Transcripts For CSPAN Books 20240703

Today at a Campaign Stop in new hampshire. In partnership with the library of congress, cspan rings you books that shaped america. Our series brings you books that have had a profound impact on the country. The first autobiography of abolitionist and former slave Frederick Douglass. Published in 1845 the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass he tells his early life as a slave in maryland lynn tatian. Learning to read and working as a shipbuilder in baltimore and as cape from slavery to the north as a young adult. In of several memoirs he wrote about his life, this first narrative was an antislavery treatise, best and further the cause of abolition. For many readers outside of the south this may have been their introduction to the reality of slavery. Throughout his life he continued to work toward ending slavery as a writer, orator and statesman and the power of his presence was captured in a newly popular medium. Douglass was one of the most photographed americans of the 19th century. Welcome to books that shaped america. Our cspan series that looks at how books throughout our history have influenced who we are today. In partnership with the library of congress, this 10 week series has been exploring different eras, topics and viewpoints. Youre glad you are joining us through this walk through history. So far we have looked at the foundations of america through the eyes of Thomas Paynes common sense and the federalist papers, the expansion of america with the expedition of lewis and clark in the west and tonight the year is 1845 and the book is the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass. It is a book that had a major impact on the abolitionist cause. This evening, edna green medford historian, author and longtime professor at Howard University here in washington, d. C. Welcome back to cspan. Delighted to be here. The year is 1845. Six years before the start of the civil war. What was the country like . It was an interesting time to say the least. The country was becoming more divided even at that point even though we are quite a bit of distance away from the civil war. The country is divided and the reason is because slavery has either ended or is gradually ending. For the most part it has ended in 1840 five in the north but it has not in the south. It has gotten stronger in the south. The south is determined it is going to expand its holdings in slavery. It once the western territories and so abolitionism becomes even more militant. By 1825 18 between nine, you had david walker writing to the enslaved population saying rise up and slay your masters. In 1831 have net turner and his rebellion in southampton county, virginia. You have William Lloyd garrison, publishing the liberator at that time. And so things are heating up. So before this period, southerners agreed slavery was a necessary evil. They recognize it as people but it was a necessary evil. I the 1830s and by the time the book is published in 1845, they are calling slavery a positive good. The abolitionists are wishing that much harder against that kind of nonsense. Douglasss book exposes the hardships of slavery in a way no one had before. It is important to come from him because he is someone who has witnessed it firsthand. The narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass is published. What was its Immediate Impact at that time . Prof. Medford it was explosive. He was able to sell quite a few copies immediately by the time of the civil war in about 15 years. 30,000 copies had been sold. There were nine additions it had gone through. The north was all about it. The south was furious about it because they felt douglass had exaggerated what slavery was about. It showed white northerners what slavery really was. They could only imagine it because most of them had never seen slavery. They had never gone to the south. They had not witnessed the endless they were in place like southern ohio and they sell people trying to come across. But it showed once and for all the horrors of slavery, the separation of families, the race mixing, the rotella t of men and women and it was the kind of the brutality of men and women and it was a kind of thing northerners could not ignore. It was before Harriet Beecher stowes Uncle Toms Cabin. It is a way of introducing White Americans in the north to the horrors of slavery. It is as much about abolitionism , as much about supporting the abolitionist cause as it is about telling, about douglasss life. Was it available in the south . Prof. Medford prof. Medford if it was available and the south, no one would ever have admitted they had a copy. I that time, the south was not receptive to anyone talking negatively about slavery. By the 1830s, they had been able to pass a gag rule in congress preventing any more petitions from coming to congress because people were becoming very agitated about what was happening in the country. Slavery, they understood, was causing a problem. It would not have been something that would have been readily available in the south. I had no doubt people would have had copies but they wouldve done so clandestinely. Narrative of the fef Frederick Douglass was published on may 1 come 1845 by william lloygaison. We wilta about him. 5000 ciesold within four monthsitn a population o20 million. That was a pretty big printer n 30,000 copies sold by 1860. It was the first of his three autobiographies. Our partner in this endeavor, books that shaped america, is the library of congress. That is the organization that came up with the original 100 books that shaped america. We chose 10 from that. They have an original copy from 1845 of the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass. As it says there, written by himself. Library of congress describes it as one of the best written and most widely read narratives of a formerly enslaved person. A strong testament for the need to abolish slavery. How did he write it . Prof. Medford it is interesting. It seems what he is including, he had talked about in his lectures. I this time he had traveled all over the north having antislavery lectures and he talked about his life. Some of what is in the book is a repeat of what he had already talked about in those lectures. He is talking about his early life, what it meant to be a child enslaved on the Eastern Shore of maryland. He talked about what it was like to be in an urban environment versus a rural environment. He talked about the hypocrisy of christianity which is really fascinating in the book. One of the more interesting parts i think and the strongest arguments against slavery. He talked about separation. He talked about friendships and relationships that were forged during slavery. He talks about longing for freedom. He was the ideal person to write a book like this because he was so passionate about his desire to see everyone free. We have mentioned Talbot County, maryland, baltimore and their relations geographically to washington, c. Here is the map of that. His birth name was Frederick Bailey. Why didchange his name . Prof. Medford his grandms name was bailey. She was betsy bailey. He was born Frederick Augustus washington bailey. He changed his name because when he went north, he wanted to make sure he could not be traced to where he had taken refuge. Because slaveholders went after their enslaved laborers when they ran away. When he got to new york, he realized he had already changed his name i think he was traveling under the name of stanley because he had siemens papers with the name stanley on it. He then later changed his name to johnson. When he got to new bedford, there were too many johnsons in the community and so things were rather confused so he