A pending society . Threatening institutions . We got a look at it. And thats what we are doing today. Irrelevantcredibly groups with look at, so long as we are looking at the principles that threaten peoples lives. Some of these Extremist Movements come from ideologies that are decades old, others are relatively new. These threats range from to morelized networks structured militia groups. Is oneernment extremism of the Common Threads that we often see overlap with antiblack, antimuslim, bringing these extremists into who areause with others extremist in nature. Together, we have a collective opportunity to discuss the torent Threat Landscape develop an understanding of have a florist in our communities and air my space. And in our mind space. A man in texas was arrested after streaming himself on Facebook Live searching for Law Enforcement officers to ambush. In may and june, a man in california shot and killed a federal protective Service Officer and wounded one more. He wrote the words in blood after carrying out a second murder. Men were arrested while reportedly on their way to inflict violence at a black lives matter protest in las vegas. Arrestedan in oklahoma and found in possession of illegally modified machine guns. All of whom appear to be connected to the movement. The list goes on and on and on. Today that wetant dont lose sight of the ways in which acceleration of movement intersects in our popular and other extremist groups. Often come to mind to groups that weve looked at, we are going to be asking some really critical questions today. Hell done, is what the we do about this . What is Law Enforcement do, what does the federal government do, what can and should social media do . What do we do in a collaborative way, what do we do in a mandatory way . We are going to share responsibility across the public and private sectors. The lives of our Law Enforcement officials are on the line. Citizens of innocent who are congregating in protest are on the line. In so many ways, the future of this country and the constitution are on the line. With that, the chair now recognizes the Ranking Member, the jim demint from north carolina, mr. Walker. The gentleman from north carolina, mr. Walker. Thank you, mr. Chairman. There is no doubt that across the globe there is an uptick in extremist ideology, particularly linked to violent White Supremacy. As a committee created after 9 11, we must focus on the continued jihadist threat. We are seeing the adoption of acceleration is rhetoric with calls to try to get government institutions and Law Enforcement for adherence to commit acts of violence as a means of creating unrest. We see this concept in what the movements, antigovernment groups, and some environmental organizations. The sharing of tactic and propaganda, the spreading of misinformation and conspiracies as well as the celebration of violence. Should start with expressing my sincere condolences to the families of david underwood, a dhs protective Security Officer and a Santa Cruz County deputy that the chairman just mentioned. They were both murdered in the light of duty in late may and early june. I also want to express a hope for the speedy recovery of their colleagues who were injured in these attacks. Be suspects believed to responsible and that arrested and the fbi is conducting a full investigation, including into the links and possible support for the Boogaloo Movement which is an accelerationist term. These attacks are on all americans. Knows like antifa, and i that seems to be a conservative talking point, but its not. The damage they are doing. A reporter my office, i can still see the injuries. There has been a consistent effort by antifa supporters to infiltrate protests to lay siege to government buildings and Law Enforcement. Violencend alone, the has cost the city tens of insecurity dollars, as well as the damage done. These are the kinds of things that we must stand together regardless of the politics. In seattle, there is a core effort to deny the antifa movement. We need to move forward with the reality that antifa is not an organization. We understand that. But it is a movement, and ideology and a call for violence. The people involved in the continued violence around the city are certainly part of his movements. I think thats why this hearing is crucial today. File extremists on all sides, they are attending to hijack the protest on institutional reforms. Some are targeting protesters, some are attacking Police Officers, many are vandalizing government buildings and others are seeking to create these socalled atomics owns. We endeavor to condemn the violence and restore order. I think the witnesses for appearing before the subcommittee today. I look forward to your testimony and i yield back my time. I thank the Ranking Member. A reminder, the subcommittee will operate according to the guidelines laid out by the chairman and Ranking Member. The chair now recognize the chairman from mississippi for an opening statement. In his absence, the chair now recognizes the gentleman from alabama for an opening statement. Theres chairman thompson. Chairman thompson is here, we recognize you for your opening statement. Thank you very much. I thank you for convening this hearing today, and for your leadership on these issues. This committee is known for following the threats wherever they may lead. Today, that brings us here. This hearing provides us with an opportunity to examine the emerging threat of violent antigovernment extremists. I believe todays hearing is the first congressional hearing to focus specifically on the emerging threat of the accelerationists and i applaud chairman rose for examining this issue. It is important that members and the American Public hear from these experts today to understand those emerging threats. Recent attacks and arrests have showcased the threats from individuals affiliated with the Boogaloo Movement, the coalition of extremists who present an immediate danger to Law Enforcement and american people. As our experts have shared in their written testimony, this movement is complex and requires a nuanced understanding. The Boogaloo Network as a whole appears to be largely antigovernment, constantly changing, and drawing followers from many different extremist ideologies. The Common Thread is the desire to accelerate society toward a second civil war. That means that many of them are driven to commit violence. It is imperative the department of Homeland Security and other fellow agencies immediately devote resources toward understanding these emerging threats. Understand that this is a difficult issue, but it is not acceptable for dhs to remain in the dark. Law enforcement officials remain a top target of these individuals and extremists which means it is even more urgent for dhs to produce and disseminate with state and local Law Enforcement so they can stay ahead of the threat. Resources and attention must be appropriately allocated. We should not be swayed by political ends. It goes without saying that Property Damage and any and all violence linked to antifa should be condemned. Public reporting arrest records, the governments own reporting indicates that rightwing extremists pose a more urgent and lethal threat to americans. Who here today we are here today we will hear today from those experts about the threats facing americans. How the violent fringes of these movements have utilized to their advantage. This has been a major concern of mine over the last congress, and one of the reasons i introduced 4782, the National Commission on Online Platforms and Homeland Security act that would seek to understand how bad actors including extremists exploit Online Platforms. This bipartisan piece of legislation was voted out of his 2019. Tee in october, this committee will continue to shed light on how social media platform are exploited and also Companies Accountable when they fail to enforce the policies set forth to combat extremism. Jordanciate those of us yesterday today and thanked chairman rose for convening this hearing and i yield back. