead and than 1200 blackowned houses burned in tulsas greenwood neighborhoods, then known as black wall street. Human rights watch also describes some of the subsequent policies and Structural Racism that prevented ringwood and the broader north Tulsa Community from driving. They should also pass a bill that would begin to address the ongoing harm from slavery. Professor eaton, do you think the descendents of the Tulsa Race Massacre is a reparations . Guest absolutely. And in the real world, not just on the Television Series or a comic series, like the watch, where they imagine this fight has been successfully won, i do want to note that it is wonderful Human Rights Watch put out that report, but the tulsa race right commission since 2001 has actually been asking for the same thing, and it is in over 200 page document that was , actuallyto the state detailing everything that thatned, and including in were the losses and the justification argument for reparation. So this has been an ongoing legal fight, even actually before that report was published in 2001. Hannibal johnson talked about it street,ok black wall and i think it was published in 1998. That many something of the survivors were asking for , many of the descendents of the survivors were asking for, so, absolutely, and tying it back to the reparations and the larger thement for reparations for formally enslaved. One of the kind of most important moments in American History, the massacre itself, but also the larger conversation about at what point is United States going to take for theirlity technically 200 some odd years, but practically four hundred years of enslavement . Host lets talk to kathleen, calling from new york. Good morning. Caller good morning. My heart is heavy listening to all of this. Uh. Al bombings, uh my heart is heavy. I am tired of the white man turning a blind eye to the dehumanization of black lives in this world. I am tired of hearing people talk about a systemic racism and that long in Law Enforcement does not exist. That is a lie. That retired cop who killed aubrey, he did what he wanted to do that day, killed a black man. Do people think that when he retired and hung up his uniform all of a sudden he started hating black people . No. He was in Law Enforcement for years and god only knows many black lives he took out this earth. I am tired of we the people not getting credit. Are good lawthere enforcement and that when they took the oath, you know, and serve,ore to protect and they upheld that oath. They serve and protect the community with dignity and respect. We know there are good cops in this world. This movement is not about the good. It is about the bad and the ugly because no matter who you are or where you go, or what you do in life, you will find the good, the bad and the ugly. And this movement is about the bad and the ugly. You know, the people that let that seed of hate growing to their heart, were that route grows into the depths of their heart, their mind and their soul. Host go ahead and respond, professor eaton. Guest i definitely understand the caller and where she is coming from in terms of being. Ired as someone who deals with this history on a daily basis, especially in the classroom, and is always very aware of this long historical timeline and seeing these events and assaults well as thebody, as policing, whether it be state sanctioned or in the case of the tulsa massacre, people were deputized to police black bodies. We see this over and over again with the historical timeline, andit is an ongoing fight an ongoing struggle that many people have to participate in, whether they want to or not, so it is very tiring and alsorating, and it is surprising when, for example, now, you look around in the media, and you hear a lot of these companies and others who not recognizeid or realize what the problems were in this nation, let us now Say Something or address this there is not really a moment in American History where people were not aware of it or actively participating in these various different assaults, whether they be actively violent physical assaults, or psychological or emotional and those micro aggressions. Attitude and the feeling of being tired of something that is real, there is a trauma associated with this and eight is always present in the day today, and you have people out there now in another generation who kind of echo the words of Sonja Sanchez when she says in her poem, am i blue . No, i am black and red. We see allies across racial lines are also ready to hopefully right the wrongs. Ist professor eaton, you and were talking earlier that President Trump was originally going to hold his rally on juneteenth, which was yesterday, but it was moved to today. And there has been a lot of renewed interest in juneteenth around the country. Can you talk about juneteenth and the importance of that holiday . Juneteenth is 155 years old, a holiday that has been celebrated across the nation since at least 1866. You have more of a kind of local and Regional Focus in the earlier year coming out of texas, which was his last confederate stronghold and that is why we have the holiday when granger65 goes down to galveston and says, areknow, yes, the enslaved free, and you must release them, even though the emancipation proclamation in 1863 did some of this for some people in some states, you have then this celebration, a jubilee day, where people are saying now we have the opportunity to kind of the foot ofunder this institution of slavery, so this is something that has been celebrated nationwide. Many proclamations have been made. At this point, i think there are 46 states, if i remember correctly that recognize juneteenth as some sort of observance in some way, whether it be a state holiday or recognize its importance in this particular administration that has released proclamations each year for the past three years juneteenthizing that missedrtant, and we have openly in her 90s who has been campaigning for juneteenth to be a National Holiday for over 40 when you think even outside of a National Holiday, why it isnt a federal holiday, it is probably the second most important date within colonial American History, and it would prove that not only the nation does understand