changed it to douglass and he kept that name for the rest of his life. What was his life like in the first years in Talbot County . Prof. Medford as a child in Talbot County, he talked about not having to work hard for the first seven years of his life because he was a child he talks about the hunger. Always being hungry. He talksut being cold during the winter. He talked about having to wear a onepiece outfit should it was just a long shirt. A course linen shirt that stopped at its knees. No trousers. He was so delighted when he found out he was going to baltimore because he would be able to wear pants. It is interesting that is what he is thinking about. Not whether or not he is going to escape the hard labor of being in a rural environment but it is like he is going as a grownup. He is now old enough to wear pants especially if he is going to an urban environment. He talks about not really connecting with his siblings because he did have others and sisters on the plantation where he finally was taken by his grandmother at the age of six or seven. But he had no real connection to them because he had not grown up with them. Slavery did not encourage any kind of strong feelings between parents and children or between mothers and sisters. And so he was quite a lonely fellow i think when he was in that rule environment that rural environment. He left and went to baltimore but when he came back as a teenager, he was able to make friendships. These were friendships that were extremely important to him. The men he worked with on the farm and the ones he worked with on the freeland farm as well, he really cared about what was to happen to those men. Here is a quote from the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass talking about familial relatio. I never saw my mother, to know her as such more than four or five timesn my life and each of those times was a short duration and at night she would lie down with me and get me to sleep but long before i woke, she was gone. Very little communication ever took place between us. Prof. Medford not at all uncommon. Especially in an environment that he was in. He was on a plantation where actually his owner was the superintendent of and the click of this larger plantation the clerk of this larger plantation. Colonel lloyd was the owner of the plantation and he had 10 separate farms and he had hundreds of enslaved people. His manager had his own 30 enslaved people. So douglass had to deal with that kind of environment. Large plantation but he is a part of a Smaller Group as well. He was not i did not get the sense he s abused, at least nove much, when he was still there, but even then he is recognizing he does not have the same kind of opportunities as the way children do. He is the way children do. He is witnessing horrific brutality. One of the things that stuck with him was the beating of his aunt. She is stripped to the waist and is beaten because she disobeys her owners orders that she is not to see this black man she is interested in so he beats her severely. Douglass as a child does not quite understand that at that time. He is just afraid he is going to be next. So it is not a nice environment to be in things get better when he goes to baltimore. Quote i have often been a and at the dawn of daythe most heartrending shrieks of an aunt of mine who he used to tie up and whip up on her naked back until she was literally covered with blood. Words, no tears,ayers from his victim seemed to move his iron heart from its bloody purpose. The louder screamed, harder he whipped. When this book came out and those words were published, were people shocked by the brutality . Prof. Medford i think people understood those kind of things could have been in slavery the way he described it was so real that they could not ignore the brutality. Slaveholders had always argued everyone was benevolent, that the enslaved population got enough to eat, they were not abused, they were not worked too hard. None of that is true. There was a great deal of brutality and douglass wanted to make his audience understand that. I think some of the greatest kinds of the thing i remember the most about the book is those instances where he is talking about the brutality against black women. It is more than just beating them or raping them. It is humiliating them. Stripping them to the waist. Having them exposed to the world. It is a kind of dehumanization that even black men did not face and they faced enough. It was horrific for them as well that there was Something Different about the way they treated black women. I think douglass hit upon that. He understood how vile that was also how that would go over with the public. He understood there are certain things the public might be able to deal with if it is a man involved but if you are talking about a woman who has done nothing actually and to have her abused that way i think many people especially women understood what that must be like. You also mentioned the baltimore connection that Frederick Douglass was moved to baltimore one time. We traveled to baltimore to hear about that part of his childhood. Here is a urban Ranger Bradley austin. Welcome. My name is bradley austin. I am an urban ranger with the Baltimore National heritage area. We are here in fells point in baltimore, maryland. It was here in the spring of 1826 that a young enslaved africanamerican boy named Frederick Bailey, later to be called Frederick Douglass, landed to start his adventure in a new and a new chapter in his life he chronicles in his first autobiography. He landed on a ship similar to this. Other passengers on the ship with Young Frederick bailey was a herd of sheep sent to baltimore to the baltimore market. He had on his first pair of pants in his life at eight years old. Made specifically for the trip. This is the first town he saw, the first city he saw. After dropping off the sheep to the market, he was taken by a deckhand to meet the new family. The family he would live with on and off until he was in his 20s. Frederick douglass lived in a number of homes in fells point. His second home was in an area called the hook in fells point that juts out into the baltimore harbor. To put this into perspective, Frederick Douglass is now taking care of tommy. He is observing sophia the mother is teaching young tommy how to read. He asks sophia, the mistress, can she teach him and she said of course. She had no experience of being a slave owner or a slave master or what that entailed. She happily taught him along with tommy his abcs, small words and he made remarkable progress. After a couple weeks she shared with her husband what she was doing. He exploded. He said if you teach a n word how to read, you will ruin him forever as a slave. Frederick douglass later wrote in his autobiography this was the first antislavery lecture he experienced. And it gave him the motivation to learn and realized information is knowledge. In order to facilitate his learning, frederick then used a resource he had at hand. One of those was because of his place in the house and his loft near the kitchen, he had access to food, biscuits and warm bread. In that situation he was better off than some of the white immigrant boys that were his neighbors. He was able to barter bread for lessons from his white playmates. And a quote from Frederick Douglasss book. Set out with high hope and fixed purpose that whatever cost of trouble would learn how to read. So was mrs. Alt a hero . Prof. Medford she certainly was to him. He admired her for the rest of his life. He talked about her fondly. She was trying to do the right thing. But he used her in another way. He used her as an example because he said after her husband told her she was wrong in teaching him, her