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I now welcome our panel of extraordinary witnesses. First, one of the foremost experts on antigovernment extremism and militia groups. , second, dr. Heidi byurick executive Vice President of the Global Project against hate and extremism. More than two decades of experience fighting extremism. Our third and final witness is jack donahue, a fellow at brokerage University Breckenridge university. Experienceeadth of from his time in nypd. Thank you for your Extraordinary Service to new york city with the men in blue. The greatest Police Department not only in the history of the country, but i believe the history of the world. Thank you for your Extraordinary Service. Witnessbjection, the full names will be instated in the record. I now ask each witness to make a statement for five minutes. Thank you. Chairman rose, Ranking Member water, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for giving the opportunity to testify today. The remarks and opinions im going to express are my own. Im here to talk about the militant segment of the antigovernment Extremist Movement. People who want to change or topple the country by force or threat of force. Like any large movement, this group go through cycles and must follow in the 2016 election, all right and White Supremacy groups, there is a meteor rise. Militant extremists either joined these movements or when relatively quiet. In general, the approve of the current administration. However, renew conversations about gun control laws, threats from the covid19 pandemic, extreme divisiveness plaguing the Upcoming Elections have triggered a recent reverb. The movement is not monolithic. The oath keepers membership include Police Officers and military veterans has shifted from armed standoffs to providing support to Small Businesses violating state harm pandemic orders. And organizing armed guards to protect neighborhoods from violence. The 3 ers is a hybrid between a Militia Network and a gun club. This group leaves they only needed 3 of americans to overthrow the current u. S. Government. Each subgroup is independent of the others and there is no leadership for structures. It has kept them from becoming a force. The militia is a much smaller segment of the business. Scattered throughout the country, engaged in armed training, have a relatively organized structure and even though many states prohibit their activities, they operate with impunity. The idea of a second American Revolution where armed patriots rise up and overthrow a tyrannical government has been the dream of extremists for decades. Most call this the second American Revolution. Members of the weapons board renamed it the boogaloo which later turned into big luau and big igloo. Supporters were hawaiian shirts under their body armor and the look went viral. Other militants started copying the shirts and jargon. For most it was just an in joke, a tribal aesthetic that separated those who were in the know from those who were not. Most boogaloo members are libertarian anarchists who hate cops. The goal is to hasten the collapse of the government through attacks on police. These are the major players, how they react to Current Events raises many red flags. Im worried that any attempt to pass guncontrol regulation could trigger violence. This could include red flag laws, bans on certain types of rifles or any legislation that is viewed as a foot the door leading to gun confiscation. Another potential issue is the covid19 pandemic which is placing significant stress on extremist groups. If states return to lockdown status, i am concerned that individuals and small groups will lash out quietly against the government, Law Enforcement, medical professionals, essential workers, contact tracers and medical infrastructure. Some militants driven by conspiracy theories have already turned to armed resistance and have taken up guns to protect Business Owners who want to violate stayathome orders. Michigan has been a hotspot for such activity, and in may the state had to cancel legislative sessions because of the threat. I am also concerned for the upcoming election that will spark violent events if the president loses his reelection bid. The risk that worries me most, i am concerned that there will be a shootout at one of the black lives matter protests. There are too many guns at these events held by too many groups with conflicting goals. You can find the oath takers taking to the streets to protect police or businesses from antifa for when boogaloo joined forces with black lives matter against the police, adding the National Guard and federal agencies and rights the premises groups along with a growing number of leftwing militants and volunteer armed guards, there is the potential street war growing. There are militant groups and individuals willing to shootout or bomb police and protesters just to get that war started so they can use the chaos to accelerate their own plans for revolution. These groups know they need a catalyst, a big event. They need a ruby ridge or waco so they can be the next mcveigh. Most are waiting for the big event but there are some that will do what they have to to force this occurrence. Thank you for your time. Chairman rose thank you for your testimony. We will now recognize mr. Donohue. Thank you very much. Good morning members of the subcommittee and chair thompson. I am john donohue, recently retired threestar chief from the new york city Police Department for 32 years of patrol, intelligence and strategy. The opinions im giving are my own. I am testifying to discuss safety concerns and challenges for Law Enforcement made by the growing phenomenon of militia extremism and the power of online movements to influence violent actions domestically. The use of social media is documented. These platforms are mobile and ubiquitous. In the United States, we cherish the right for freedom of speech and assembly and social media has been embraced by many to share ideas and opinions on any topic at any time. What is recently observable from social media data is that there is an exponential growth in participation in the cyber social domain coalesced around a revolutionary and extremist themes at either ends of the ideological spectrum. Those extremists have Law Enforcement squarely in their sights. In the early stages of the isis caliphate to motivate some youth and disaffected to support devices, we know the recruitment started on the social media platforms and moved to encrypted communications to shield criminal conversations from authorities. The same cycle is happening domestically with militia movements on the far right and far left. A report i coauthored in may on the Network ContagionResearch Institute shows that on social media memes become viral and evolved, plant hateful and revolutionary ideas in the public eye often disguised as inside jokes. The boogaloo code word for revolution is an example of that movement. In protests