and owednize the debt that is to its africana the act freed slaves of the district of columbia and compensated owners up to 300 for each person. So we have known about these emancipation days since before the end of the civil war. It is just amazing juneteenth is getting the attention it is getting now. I definitelyon agree. To the compensation slaveowners, there was a strong sense of obligation to the slaveowners for their economic loss. I do see this also across the western hemisphere, in the colonies in other countries ande slavery existed, across the black atlantic, that there is this compensation to the owners, and a dismissal or disregard for the laborers and victims. Jesse michael is calling from oklahoma city, oklahoma. Michael, good morning. Caller good morning, jesse. Thank you for this program. I was taught in the 1950s and 60s in oklahoma, and i never heard a word about this. It was like 20 years ago, i dont know what happened in the news, it was brought up and it curiosity, and i went to the library and checked out a book and read about it. Very interesting, and more amazing was that no one knew about it. It was just 20 years ago that this became public information. The suppression of yet was just incredible. And i dont think the civil war is over. We are still fighting it. We have a confederate in the white house and we are still that white supremacist civil war in this country. This questionn Tulsa Race Massacre was unheard of is one that comes up a lot. Unheard of, but it is heard of. It is kind of an open secret. There is a history of suppression that takes place immediately after the massacre, and for years that follow. Disregard ofalso a the information that was actually printed within the black press. That is also something to think about, in terms of the ways that even our information is segregated. So you have historians and other scholars who are looking for information in specific places, and not others. I wasf my colleagues say, looking for this information and couldnt find anything until the 1990s, or couldnt find the Tulsa Race Massacre commission submitted their document into thousand one in 2001. A published i historian published something in the 1980s but even he said there was limited in her mission that he was working with. On the other hand, you have firsthand accounts that were published, one by ms. Parrish she wasely after, africanamerican, immediately after the massacre. The naacp covered it. The black press covered it across the nation. Documentsbeen other that were published and or the blackthin readership, i guess i should say. So it goes black to this question of information and have news is distributed, what is suppressed, how it is suppressed. Squeeze in our last couple of callers. Jim is calling from annapolis, maryland. Jim, good morning. Morning. In 1965, a small group of guys got together and set up hud. And they went around the country, tulsa, chicago, detroit, baltimore, d. C. , etc. And they financed, developed, and to this day own and manage those section eight project. There is 42 million blacks in the country today. 30 are doing fabulous, barack winfreys, oprah actors, football players, etc. This 70 living in these hellho the last 50for years have gone nowhere. I dont want to hear about the ben carsons that have gotten out, and so forth. Now, here is what is happening. The same group that owns those projects, and your guest doesnt have a clue who they are, they are not the 95 they are not the 99 , and now these guys own private prisons, so now these guys are going from projects to prisons. You know what barack obama did about the situation . Nothing. He didnt do a thing. Jesse what is your response, professor . School toeaton the prison pipeline is very real. Many people have been championing a change, and will continue to do so. scant speak to the caller statistics. Im not quite sure. I agree with the number that he mentioned, decide on that, we have a lot of serious issues thatn the United States one particular administration is not going to be able to solve. Is the idea that one could pretty impossible. What is important is that we have forward thinking individuals who are concerned country acrossr racial lines, class lines, social lines, as it relates to different historical and current issues. That is where we are. Been looking for and asking for, we, meaning the american people, asking for real change that will affect how we progress as a nation. E rick is calling from newry richmond, ohio. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Village inlittle ohio, richmond ohio. Richmond, ohio. We were part of the underground railroad. A lot of slaves crossed the ohio ohio,from kentucky into and a lot of those guys were sent over to liberia and created a country. So we have all these calls for giving reparations to the slaves. I dont agree with that. Anybody in my immediate family, like my mom and dad and grandparents, we never owned slaves. Areae from an antislavery , so i dont agree with the reparations, that we need to give everybody reparations. Jesse go ahead and response, professor eaton. Professor eaton the benefit members of the american citizenry have as a result of enslavement is great. That, this wasnt my particular family situation or my particular community was not involved, that is used often. While one particular environment may not necessarily align with the ways in which we about thee think history of enslavement, there is still a legacy that is very feeds intoegacy that those whoeges that have been in power have and so it is notave, really possible unless maybe someone is speaking about their no, its just not possible. The fits thatt one has gained as a result of being in this country and not notg a person of color is real. But they are real, we see them every day in terms of economic advancements, you see them in terms of redlining, you see them in terms of education. Family wasones involved, one benefits greatly. We take you live now to tulsa, oklahoma, where President Trump is holding his first Campaign Rally in more than his firsths, since the coronavirus pandemic pandemic shut down much of the country. Nights all right for fighting being
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