whole demeanor changed toward him. And so he used that as an example of what slavery does to white people as well. So you can start out being someone who can be kind and gentle to a young child but eventually slavery corrupts you. Power corrupts you and you become someone who is not at all kind. And so i think he does eventually forgive her for that. He understands why it happens but he was always very fond of her. At what point did he equate learning to read with freedom . Prof. Medford i think when he saw the little white boys learning he felt he should be able to do it as well. When he bought the colombian orator, i think that is when he really started seeing the possibility for himself. Because he is reading the speeches from great men but he is also reading this dialogue between master and slave. He is picking up some things. That book becomes his Constant Companion for a number of years. And he learned so much from it. Not just how to use words, how to pull them altogether, what how to speak them. He becomes a great orator at least in part because he has been exposed to that book. You are watching cspans books that shaped america, our 10 week series looking at some of the important books in our history. These books are taken from a list created by the library of congress about 10 years ago. We have chosen tend to feature in this series. They are not necessarily the best sellers or the best written or anything like that but they are all books that had an impact at the time and on who we are today. As with most cspan life programs, this is an Interactive One and we want to hear from you. Tonight we are talking about the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass. Our guest is edna Greene Medford, longtime cspan friend, longtime professor at Howard University as well. This is how you can participate. 202 is the area code. If you cannot get through on the phone lines but would still like to ask a question or make a comment, 202 748 80003 is our text number. Please include your first name and your city if you would. Lets give you a snapshot of what the united stes was like in 1845. James k polk was president. The population had grown to about 20 million people. On top of that, the slave population was about twond a half million. Eventually to rise close to 4 million before its aboshment. Several Million Immigrants were starting to come into the u. S. At that point. The slave population, was it counted in the census . Prof. Medford it was but it is separate in terms of if you look at there is a household census. There is an agricultural senses but there is a slave census as well. Those enslaved people are not listed as individuals with names. When you look at that census, they are listed under their owners and they are listed by age and gender. But not by name. Every now and then a name will be slipped in because there is someone who is extraordinary. I found a person in york county, virginia who supposedly was 125 years old. We know that is not the case but they claimed he was 125. His name was listed. Otherwise, no name. You mentioned the name a little earlier and we are going to read a quote from the mr. Covey succeeded breaking me. I was broken in body, soul and spirit. My natural elasticity was crushed. The dispition to read departed. Cheerful spark that lingered about my eye died. E rk night of slavery closed in upon me andehold a man transformed into a brooch. He goes on to write that this l wi mr. Covey was the turning point in my career as a slav it rekindled the few expiring embers of freedom and revived thin me a sense of my own manhood. It recalled the departed selfconfidence and inspired me again with a determination to be free. Who is edward covey . Prof. Medford edward covey was a man who we are not certain. Douglass talks about him as a slave breaker. He may have been that but he was also someone who was hiring douglass from his owner. And the owner had decided douglass was an cordial bull. He could not be handled was in cordial. That he could not be handled easily. So they sent him off to work with edward covey. This was a really brutal man who had the reputation of breaking the will of enslaved people. So douglass was beaten at least weekly he says. And he tolerated the beatings because what else was he going to do but it got to the point where douglass was no longer willing to tolerate it so he tuck his best shot. He and kobe fought for he says two and a half hours. I dont know if i believe that but apparently there was a struggle. And covey never beat him after that. Why he did not we speculate that he probably not want to admit he had been bested by an enslaved man. If he was truly a slave breaker, then who would want to send their troubled slave laborers to him if he could not handle this young man . I guess douglass would have been about 17 or 18 at that time. Shortly before his escape. Prof. Medford it is during this period, shortly after the period when he is on the farm he does try to escape. But he is betrayed. And he knows who it is he does not say that in the narrative. And so yes, he does try again but this first time he fails. Instead of being sold to alabama which is what they were planning to do, he ends up eating sent back to baltimore. How lucky can you get . Denise is in new york city. Thanks for calling in. Please go ahead. Good evening to you both. My question is was mr. Douglass ever able to make contact with any of his siblings or family members later in life after he went back to his hometown . Prof. Medford yes, he did. Even before he went back to Talbot County. How do i put this delicately . His relatives often called on him for financial support. He was not only supporting some of his children who were not doing very well but he was supporting his extended family as well. So he did reconnect with them. Some of them should gregory in louisville, kentucky. Good evening. Very nice topic. I was thinking about mr. Douglass. I had read something about when they were celebrating the independence of this country and how he was letting him know how hypocritical they were about the fourth of july and how him and lincoln were warm friends from what i gathered. I am very i have pictures of Frederick Douglass, him and his grandson playing an instrument. He was basically a dr. King during those times in a way and i know he always yearned to know his birthday and who his dad was. All of the struggles that he and that generation and all the way up until now even though with the country being divided right now, the things going on, i thought about christmas addicts. You dont hear anything about him about crispus attucks. You dont hear anything about him. We have a lot to work with. Next for calling in. Lets hear from our guest. Prof. Medford douglass was definitely the best known, probably the best known africanamerican of the 19th century. He was someone who was fighting for the right of black men and women but also for women. I think we sometimeet he is not just agitating and protesting for black freedom and black equality but he is also agitating and protesting for the quality the equality of women. The right of women to vote. I guess you could consider him the Martin Luther king jr. Of the 19th century. He was certainly a little bit more in some ways more aggressive. He was not willing to take violence off the table. Remember he is involved in john browns what john brown is doing. He does not join the raid but john brown is in residence in his home for about a month when he is plotting this raid on harpers ferry. And he probably supports brown financially in that venture as well. And so he is willing to use any means necessary to make sure black people are free and equal. And that includes violence if necessary. Of