over the lockdowns, followers played out their inside jokes, wearing hawaiian shirts and carrying semi automatic rifles. Memes shared on the Message Boards game if i assaults on Law Enforcement, encouraging violence through jargon known in the gaming committee. While it appears in a forthcoming report, we had records showing antiplease messaging and other farleft media spaces where they have seen special growths in the most recent period of exponential growth in the most recent period of unrest in america. These antigovernment messages have broken into Mainstream Media on facebook and twitter. Memes advocating murder of Law Enforcement and slogans found on the internet used by the farleft were scrawled on defaced monuments and buildings across america. Memes instructing peaceful protests that can be used as tactical subterfuge for violent action are being widely circulated on social media. What is apparent regardless of ideology is that assaults on and the murder of Law Enforcement that occurred during the recent civil unrest were motivated in part by the themes in the memes and the slogans. It is not unusual for police to be the subject of protest. There has always been inherent tension between Law Enforcement and protest because police are the most visible representatives of government and people are protesting against us. Protest activity is a constitutional right. We in Law Enforcement are sworn to protect that right regardless of the contents of the speech or whatever controversy no matter how controversial it may seem with very limited exceptions. Another right is to bear arms. Some states permit open carry. Others outlaw that practice. Both have withstood constitutional scrutiny with exceptions. I highlight these rights because in real life on the streets when tens of thousands of people are assembled, explaining the finer points of rationality does not work. That is why police are at an disadvantage and challenged when they become the targets of protests, as was more recently observable on the right and left. Intelligence gathering brings its own tension and limitations. Law enforcement needs to prepare for the safety of these incidents. That is smart government and there are safeguards in place to prevent overage. What Law Enforcement needs and what is out there come from an open source. When people use encrypted communications, police have zero visibility into those channels and that is where tactics and opportunities for confrontations are shared. Law enforcement has a tough task when policing protest events in the best of times. When protesters arrived intent on violence and are carrying semi automatic weapons, the stakes grow exponentially. Militia members know this and Sees Opportunities to amplify their message through direct confrontation with police. What can be done despite social media efforts to minimize the ability of extremist messages, they persist. Social Media Companies are not in the position to identify those who encourage violence. Law enforcement must remain vigilant. The timeframe may be remarkably short. Law enforcement is the last line of defense against extremist who mobilizes violence and it may be their own lives that they save because they become the ultimate target. The outcomes of a militia and revolutionary extremists online movements are not protectable. The time for acknowledging it and rapidly working to preserve Civil Society is upon us and i thank you for having this hearing. Chairman rose thank you for your testimony. I now recognize dr. Beirich. Chairman rose, Ranking Member walker, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to testify today. It is a great honor. My name is heidi beirich, i am the cofounder of the Global Project against hate and extremism. I have been researching for more than 20 years. Todays hearing is of the utmost importance. We face an increasingly violent Extremist Movement composed of an incendiary mix of White Supremacists neonazis and the boogaloo. All are interested in bringing about the collapse of democracy through violence. This is what accelerationism is. The accelerators, these extremists are sharing hateful ideologies for correcting internationally in a way that was not before possible. This group is at the defeat of Tech Companies that refuse to express the hate and content on their platforms. The fbi considers the risk of violent as on the same footing as those of Foreign Terrorists like isis. Dhs, the state department, Government Agencies and independent experts all agree farright extremism is a metastasizing problem that this country will be dealing with for the long term. The tragedies in pittsburgh, el paso and christchurch, new zealand are testament to the devastation inspired by these movements abroad. Right now the movements are taking advantage of the pandemic and Racial Justice protests to spread hate about those they blame for covid19 and to attack Peaceful Protesters and Police Officers. It is likely the violence will intensify as we approach the november elections. Descriptions of groups and Movement Overall are laid out in detail in my written testimony, so if i could take the opportunity to offer recommendations. Nothing is going to stop the growth and violent activity if we dont accept that the Online Platforms are driving extremism. Much as hitler used what was then the new technology of the radio to unleash his genocidal views, extremists today do the same with the web. In 2015 the number of perpetrators of terrorist incidents were exposed to violent extremist ideologies almost entirely online rather than in the real world began to rise substantially. That was all forms of extremism. Online platforms are where recruitment occurs and strategy is sophisticated. There is a double standard with how Online Platforms treat content produced by White Supremacists versus islamic extremist. For the latter, deplatforming is the accepted strategy for the latter and practiced by Tech Companies. It would be inconceivable for social media platforms to allow isis propaganda to go unchecked or be monetized, but thats whats happening with White Supremacy. It wasnt until 2017 that Tech Companies began to take hate seriously and ramp up enforcement. It has not been enough. A facebook civil rights group, dozens of youtube videos by the International White nationalists network that were monetized. Bringing ad revenue from businesses and Political Campaign ads. Even after notifying youtube, most of it is still up. If we are to stop the spread of acceleration is meant violence, and chairman roses transactional white supremacist extremism reviews that would directed dhs to disseminate terrorist threat assessment violent extremist groups. Thats a good threat as well. Veryld suggest that we be careful in providing more legal authorities to Law Enforcement before understanding what the impact might be. Too often when we have increased have been used against marginalized people to violate civil rights. Sensible measures like banning ghost guns could be useful here. I would like to say thank you for having today. I think all the witnesses for their extraordinary testimony. I would remind the subcommittee members they each have five minutes to question the panel. I now recognize myself for questions. I want to move away all the noise and get a sense from you, where do we measure this threat against fundamentalism right now jihadist fundamentalism right now, and where do you see this potentially going if we do not act . I raised the comparisons between of violent jihadi