course dr. King goes a different route. But douglass felt that might be necessary for that period and certainly when the war came, douglass was in favor of it because he understood there was a possibility now black people would be freed as a consequence of the war. Tammy. Greensboro, north carolina. Good evening to you. My question for professor medford, the fourth of july speech. The idea that they invited him to speak about the fourth of july. Taking into context what they were thinking when they asked him to speak. Thank you so much. Prof. Medford that is pretty much what he asked them at the beginning of the speech. Why are you inviting me here to talk about your independence because my people are not free. It is probably my favorite speech from douglass. He was a wonderful oratory. Wonderful oratory. He starts off with what the day is meant to be. In the middle of it he launches into this indictment of america. He talks about what the fourth means to africanamericans. It certainly did not mean what it meant to White Americans. And of course they certainly knew what douglass was going to do. They were familiar with him. This was 1852. They understood he was going to go in that direction but he did it in a way they could not ignore what he was saying i think. Narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass was published in 1845. The preface was written by William Lloyd garrison. It was once deeply impressed upon my mind if mr. Douglass could be persuaded to consecrate his time and talents to e promotion of the antislavery enterpsea powerful impetus be given to iana stunning blow at the same time inflicte on northern prejudice against a colored complexion. A couple of questions. Who was William Lloyd garrison, where did they meet and this concept of northern prejudice . Prof. Medford garrison was the editor and publisher of the liberator, which is in antislavery newspaper. He was also associated with the president actually. Cannot remember for the life of me which Antislavery Society it was for the moment. It was in boston. He meets douglass fairly soon after douglass arrives in the north and he hears him speak. He invites him to this convention. Douglass is eventually hired. Garrison becomes a mentor to douglass until they have a falling out. I think it has to do not just with the fact douglass is by any means necessary kind of guy in terms of the ending of slavery and equality for black people but douglass is willing to work in the system. He is willing to look at Political Institutions to see if they might be helpful in terms of ending slave. Garrison is not. Garrison believes the constitution is a proslavery document. Douglass is not thinking in that direction at that time. I think also the two clash because garrison remembers douglass as someone he had met fairly fresh out of slavery. It is like the father never believing the sun is ready to go out on his own. So he is offended of the idea that douglass thinks he is ready to go it alone. It is unfortunate it happened. The two do mend fences eventually but in the early period after the book is published, a little later, the two do clash. The lecture circuit. Sell out successful, profitable . Prof. Medford the lecture circuit is very profitable for douglass. He becomes a darling of the lecture circuit. He is articulate. I hate to use that word but it is the only word i can think of to describe him. He is handsome. The women love him. The men love him. He can he is manic too. He does these interesting things when he is speaking. He wins the crowd over. He is very successful at that. Not just in the United States but in europe as well. The book published may 1 come 1845. It is a revi from the new york tribune june 10, 1845. Nsered merely as a narrative we have never read one more simple, true, coherent and warm with genuine feeling. It is in excellent piece of writing and on that score to be prized as a specimen of the powers of the black race which prejudice persists and disputing. Another quote and this is by ac thompson, a neighbor of thomas all hold. About eight years ago, i knew this recreant slave or the name of Frederick Daly instead of douglass, and unlimited and rather ordinary negro. For nonbut an educated man and one who had some knowledge of the rules of grammar could write so correctly. Prof. Medford yeah. It is interesting. That is why the book is titled the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass, an american slave, written by himself because he knew that people would not believe he was capable of doing that. A lot of those narratives start that way. They are titled that way. An american slave written by himself or herself because the public believed black people were not intelligent enough to put those words together and have them have meaning to anyone. And so douglass knew that a real challenge would be to convince people he had actually written the book himself without any assistance from anyone. I cannot even imagine how they could go to a lecture hall and hear him and not believe he had not written the book because he had done this time and time again. He was an exceptional person as were many africanamericans during that period. They just did not have the opportunity to show it. Heres a text from paul in greenfield, indiana. Was mr. Douglasss book ever band anywhere . Prof. Medford i am sure it was banned in the south. It deafly would not have been acceptable there. In the north it was accepted very well. In the British Isles it was accepted as well because he traveled there after the book was published and even got friends to purchase his freedom. Yeah. I am sure it was banned in the south did i know it was banned in the south. Matthew is in portland, oregon. Hi, matthew. Thank you so much for your time. I dont know a whole lot about the topic but i did want to ask if she has some idea you did talk a little bit earlier about Martin Luther king. What Frederick Douglass would have thought of the approach to civil rights Martin Luther king took. You said about violence earlier. Thank you so much. An earlier caller compared Frederick Douglass to Martin Luther king. Prof. Medford the thing to remember about Frederick Douglass is his whole thing was about agitation and protest. He would have been pleased with what Martin Luther king jr. Was doing because he was trying to move forward. It was agitation and protest. King had a different perspective in terms of how you agitate and how you protest but douglass would not have criticized him for that. He would have been pleased the struggle still continues. He says one of his most famous quotes is where there is no struggle there is no progress. And certainly king understood that as well. Lets return to bradley austin, our urban ranger in baltimore, to learn a little bit more about Frederick Douglasss life and his eventual escape. We are here in fells point on the corner of lancaster and wolf street. In 1836 one Frederick Bailey returned to baltimore after his sojourn on the Eastern Shore, this was the end of fells point. Shipyards were here. He worked in one of those shipyards, the William Gardner shipyard. Things changed since frederick went to the Eastern Shore. He came back with more competition for the job. You had more immigration from europe, especially ireland. It was here that Frederick Douglass was attacked by several youth. Coworkers, to try to push him and other africanamerican workers off of the shipyard. He was badly beaten. Took him around the corner to the magistrate to fill out a complaint should magistrate said because of the laws at that time , an africanamerican cannot testify in court against a white person. Unless a white person came forward to testify about the attack there was nothing he could do. He pulled him out of the shipyard and let him work on the price shipyard where he was a foreman should Frederick Douglass learned a skill and went quickly from apprentice to journeyman, earned a lot of money for that time. Nine dollars a week. He gave that over. He negotiated that he wanted to go out on his own. And give a certain amount of money every week. They agreed on three dollars a week whether frederick barely worked or not Frederick Bailey worked or not. He decided to go to a religious revival in baltimore county. He did not give all the money on friday that was agreed. He did not come back until late sunday, early monday morning. An argument ensued. Auld made a prediction he needs to find work and if he cannot find work to give him his money he would find work for him. Frederick douglass thought this was a threat to sell himself into slavery which was something most border state enslaved people dreaded. It was at that point he decided he needed to escape. It took three weeks of planning. With his fiancee, he plotted his escape from slavery. We are here on boston street in baltimores canton area just east of fells point. It was here on september 3, 1838 Frederick Douglass dressed in a sailors outfit and with freedom papers boarded the philadelphia, wilmington and Baltimore Railroad train. Waited until the train started moving before he jumped on to ensure he would be safe. The reason he came this far was because the terminus for the railroad was on president street downtown. The first leg of the Train Movement was through fells point, his neighborhood. It was drawn by horses. You can imagine Frederick Bailey trying to escape dressed as a sailor on a train pulled by horses he would have been recognized so he came here to canton just east of fells point and waited until the train started moving before he boarded the train and took that train to become Frederick Douglass, one of the greatest orators and speakers of the 19th century. Frederick douglass recounts that journey in his book narrative of a life of Frederick Douglass. Was he in legal jeopardy after that . Prof. Medford while he is escaping for once he gets there . Or once he gets there . He could have been stopped at any time. It takes a while to get from maryland to new york. He is going and he is taking the train. He takes a fairy. Then he takes another train. All with forged papers. Prof. Medford exactly. And someone does recognize him when he is on the train. He is rather loud about it. He says what are you doing here and douglass kind of ignore soon. There are two other men he encounters as well. One a german he believes let him go who did not want to get involved and the other guy he knew did not notice him. At any time during the journey he could have been stopped. Someone should have asked to see his freedom papers, his sailors papers at some point. I dont know that they did that to it may be because he is doing these things like getting on the train at the last minute and so forth. But he was very much in jeopardy. This is before the fugitive slave act of 1850 but there is a fugitive slave law of 1793 that allows slaveholders to retrieve their property from free territory. So at any time before he got to free territory could have been stopped. But even when he gets to new york, he is not safe because there are slave catchers who are coming to new york. When he gets there, he is told it is not safe for you to stay here. We need to go to new bedford since you have this background in shipbuilding and caulking. Maybe you need to keep on and go to new bedford. After my arrival at new york Frederick Douglass rights, i said i felt like one who escaped a den of hungry lions. The state of mind soon subsided and i was again seized with a feeling of great insecurity and loneliness. I was yet liable to be taken back and sjected to all the tortures of slavery. And then he moved on to new bedford, massachusetts. Erything looked clean, new and beautiful. Theeople looked more able, stronger, healthier and happier than those of maryland. I was for once made glad by a view of extreme wealth without being saddened by seeingme poverty. But the most astonishing as well as the most interesting thing to me was the condition of the colored people. Prof. Medford he was surprised. He expected in the north because there was no slavery that there would be a tremendous amount of poverty and there was. I think he did not see everything he could have seen. There was poverty in the north. But he had not expected the cleanliness, the prosperity. He had not expected to see black People Living in pretty decent housing. He was saying some of their housing was superior to that of the slaveholders in maryland. He is not talking about huge mansions but he is talking about decent homes that people are living in because they can secure jobs. That is not the case everywhere. It is very difficult for free black people to find employment in certain areas of the north. They are restricted in terms of the occupations for instance. Douglass finds that people working on the ships dont want to work alongside him. That kind of thing is occurring but douglass is pleasantly surprised at what he finds in the north. Edit is in maryland in the d. C. Suburbs. Thank you for taking my call. Professor medford, also thanks cspan for having this wonderful program. I read this book about 25 years ago. I still remember a great amount of what happened and what occurred in the book. One of the things i recall was the fact that Young Frederick who i guess was 13 years of age at the time was sent to the covey plantation to be broken. Basically he was told to ride an ox cart, to steer it into a field or whatever. It tipped over and that infuriated covey and he proceeded to send him to the barn and he beat the crap out of him. He kept hitting him. He made a mistake, covey did, of hitting him one more time. That is when Young Frederick sprung up and he grabbed covey by the neck and he was choking him and for the first time he looked at him in his eyes and he saw fear. Im saying this 25 years later after reading the book because and might be embellishing and correct me if i am wrong. Covey yelled to his assistant to come get this young kid off him and all that. At the same time frederick was covey said that was enough. He left the barn and frederick thought he was going to be killed the next day. One of the things i wanted to find out from you is how prosperous was this a field to be a breaker of slaves. Covey could not have been the only person. Was this an actual occupation that many of the people had throughout the south and the slave world where they were professional breakers and they made their living that way . We are going to leave it there. Prof. Medford i believe douglass was older than 13. This is when he was about 16 or 17 actually that he is fighting covey. It is my understanding there certainly were slave breakers but what coveys position is is he is getting free labor. He is getting sleigh whole slaveholders sending their more difficult slave laborers to him and he is getting to hire them for free. He is not having to pay to have their labor. So he is breaking them but he is also getting labor from them. So it is lucrative for him because he is not having to rent this person. Going back to narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass, will in the north, as we have said i think at the beginning of this program, their first exposure to the life of a slave . Prof. Medford it is for many of them. The average White American from the north would have had very little idea of what was happening in slavery. They benefited from the labor of enslaved people. The textile mills in new england could not have functioned without