recruitment and the techniques that we use to motivate people to violence. And that is certainly true here. And what we have seen is the motivation to violence can happen at any moment. Concern that we have is that that violence and triggering the events that have happened across the United States and even in christchurch. Go to show that the power of what is happening online and the power of the messages are so verlander that they make sense to certain people. And that is where we need to have the ability to have visibility into those networks and the people who are motivated to violence. My biggest concerns are essentially twofold. What jj described which is this incendiary situation that you find at the recent protests where people are heavily armed, easily triggered and weve already seen Police Officers shot dead and plots against protesters that happened in las vegas. Casualty attacks like we saw in el paso and pittsburgh , thehe list could go on White Supremacists have come to believe that they need to use terrorism, violence to bring down systems of government, multicultural democracies basically, to stop a white genocide. That has motivated most of the big mass casualty attacks and that motivation is not going to go away because demographics are shifting in much of the western world and thats what they view as a threat. And if we dont intercept how this propaganda is spread on mainstream platforms where it allows for recruiting, im just afraid the next christchurch could be around the corner anywhere here or abroad. I think we are facing an uphill battle. Youve got social media platforms where people can basically post propaganda. They recruit. They are actively recruiting younger male members. But then from that point on they move into private groups and from there they move into places like discord and from there they cherry pick who they think are serious actors and they move into someplace like signal. Trying to police this i think would be impossible. Biggergot rid of the propaganda groups on facebook, you would put a dent in it. I dont think theres a large risk of these groups ever come together and forming a private army, but i am very concerned of small cell terrorism. Are at risk,sters Police Officers are at risk and possibly infrastructure. I know that in las vegas one of their plots was to take down the grid. The power grid during a protest so that they could fire on protesters and the chaos would be horrible because it would be pitchdark. So i think mass casualty is an issue. I dont think it will be largescale or coordinated too much in different cities. But i think the possibility for someone to have learned for example from the las vegas shooter, getting up high and shooting down into a crowd is a very big concern. Thank you. Mr. Walker, you are a. You are up. I want to start with mr. Donahue if i could. Nypdover three decades of experience, you are uniquely qualified to talk about why Law Enforcement is a common target of violent extremist groups. Can you add to the testimony you have already provided about why this is the case. How the current environment is impacting Law Enforcement in their families. In addition to what i had said in my prepared remarks and lawestimony, the impact on enforcement obviously is great. What we have seen are the attacks directly to be theational, to indicate the intention is to attack most visible arm of government which is police and that impact on Law Enforcement over the last month and a half or so has been dramatic. There is always a concern both from a tiring out, from a how can they continue to respond to repeated negative attacks on Law Enforcement, whether just the tollcal or the emotional it winds up taking with Police Officers and sheriffs in the country due to those long hours to being exposed repeatedly the negative Media Attention thats played on it. And the reason is because we, Police Officers, Law Enforcement, are the most visible representatives of the government. And we always look to be as an arm of whoever is being protested. Your research on leftwing groups and anarchists, is there anything you can tell us about this work. I dont want to tip my hand before the research is complete. There has been an exponential both farleft and anarchist social media participation. Antipolice and antigovernment. Cautioned about Gun Legislation, if any Gun Legislation was passed or if the election did not reelect President Trump, you are concerned of i guess various Different Levels of civil unrest , a war on the streets. Is that just something you are seeing from your research . Can you unpack that for me a little bit . Issues. Are different gun control and the reelection of President Trump. Gun control has been a hot issue for antigovernment extremism for decades. Thats one of the factors pushed mcveigh to move forward was a restriction on assault rifles. Its just a hot button. Its one of the very few things that can all agree on. Its one of the few things that can bring them altogether. There was proposed legislation in virginia at the beginning of the year and a gun rally to protest it. Normally a rally with guns is going to draw 200 to 500 people. This particular rally brought in 22,000. It is a hot issue and most gun owners are not violent extremists, but there are a number in the antigovernment extremist world who talk about if this is going to happen, im going to unleash. The election of President Trump is a second issue. Have beenhese guys very pleased with trump. They support him. Hats andee the mag a the trump signs. They want him to continue and they have talked about civil war now for years if he does not continue. Thank you. I didnt know if there was anything recent you had seen that would expedite this. He touched on the direct targeting of Law Enforcement i extremists. By extremists. What additional tools and authorities do they need . First of all, we should understand that these movements, the militias and so on have for years been targeting Law Enforcement. They have killed dozens of Law Enforcement officials across the United States. So that has to be understood. Law enforcement is viewed as the arm of the government and it is sort of the first line level of attack. So cops are in a various very precarious position when it comes to these movements. And we should support the difficult work and the threats that Law Enforcement face. Two Law Enforcement officers were killed in california recently during the Racial Justice protests and targeted by. Hese boogaloo boy folks i think when it comes to Law Enforcement dealing with these threats, there needs to be a study of enhancing authorities for them. There are a lot of people out there calling for domestic terrorism statute for example. Proposals including from the chairman about applying the Foreign Terrorist Organization designation to International White supremacist networks that would allow Law Enforcement to use a whole lot of other tools than they do right now to combat this threat. I think these are avenues that should be investigated. I do worry deeply about the civil rights implications if those tools arent used in the right way. Thats why i talk about the need for study. I think these things should be discussed and on the table. Thank you. I will yield because we are over the time. I now recognize the chairman of the full committee, chairman thompson. Thank you for your extraordinary leadership. Witnesses for their expert testimony. One of the challenges that weve been working with is how do we get the various