the labor of enslaved people but they have no idea of the brutality. If they did have an idea of the brutality they would have never seen it in the way it was presented douglass. If you cannot get through on the phones, 202 7488003 is our text number. Shelley is calling in from los angeles. Good evening. Hello, dr. Medford. Thank you for the discussion. I would like your thoughts on from comments Toni Morrison makes in her documentary regarding Frederick Douglass and his autobiography. As he saks, she indicates around the issue of rape of black women during slavery is an acceptable practice, she says he refers to what he says in the autobiography she refers to what he says in the autobiography. I may not have all the words but it is Something Like such terrible things not to mention that seem to in previous language in the book indicates that there is some sort of strong change about what occurred to black wen. She equates it somewhat with Richard Wrights feeling of referring to statements in the. Book where he sees things through quote unquote the white gaze. Somewhat placing upon ourselves a feeling of shame that we have had ingrained in us during this time. I would like your thoughts on that. Thank you for calling in. Prof. Medford i did not get the sense douglass is talking about shame as much as he is talking about how common it is. And how accepted it is by people outside of the Africanamerican Community. I reread that book. I have read it several times and i did not pick up on that. There would have been no reason for a black woman to be ashamed since black women had no power to prevent it. So the shame should have been on the man who is doing it. And i would think douglass would have felt that way as well. You have now convinced me i need to reread the book and take a closer look at that and i will. Maria is in atlanta. Please go ahead. Good evening. I saw a documentary on Frederick Douglass on hbo. They were saying he was married for many years and he kept it private. A lot of people did not know he was married. I was wondering is this true and why . Prof. Medford douglass was married twice. He was married to his first wife i think for 44 years. When she passed away two years after she died, he married his white secretary who was 20 years his jr. Anit caused an uproar. Not just in the White Community but in the Africanamerican Community as well. He did not keep an eye maury, douglas, secret pit she was not comfortable apparently being in the kinds of circles he traveled in. He would invite people to their home. She would fix meals for them and then she would retire to her bedroom pit she did not participate in those kinds of things. But she made it possible for him to participate. If not for her he would not have been out on the lecture circuit. He would not have had the opportunity to go to europe because when he was out doing his antislavery thing, she was helping keep the family together. A family of five children. So no one everyone knew she existed but she was not a part of that segment of his life. Is she the one who escaped from baltimore with him so she was also an escaped slave . Prof. Medford she was not. She was a free black woman. She did not come to new york until after he had arrived. He sent for her. That is another instance of where she helps him. Supposedly she sold her featherbed to help get the money for him to travel to new york. This was an extraordinary woman who i think actually worked in a shoemaker shop or something as well while he was away. She would do his laundry and send them to him wherever he was. She was a heck of a woman and she does not get the kind of credit we should be giving her. Throughout this series, books that shaped america, we have been Touching Base with teachers across the country to see how they teach the books we are talking about each week. Here are three and how they teach a narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass. Slavery lies at the foundation of this nations history. You cannot have a conversation about slavery, about American History without talking about douglas because he was involved in so many areas. From being born into slavery, eventually becoming an abolitionist, then leading the charge toward the emancipation proclamation. The narrative is an essential text especially in an American History classroom. I would also like to emphasize the narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass is a very personal text to me. When i was a freshman in college, i almost flunked out. Second semester, i started taking black history courses, and my life completely turned around. I was so inspired by the stories and teachings that might grades completely did a 180. I was given by a mission and purpose. I revisited the connection between what i love about the book, and why it is so important for our kids to read in this day and age. Forced and foremost, it gives an appreciation for what people have to do, particularly like American People at one point in history just to learn and gain knowledge. We have a technology privilege. We dont realize without the right perspective that we can just simply google anything. We can learn anything, youtube anything, we can listen to anything at any moment, at any given time. And we have technology that will curate what they think we like. I come from an era where we were trapped between two different worlds. That didnt always exist. Seeing not only what millennials or generation x or what our baby boomers had to go through, but seeing what people like Frederick Douglass had to go through ads a different perspective. This book should be read aloud. Chapter 10 is the best to be read aloud for all of the 23 years i have taught it, i have read that chapter allowed. I focus on the greatest of antislavery literature, the metaphor comparing his enslavement to an inanimate object in chesapeake bay. In it, he talks about a ship. Those beautiful vessels roped in the purest white, so delightful to the eyes of freemen, were to me so many terrifying ghosts to terrify me about my wretched condition. Students relate get this. And then he pleads with god, oh god, save me, deliver me, l me be very. There is just nothing more betiful. We want to thank bobby hle of north carolina, ernest of illinois, for sending us their videos. There is a whole section on our webse ooks that shaped america teacher resources. You can find lesson plans there, you can also communicate with our education staff at cspan via that. Go to cspan. Org books that shaped america. Edna Greene Medford did you ever teach this book particularly, or any of his other two autobiographies . Prof. Medford i taught that one in particular for my survey classes in africanAmerican History. That was wired reading. When you write out your lesson plan, what did you want students to take away . Prof. Medford to understand the themes he is talking about. He is talking about separation, race mixing, about violence and brutality. He is talking about the longing for freedom. He is talking about education. I wanted them to take that and understand what all of those things meant to the enslaved person during that period. Not just on the Eastern Shore of maryland, but throughout the south. I think they got a better understanding of what slavery was by reading that book then they could ever get from any lecture that i did, or any textbook. It had to come directly from someone who had experienced it. Another educator who has written a biography of Frederick Douglass is david blight of yale university. Im sure a good friend of yours. If you would like to is in to our companion podcast, you can do so. You will see the url code on your screen. Go ahead and aim your phone at that. And can hear the companion podcast. But companion podcast is more about the life of Frederick Douglass, rather than about the book which were discussing tonight. James in washington, d. C. , youre on cspan, please go ahead. Thank you so much, cspan, for the programs, and for taking my call. This is a quick question. Was there any Research Done to figure out Frederick Douglass biological father . Thank you, sir. Prof. Medford i dont think anyone has ever definitively determined who that was. I would think most historians who have studied douglass believe it was the person who was his and slaver, Aaron Anthony, who was the clerk and superintendent at the colonel lloyd plantation. Wenow that he most likely was a white man. We also know that Aaron Anthony would have had access to any of his women laborers. And we just assume that it was him. We cant prove it. Thats it. Joining our conversation is a harvard professor of english, of african and africanamerican studies. He is the coauthor of this book, picturing Frederick Douglass. It was published in 2015. And its about Frederick Douglass and photography. Professor stoffer, when did Frederick Douglass first sit for a portrait . He first set for a portrait around 1841. He shortly escaped from slavery in 1838. It was the same year that he became involved with the american Antislavery Society as a public lecturer, abolition icing audiences throughout the north. Did he realize the power of this new medium . He became the most photographed american in the 19th century. There are more photographs of douglass than any other figure. More than of lincoln, then a grant, more than any we know of. Douglass significantly wrote on the power and significance of photography. He recognized photography as essentially a truth telling medium. And he recognized that true art could be a powerful engine along with words, and music, and writing to destroy slavery and racism and achieve equal rights. What can you tell us about his poses where he is sitting sideways not looking at the camera, not smiling . His signature pose the total number of separate photographs is still increasing but there are over 100 separate photographs. From his first photograph until the civil war, his signature pose was to stare directly into the camera lens. He was always dressed up, very well dressed. Confronting the viewer of the photograph. Essentially demanding and establishing himself as an equal american. He was always dressed up. Even people who didnt know him considered him very goodlooking. He was one of the most famous orders as early as the 1840s. He often sold big euro types and pictures while he was on the speaking circuit. Most of the photographs were taken while he was on the speaking circuit. Until after the civil war, he traveled throughout the north, the free states. And virtually everywhere he went, he sat for a photograph. He had a photograph taken by jp paul and lydia caldwell, what was unique about these photos . James p paul was an africanamerican photographer. He had a cincinnati studio. It was a lavish studio. And he was considered by white art critics as one of, if not the greatest photographer in the United States at the time. Within which photography was a huge passion for americans. It was considered a widely popular art. Americans had a Level Photography that surpassed that of every other nation. And his studio in ssent natty in cincinnati was celebrated by gleasons pictorial, one of the leading art magazines. In the view of james ball and the gallery, they said the photograph had a sharpness of expression that was unsurpassed by any establishment in the union. Thats high praise. Here on the set with us is professor edna Greene Medford. Obviously, you know each other. She had a question for you as well. Prof. Medford my favorite is one that i think he wouldve had done in 1862. The one with chiseled features, hair is graying a bit. But i notice by 67 or 68, there are other images where he looks much older, but the implication is that it is 67 or 68, are some of these photographs not labeled properly in terms of date . We devoted a huge amount of research to identify when they were taken. And fortunately, beginning around 1860, most of the images had a date that we were able to identify. Some of the early photographs, we have no date. If we can rely on a photographer, if we knew who it was. But in some cases, there is no record of the date or who the photographer was. And we essentially spent time comparing those images to establish his age visavis the photographs next to it. By 1860 and later, we had far more detail as of what photography studio it was at and when it was. And we separate the book by featuring 60 of what we consider to be the greatest images. And images that had a comparatively fair amount of documentation. But back in which we include all of the images we required to show that he is americas dashboard 19th centurys most photographed american. There is a lot of images. There is not that much to go on. And so, in the catalog, we do our best to create a chronology. But we feel confident that those 60 represented, and i think extraordinary images from the first through the 60th [indiscernible]. We want to show that to our viewers now. Taken in 1895. We do know the de. What was the importance . Postmortem for the gras had a fairly long tradition from the United States. The daguerrotype was the first form of photography. Americans have a love that surpassed that of other nations. It was a unique oneofakind object. The detail in figure out type dagguerotype surpassed every sex subsequent type of photography. So, postmortem dagguerotypes were common in the antebellum period. If a family lost a family member, they would make a dagguerotype to preserve the body and soul. That vision of the body dying, but the soul staying present remained. There were a large number of deathbed photographs. Lincoln had a deathbed photograph taken. That was very common in the postbellum. Period and though it was not dagguerotype. Thanks for spending a few minutes with us this evening. A little bit about Frederick Douglasss legacy. Later on in life he ran for Vice President with victoria woodhall. U. S. Msh for the district of columbus aoied by rutherford bay. He served under five president s, including as general counsel to haiti, and designated as scotlands antislavery agent. Nearly 40 scare named for douglass. D. C. Voters, there is the dark mustnwealth douglass commonwealth d. C. If becoming a state would called douglass commonwealth. Statues throughout the s. Including more than a dozen in rochester, new york where douglass lived for 25 years, all of that stemmed from 1845, narrative of the life of Frederick Douglass. We will take a call from oregon. This is lewis in grants pass, oregon on. Im guessing this is lewis, the teacher we just saw in the video, am i right . Yes, you are. Thank you, cspan and professor medford, icu often. See you often. Can you mentioned his relationship with womens su ffragists . Some have said that douglass was the first male feminist. He was there at senegal falls when women were agitating to use his word for the right to vote. He believed that women were more than capable of being engaged in the political process. And he supported them 100 . He clashed with women only over the 15th amendment because douglass was pushing for the right of black men to vote. And white women wanted the right to vote as well. Some of them felt that if only one group had the opportunity to vote, it should be white women. And douglass felt no, black men needed the right to vote. White women at least could be resented by their husbands, by their brothers, their fathers. Black women had no one speak for them. But of course, we know that before he died, he made his peace