platforms to assume and enhance responsibility for managing content, respecting civilrights and civil liberties, but some of the things that we see being enhances therther militias and other extremists. To carry forth their message. I guess i want each witness to kind of to what extent should we hold those companies thatnsible for the content is pushed out on their various platforms. Chief, if you want to start off with a. And we will go to ms. Birch then miss mcnabb. Enhance responsibility for social Media Companies. Its interesting when you link i speak aboutusly thevalue of the tower of social media platforms to serve as an opportunity to share ideas and free speech. But they don the rise did. And the speech thats being shared on a number of social media platforms obviously goes to provoke the assaults that we are seeing taking place on Law Enforcement and jeopardizing others that are not involved in the protests. To whichhe extent social Media Companies have placed in positions to monitor that speech and to ask their communities to help police whats on the platforms has gone somewhat in the right direction. However, its a game of whack a mole. For each of those type of extremist speech and or videos that you see being shown and and theing shown content of what other people are saying and amplifying negative messages really becomes a complication. Part of it is really empowering the communities that are on the platforms themselves in coordination with the companies, to police them internally. Its not a question of whether police, Law Enforcement can do that. Thats not possible. As diffuse as the internet is and the people using it, its got to follow a little bit on them as well as the companies. Thank you. Dr. Birch. I should have mentioned your plan for a commission to look into this, i apologize. The process thats going on here for too long now is civil rights organizations screaming and yelling and criticizing the Tech Companies and public and then having sort of incremental moves to improve the situation when it comes to White Supremacy. I believe that its going to take a lot more than that to really clean these companies up. If facebook can submit itself to a civilrights audit which then finds that it still has major problems on this front as well as others, then this strategy isnt enough and i would suggest that Congress Called the Tech Companies to account for whats in their terms of service and how they are enforcing those terms of service because at this point most of them claim not to monetize hate content, not to host a lot of aspects of White Supremacy and yet we keep finding it so much that facebook was found to have dozens and dozens of neonazi bands on the system recently. Its time for congress to use its investigative powers in some way to call the companies to account, ask them about their procedures, what they are doing, how they do it and the raise the bar app is modeled very much on what the European Union has done which is create monitoring exercises were outside actors look at whats going on with hate content and reports are used the push the Tech Companies to do better. Something like that would be good. It really shouldnt be up to civilrights organizations that are small and underfunded to have to play this role in our society. It is just simply asking too much. Thank you. Thank you. Im going to second that. One problem is these organizations chase the news. So if theres a sudden influx of news about the boogaloos, facebook comes in and does a purge of some of the more violent groups. The problem is the news doesnt often know whats going on in private groups, direct messages and even some of the public pages. I spent a lot of time developing contacts in this world so i can get into their private groups. What they post is shockingly bad, but its because the news is not in these private groups, they dont report it so facebook just lets it fester. Im just using facebook as an example. When there is a violent event, the first place i go is facebook to see who is responding, who credit, whose laughing about it, would do itwe better. The Boogaloo Movement isnt really a movement. Its a dress code. Its a way of talking. Its jargon. The people who belong to it came from other extremist groups usually on facebook. It might have been militia, White Supremacy. They picked it up somewhere and donned that hawaiian shirt and yet they are treated as a separate movement. You are ignoring the underlying areas that they came from. Has a page with 551,000 followers. They say some pretty violent things in the comments. I can report them to facebook and i have never had them deleted. Theres a lot of attention paid to the social media company, they dont really have any incentive to do anything at all. So its not really up to civilrights groups or the news to be able to monitor all of these things. There has to be some external group. Some committee, something that can keep an eye on it. We are looking at that partreal concerning on our because as you said, chief donahue and others. As long as im making money off this product, its hard to pull back. Remember,ose, if you we asked a simple question about how much of your revenue stream is devoted to managing content. Like i dont believe you asked that question. And all we are trying to do is if you are serious about it, then you speak with your resources. Think having government come in and run a private business, i think we have an obligation to the public to make justthat these companies cant monetize hate and other things and claim free speech as the reason they are not doing anything. Much. Nk you very you have been gracious with your time and i yield back. Thank you very much. From recognize ms. Watkins michigan. Thanks for having this hearing. Midmichigan and the issue of extremism and hate groups instances and incidents with those hate groups has been on the rise and just very recently from the coronavirus lockdown weve had significant repeated protests in my district in lansing, michigan, protesting on all sides. Protesting the lockdown that our governor is put in place but also protesting in response to the killing of george floyd and weve seen a fourfold increase in the state of michigan in the past year and a half in instances of hate whether its graffiti, violence. One of the things that im is since theut lockdown started we have seen the presence of a number of groups, we have 27 hate groups that are present in the state of michigan and one of them that has been on the rise is the proud boys. Wondering chief donahue if you could speak to this group in any way. Top ofe putting signs on their cars, they are wearing vests that indicate proud boys. Theres a discussion in the district about whether they are a hate group could you talk to us about that group and what we know about them . I would have to defer. I do not know the Proud Boys Group specifically. Perhaps one of my fellow panelists do. While i was working at the southern poverty law center, we added that organization to our list of hate groups largely on the basis of very ugly antimuslim thinking. Boys in some way are a forerunner to the kind of activism we are seeing in the Boogaloo Boys. Its a group we had its pretty militant. A lot of inside jokes. A certain particular kind of luck. At they are showing up places like these protest movements. I will just say the Canadian Military just this week and its members for being part of the proud boys. So that gives you a sense of how seriously another government is the