with the women and the womens movement. In fact, he had come from an equal rights suffrage meeting that day that he passed away. He had just come from that. So absolutely, he was in favor of the rights of all people. And certainly, worked very hard to have it for women as well. Here in washington, d. C. Is the douglass home, which is a national park. How long did he live in washington, d. C. . He arrived in washington in 74 may be. His house burned down in rochester we think as a consequence of arson in 1872. He moved to washington then. He certainly was here in time to be the head of the freemens bank before it went under. He put his own money into that bank trying to save it. It was impossible to do anything to save it. Hes here early in the 70s. He purchases peter hill, which is a big deal, because it is this mansion on the hill in anacostia owned by a black family. And its a big deal for the city. We mentioned our website, cspan. Org bookshasaved america. On that website, you can sd what you consider to be a book that shaped america. We will see it up there, you are input. Click on that, two easy steps. Maybe we will use your video on the air. Here are some of the books though that are also on the library of Congress List of 100 books that shaped amera from the douglass era. In 1820, Washington Irving wrote the legend of sleepy hollow, one of the first of fiction by an american author to become popular outside the u. S. The book of mormon came along in 1830. In 1836, the newly revised eclectic primer. And peter parleys universal history was published in 1837, introducing Young Readers to faraway people and places. Other books on the library of Congress List of books that shaped america. From 1840 five, tales by edgar allan polk, a forefather of the horror genre. The daniel hawthornes scarlet letter. Moby dick came out in 1851. In making you, it was in 1852, it was Uncle Toms Cabin by gary peters though. Tells her on the books that shaped america website that you can access on our website. This is the librarys 100 books that shaped america divided by eras. From dennison, texas, please go ahead. Excellent topic. Thank you. A couple quick things before i get cut off. The interesting life of udela, i think that is about right, it was written in 1791. Probably the first slave autobiography. Once i got started reading these autobiographies, i started looking for them, and they seem to be a truly great source of firstperson experience instead of reading what somebody who wrote about somebody wrote about tell the story. The book thats a topic tonight, i read that, and realized that im getting close to the end, and he didnt die in 1845. Whats going on . So, i immediately found the third volume. The last of his autobiographies written before his death in 1883. Spoiler alert. One thing i didnt hear you mention was what was part of the reason that led to his writing a book in 1845 . Its my recollection, he took that tour. One of the problems is he had a falling out with a garrison abolitionist group. There seem to be something he wrote about in the book being discussed, where they were reluctant for him to speak freely. They had a script they wanted him to follow. They were worried that if he spoke, if he was addressing things extemporaneously, but they would thank you is not really a slave. I believe we got the point. We kind of referenced this a little bit earlier. Go ahead, professor medford. The falling out occurred after the book was published later. It is because he is becoming more political. He is willing to work within the system to a point. And the garrisonians are not interested in that. Its not that they are concerned that people wont believe that he had the experiences with slavery that he did. It is more about the approach to abolitionism. And as i mentioned earlier, on our website, you can send in a book that you think helped to shape america. Its right at the top, viewer input. Here are some of the contributions that we have received. My name is billy from california. One of the books that shaped america was the bible. It has a lot of common sense. And it helps people get by in life. In addition, it was one of the books that was in our Founding Fathers rooms. Everybody should read it twice to understand it. It will help us deal with things further on down the line. A book that helped shape america is one fish, two fish, redfish, bluefish by dr. Seuss. I read that book really early in childhood. I was reading as early as like two years old. A lot of his stuff helped me figure out how to read at a really early age. Also, for sure cool. One of the greatest boxes april 1865 by jay winick, who wrote about the country coming together after the civil war, which is an important part of our history. We are from southern california. We think the book that shaped america is pride and prejudice by the one and only jane austen. She said the standard for all american women today that we do not need to be looking for money in a man. We need to look for love. We need to stand up for ourselves. In that time period, it wasnt normal. Hello, everyone. I came from canary islands, spain. The book that i think shaped American History is diplomacy by henry kissinger. This is one of the best books. Cspan. Org booksthatshap edamerica is the website. Go there. Click on the viewer input button. Send in your video of a book that shaped america, and maybe we will use it on the air. Want to read this text from inez, in independent, maryland. Was douglass 27 when he wrote the narrative . Did he have a formal education . His use of words and writing style or so impressive. Prof. Medford he was about 27 when he wrote the book. He didnt have any formal education. He was taught his abcs by sophia hall. And he learned from the little white boys that he befriended on the street. But he never went to school. Interestingly enough, however, he was a trusty at Howard University for 25 years, i believe, and was actually offered the presidency of Howard University at one time as well. Its just, he had this ability torite, he read everything, he understood how to put words together. And we can all do that. It doesnt have to be in the finest school, you simply take the time to learn how to do it. Of course, he was talented as well, that didnt hurt any. But he just really worked at it. Lorraine in harlem, we have 30 seconds. Id like to ask, what does any of Frederick Douglass Family Express about changing the telling of history, including slavery in the United States. Prof. Medford the Douglass Family does have a foundation. And they have been trying to get the word out, not just about douglass, but in terms of what we all should be doing today. Douglasss favorite words were agitate and protest. We need to remember that today. Not necessarily burning anything down, but letting your voices being heard in whatever way that you think appro. My position would be by voting. Douglass was certainly agree with that as well. If you go to our website, you will see a 2013 ceremony on of the u. S. Capitol, were a statue of Frederick Douglass was dedicated by his great great granddaughter netty douglass. Edna Greene Medford, thank you for being on books that shaped america. And thank you for watching. We will see you next w were asking you what books you think shipped america. The books i think shipped america is by william faulkner. You can join in the conversation by submitting what book you can help shape this country. Select record video. Tell us your pick and why. Up next, the u. K. New Labour Party Leader addresses his conference in liverpool talk about changes to the goal economy at his plans to make housing more affordable, and improving the publicly funded health care system. This is just under an hour