organization views the organization. I really think the problem right now for the violence seems to be from glue folks, people connected to that. I think there have been like seven different plots involving them, six or seven involving Boogaloo Boys that could have led to a pretty terrible situation like what they might have pulled off in las vegas. So i would focus on them more. Protest in march 31 front of the Lansing Police location. It was in response to the george floyd murder, but there was a number of armed men in hawaiian shirts who showed up at that protest. We didnt have any incidents but they were photographed at the scene. Talk more about what we can expect from folks on the ground. The problem with the Boogaloo Boys as they are not a cohesive movement. You could have a blue boys that are White Supremacists and want to harm the george floyd protesters. You could also have Boogaloo Boys that are antipolice, not racist and they are siding with the protesters at the george floyd protests. Could in a bizarre world have two boogaloo groups shooting at each other. Just being able to see the hawaiian shirt, you cant prejudge why that person is there and what they want to accomplish. Donahue, i held an event with the local sbi because of the rise of an instance of hate in michigan generally and in my district. They talked about this letter of escalation. You see these groups talking online and maybe there is graffiti and nonviolent incidents. Can you talk about trends we have seen on that . Certainly. I spoke about how people are recruited online and what we are talking about is the viral nature of memes. People online are creating and sharing. Then when people modify and shift their dialogue from what was something that may have been an inside joke or something thats funny and then start showing things that are more violent and i can talk to specific instances more recently and the protests were police were involved. , a cab is some terms one of them. The terminto itself means all cops are best turns, but there were memes that were turned into police cars on fire and the term was morphed into that meme to as crispy as bacon. You can see how the visuals of the recent unrest go towards modifying and amplifying a message of violence. Thats how that happens. Thank you mr. Chairman. I think im out of time. We will do a second round of questioning and we will start off by recognizing. Much mr. You very chairman. Im out in the field. I hope you can hear me and see me. Inare suffering from being epicenter now, something you have experienced of covid19. But this is a very important hearing and i thank you very much for holding it. We have seen these kinds of intrusions in the opposition to the vietnam war and a number of other incidents that we have indulged in. I want to start off by asking the witnesses if they would tell me what would be the ultimate result of not dealing with these Fringe Groups who can characterize important protests were people are protesting from their heart and from their beliefs in this country, from their belief in democracy and peaceful change, what would be the plight of the nation without addressing these particular elements directly . Directly, say legislative fixes, continuous oversight like this committee is doing. And i would ask each witness to provide their response. And i particularly speak about glue and proud boys and other groups that have been known to do this in other eras of the history of the United States. The end result is we all believe in the constitutional democracy and our republic. And the ability to protest with righteous rage is important. But this is petitioning the government. And saying seeing that what we are seeing is violence that is coming out of peaceful protests or being usurped at peaceful protests where people are petitioning the government for the right types of change and for acceleration is purposes. You can have a fine discussion about your Constitutional Rights when theres tens of thousands of people protesting but we need to have that ability preserved. Civility is the thing we need to have at protests and thats lacking in many instances when we have acceleration nests show up with guns intent on violence and occupation whereas righteous rage that is shown so that we can have change in government where its appropriate as opposed to violent revolution is what were talking about and thats where Police Become kind of straight in the headlines. We need to learn from our past. We need to learn from our mistakes. We need to move beyond that. There is a path forward but its not through violent insurrection. Something tot do address the spread of this material online, the rise of these movements whether thats with Law Enforcement enhancements, research, oversight, i think that what we are facing is essentially more as terrorist attacks like we saw in el paso at the walmart. Not just here in the United States but probably in other countries because White Supremacy is flourishing abroad. Rise inoing to see more hate crimes much like weve seen. Uring this pandemic see moreing to terrorists taking advantage of Current Conditions whether that is directly targeting protesters which has already happened. Cops have been killed by members of these Extremist Movements. There are other scary things neonazis who claim that they are going to use people infected with covid to infect others. This is a really scary thing. As a huge amount of people unfortunately who do not accept multiracial l2 cultural democracies and dont like these systems and dont like our changing demographics and theyre willing to use violence to stop it. Mr. Donahue. I went first. Im sorry. Fear is that there will be acts of terrorism at active protest places. It will put a damper on people willing to go there. It will make people afraid to go into the streets and protests and thats terrible for our system of democracy. Im also afraid that we are coming up on a street war. There are way too many guns at large protest events held by people with very differing views and there is a lot of paranoia. Some people bring it as a defensive mechanism, some people bring it as an aggressive one. You never know who is who until the shooting starts. Im terrified that theres going to be issued out at one or more of these events and that will put a damper on future protests. And that is a dreadful situation. Its very difficult to stop the flow of these groups because they have a voice. But there is no counter voice. We shouldnt be waiting to see if a Homeland SecurityResearch Memo is leaked before we know what the governments view is on these groups. I would like to see some form of talkingapers put out about who the groups are. Right now i just wait for the leaks to come out. That should be public record. What i got from this is that Domestic Intelligence is important to inform us to be able to protect our citizens. We have seen homeowners stand in front of their homes with guns misinterpreting protesters. How deep should we begin to attitudete speech and legislatively . Think we need to modernize our perception of how we interact so that different groups are not demonized. Obviously these people whose views i find repugnant have First Amendment rights. Earlier think as i said that congress has oversight responsibility to find out what the heck is going on in the social media world on this front. If companies are allowed to write their own terms of service, it seems to me that our government has a right to find out whether they are being enforced, how they are enacted. Because we dont live in the same world where somebody said terrible things about lack people or muslims, that voice only carry to a few other people. Now millions of people are potentially the target and we know that young white males have been sucked into the ranks of these movements, some of them eventually committing Mass Violence because of the proliferation online. Somebody needs to pressure the companies because for all those [inaudible] thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I yield back. Thank you for this hearing. Its very important. For yourou extraordinary leadership on this issue. We recognize mr. Walker for the second round of questions. If we can have some quick responses here. Each of youays, highlight the importance of tracking extremist content and violence on social media. Mr. Donahue calls for the creation of a social media norad or something. Can you explain what type of access and authorities you think the government or individual Law Enforcement agencies should have to track certain social media posts . Do you think you have sufficient authority to do this now . I hesitate to give police more authority to monitor and review things said by citizens. Its a problem area. It can be abused. Unfortunately we are still on this left right idea whereas we should be looking at this as violent fringe. I think police have a little bit of a blind spot for rightwing that they dont have four left and i think they need to be looking at right wing even more than left at this moment. Can you unpack that for me just a little bit more . When you say they have a blind spot . Look at any video of a street protests. For example in portland or seattle, you have a line of Police Officers separating leftwing protesters and rightwing protesters. If you watch, the police have their backs to heavily armed people standing behind them and they are facing leftwing with the assumption that leftwing is whats going to harm them. Where is the people standing behind them have some pretty rabid antipolice ideas as well. Theres a number of Police Officers for example 3 tattoos who are wearing oath keepers patches. These are extremist groups. Police need to be aware that some of these extremist groups want to kill them and thats unfortunately not really coming through. There needs to be a counter voice. There needs to be information coming out of Homeland Security or fbi, i dont know what, that explains these are the violent groups, these are what they are capable of so police have some ability to discern rightwing protesters from rightwing extremists. Its a problem. I spent the better part of 20 two different administrations trying to convince federal Law Enforcement that the threat from rightwing extremists should not be abandoned. Of course after 9 11 people were horrifically concerned about al qaeda, now isis. That is still important. Looking at right wing was essentially dropped. There was a division of dhs of people who created intel on rightwing extremism that was shut down in the early years of the obama administration. I think it would be very helpful to find out exactly what the federal government is doing and what authorities they have on it comes to rightwing extremism. Mention extremist content and social media as a whole other its from the left or the right as far as what kind of tools or Access Authority should have in doing so. You have anything to speak to that . Reason im saying this is the facts are right now that rightwing extremism is the bigger problem. If we were talking about the 1960s i would not debate that there was mass leftwing violence. The focus has to be there. It could change tomorrow, but right now thats the problem. Mr. Donahue . I think no side and i hate to on that example, but no one the spectrum has a monopoly on hate or violence. I think there are authorities that exist within the federal government with guidelines on Domestic Intelligence. The fbis Domestic Intelligence operations guide and i believe in my former position in the nypd we are under federal Court Monitor ship for the intelligence investigations and gathering that weve engaged in in the in the past there has been overreach. Having been an Intelligence Officer i understand the importance of it and how it can prevent violence and injury and death. Weve seen in and highranking Police Officials being beaten over the head, sustaining serious injuries. We know there is no one side. When you look at the events that happened in california with the deaths that you mentioned agents of the federal and sheriffs deputies are incredibly painful for Law Enforcement to see and we need to have the support through dhs and the intelligence training and authorities at the real regional at the level. You mentioned the trusted broker ship i was talking about. We should have more conversations about that because that is understanding the entire sphere of whats happening on the cyber social domain. Specifically when it comes to violence. I know the dhs is expanding programs, hiring new people. Maybe at some point we can do an in person hearing to get an update on some of that work. Thank you again. I see my time has expired. I yield back. Mr. Walker, i completely agree. That is something we should absolutely pursue. Extremism is now threatening the lives of our Law Enforcement officials cost the country. Made a commitment and i respect you cannot politicize our efforts, extremism is affecting peoples Constitutional Rights to congregate and be heard. This extremism is undeniably amplified and put on steroids by social media. Question is this very simply to our witnesses. Anythingss does not do to crack on what is happening across the spectrum, are we putting the lives of Law Enforcement officials and lawabiding americans unnecessarily at risk . The answer is yes. Whether it is longterm remains to be seen. It may just be the groups build and build without any dampening effect and they engage in random acts of violence at protests or whatever and then they may turn out but the longterm is unknown. Short term i think we are looking at mass casualties. It could bee three, 50. It could be protesters. It could be cops. It could be pressed. It could be medical workers. It could be anybody. As long as there is chaos, these groups will thrive. They will do what they have to do to bring chaos to the situation. I think if you do nothing, people will die. I agree with jj. If you do nothing to try to stop the trends leading to all this proliferating especially in the online space, we are going to have exactly what jj described. Clear that the tactics and the rhetoric is being turned up and as i said in my prepared remarks we are watching and we need to acknowledge that we need to preserve Civil Society and i believe Congress Needs to act. Politicians often get lost in my new ship. We they are unanimous in the fact that if we do not act as congress to address the rampant increasing extremism and america, ifivity in we do not gather the courage to act, Law Enforcement and lawabiding american citizens will die. When that happens we have no excuse. Putncerely hope we can hyper politics aside and act together to figure out how we can do something. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but is something is to be signed into law democrats and republicans have to agree. Toh that we will go on another round of questions. Thank you. Cheap donahue, i just wanted to continue the line of questioning i had. Highranking Police Officer and chief are many you talked about how the escalation goes from an inside joke to more extreme on the internet. For the people of michigan, can you talk about when a hops off the internet and becomes vandalism, harassment, and potentially violence . We know some examples you have talked about that there is a ladder. There is a road people travel before they perpetrate real violence. I was hoping you could walk through what that looks like in tock way. I think it defies a logical order. There was a report a few years back that identified the potential risk factors for radicalization to violent extremism, and written in the context of the experiences of canada for. K. , people who were seeking to support violent extremism abroad. Say i am ant to social scientist. That otherxamples on, buthave weighed in among them what you can see are people who have a desire for status or want to belong, for people who desire action or adventure, for people who have serious grievances that feel vder threat and have an us ersus them attitude. Those are part of the toxics to that can not necessarily contribute to radicalization and violence. Where parents, community members, members of faith, and potentially people on the Online Community can help support and identify those moving from radicalization of thoughts to motivation to extremism and violence. Saide have said before, what happened at the synagogue in pittsburgh went from a web hosting moments postingntering web moments before entering the doors. I am going in and proceeded to do so. The timeframe from left of action to right of action is very short and requires observation from many. Thank you. I yield back. Thank you. Ms. Jacqueline. I want to follow my line of houghts expanded previously. Donahue justr. Said about the social media right before the synagogue killing. Matterknow black lives in the movement is a civil rights movement. Movementenerational that has drawn the attention of the nation. 67 of the American Public, not len, but allot americans understand black lives matter. X, but alln americans understand black lives matter. Lack of understanding and presence in the government looking at these accelerators can interfere with the election, can be dangerous for people going to vote, in order to provoke something catastrophic. What is your response to the importance of the government using resources, understanding, whereing able to know these accelerants are as we move into these very important times . I think that is a very important point you are making. The Racial Justice movement, the black lives matter movement, is a particular target of these organizations. If you are a white supremacist, you do not care for Racial Justice and these are people you want to stop from expressing views and reforming american democracy. The government needs to be paying attention to this. Law enforcement investigative agencies and so on need to be watching these movements carefully, monitoring where they are getting into violence in the online space. They need to work with academics and those who study these movements to keep on top of these trends. I feel strongly the government needs to bring online oversight to pressure the companies to be better on these fronts. They claim to take this down, but it keeps popping up. I think those are important and really be on it in months leading up to the election. In 2018, there were four terrorist attacks in just a few weeks. We could be facing Something Like this coming up as we approach november. Thank you. She is correct. In terms of 2018 it allows candidates to really take advantage of the divide that is going on, or attempting to be going on, in this country. The Second Amendment has been used as an instigator to divide people. Nobody has challenged the Second Amendment, and my knowledge, in the United StatesCongress Since i served. Amend the constitution. What role do guns have in the provoking of the Second Amendment along with the hate thech potentially impacting elections going forward. How important is it for resources and understanding to play into this as well as a response to gun safety laws that have been promoted . Apologies, i lost my connection for the last five minutes. I am just logging back in. Play inrole would guns the approaching elections with accelerants, the provoking of the Second Amendment, meaning using the Second Amendment as an excuse against people who want just gun safety . All of these issues provoking what we would want to be Peaceful Elections in 2020, but accelerants would use these components to disrupt elections. What i said before is there were terrorist acts during the 2018 election. Skewing people to believe you need a gun toting advocate to win as opposed to somebody who wants to bring the nation together. What does that do in adding to the approach to disrupting Peaceful Demonstrations . Guns bring power. Power an ordinary person would not otherwise have and some people are abusing that power. They are using guns to intimidate and, in the worst case, they will use guns to kill. It is not just guns. The boogaloos arrested from las vegas were planning on bombing people. Another recent arrest was a car bomb. Another was a man who wanted to blow up a hospital with a car bomb. It is not just guns. They are just visible and intimidating. If anything is going to cause protesters to be afraid to go out, it is the presence of a large armed group. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I think it is clear this hearing is vital for actions that should be taken, in particular taken by the government. They cannot sit idly by. They cannot be leaning and giving indication of one group over the other and particularly groups like boogaloo over protesters. I know we are in covid19, but i look forward to moving on some of these issues before the november election. We need to take a strong stand against these accelerants. I yield back. It is clear there is a massive intersection between protecting Law Enforcement officials, protecting the rights of millions of people to be heard as they call for Racial Justice in this country, and protecting the rights of our constitution. That will definitely require real action on our part. Thank you. Protecting all americans, thank you. I think the witnesses for their testimony and the members for their questions. The members of the subcommittee may have additional questions. Respondhat you expeditiously in writing. It will becom kept open for 10 days. This meeting stands adjourned. [gavel benny. Banging] coverage watch live on cspan2, online at cspan. Org, or listen live on the cspan radio app. Announcer this week the house and Senate Return to legislative business before the august recess. On monday and tuesday the house takes up the fiscal year 2021 Defense Authorization act. It establishes policies for Defense Department programs. Votes are expected early monday. Wednesday, the house will consider a bill to remove the bust of chief Justice Robert p , the author of the dred scott ruling, from the old chamber and address confederate statues on display in the u. S. Capital. The senate also convenes on monday to resume debate on the russell vote. For the remainder of the week, the Senate Continues work on the 2021 Defense Authorization act. Cspan,ve coverage on live coverage on senate on cspan2, watch anytime on cspan. Org or listen on the go with the free cspan radio app. Recently campaigned about talking about trade and the economy. Ladies and gentlemen, the Vice President of the United States, mike pence. [cheering]