Guest a ghost writer is an author who writes in the first person of another person. Host howd you get into that business . Guest its a long story. The short end of the story is i was an advertising guy after college and after graduate school, and i made up my mind i was going to go meet ray charles and talk him into letting me do an authorized biography of him, because i wanted to win the Pulitzer Prize and the nobel prize, and i didnt know anything about ghost writing. So i had a hard time introducing myself to him and sort of getting to him. But anyway, i was able to do it through my tenacity. And when i did this agency had met told me, you know, you want to do his autobiography. And i said, no, i dont. And he said, yeah, you do. I said well, you know, i dont know how to do that. I dont know what a ghost writer does. And he, and he said, well, youll earn a lot more money if you do can if you do a ghost written book because theres a much larger market for a ray charles book in his voice than there is for a biography of ray and i said i still dont want to do it. I want to do a biography under my own name. And then my agent asked me a question that really kind of changed my life, and the question was which book would you prefer to actually read, a book written by an egghead like you about ray charles or a book about ray charles written in rays voice . And i told him, oh, i would much prefer to read the book written in rays voice, and he said, then you should write the book you want to read. Not the one that you believe you should write. So that kind of changed everything. And then when i got with ray and i discovered there was a kind of musicality in his voice because, you know as you know we learn to speak before we learn to sing. And then it occurred to me, well, if theres a musicality in his voice and when i kind of create his voice on the page in other words, when i pretend im him when the i of me becomes the i of him, then ill be sort of making music. And there isnt anything i would rather do than make music. And then in doing rays voice i discovered i had a gift for it. And im not sure what the gift is but its something about the approximation of a voice. As you know, if you just do a transcription in other words, you know the words im telling you now, if theyre just kind of transcribed and you kind of read the transcription in the context of a book that is not a good representation of my voice. Because, you know, one thing i learned early on is that the eye hears much differently than the ear. So when you try i to create a literary voice its an artistic act. Its an act of artifice. You are creating the impression that this person talking to you is talking to you in a conversational way. So in order to do that, you have to move from the literal transcription to a kind of a sculpting, a kind of i dont know exactly what to call it, but youre sort of giving a person a literary voice. And that, as i said, is art. Its not a clerical function as i, before i began to do it, presumed it was. Host did you have any connection to ray charles . Did you have any connection to writing . Guest yeah. I had written in high school and college, and i had written advertising, and i had written academic essays, and i had written journalism. I had done a lot of writing. So, i mean, ive i was comfortable with the act but not this act of being a ghost can. That was entirely ghost. That was entirely new. And, you know, i went to college and majored in english i went to graduate school, i got an m. A. In english, but all that collegiate training didnt prepare me for being a ghost writer. I had never contemplated, id never taken a course in it. The only two books i really had in my consciousness was one was the autobiography of Billie Holliday lady sings the blues, which i loved as a young boy, and i knew that that was written by a ghost writer because i remember i read the book when i was about 12 or 13, and it had on the cover as told to william duffy. And i remember asking my father who is this guy . And my father said, well, hes probably the guy who actually wrote the book. And i told him no, no, no, the book was written by Billie Holliday because its all in her voice, and shes talking to you. And i remember my father told me well thats what he sort of does for her. Hes giving you the idea that shes actually writing the book. And then i remember asking does he get to go over to Billie Hollidays house . And my father said i presume he does. And then i remember i said, thats the job i want. And thats the job i have. Host so when we look at some of the books that youve ghost written, its a long story, my life, Willie Nelson guest right. Thats just about to hit stores. Host with david ritz. Guest there i am on the cover. [laughter] at the bottom. Host did you appear on the cover of the ray Charles Guest yeah. No, no ive always appeared, i think, on every book other than one. My names always appeared on the cover. And, do you know, in the beginning when i began out and i did ray charles book, i did a number of it was important for me that it, that, you know, my name was a certain size because i still hadnt gotten over this idea that ghost writers are looked at as something of a subcategory. And, but it took me a long time just to be comfortable with that. Host another book guest yeah. Host with just your name on it. Guest yeah. Thats a whole different story and thats the only time this has ever happened to me. In 1995 i met Aretha Franklin after chasing her for years. I had done this book with ray charles, and the next book i wanted to do was iowa aretha, because i loved her as i loved her music as passionately as i loved the music of ray charles. And she wasnt interested. So typical of me, i will kind of chase after artists and i will mail them postcards and call them until i can get a meeting and hopefully charm them into hiring me. And in arethas case, i did. And in the mid 1950s. In the mid 1990s, she hired me to ghost write her autobiography. But this was an instance where i cant and its the only instance where i didnt deliver the kind of book that i really wanted to. I had a hard time sort of gaining any emotional intimacy with her. And i didnt get her to reveal very much about her inner life. And so the book came out i wasnt happy with the book. So i took about 14 years and continued my research on her. And in october of 2014, i put out my own biography of aretha that i call, i call respect, because i didnt feel i had honored her art or the complexities of her story enough in doing her autobiography. But i dont expect to do that again anytime soon. In other words the books that ive done on ray charles or b. B. King or smoky robinson or marvin gaye are i am pleased with. I dont mean theyre perfect books, but i feel as no though from an historical point of view if you want to get to know these people and hear them talking to you and hear them telling you their stories then the books ive done with them are accurate and good and filled with funk and soul and heart. But in the case of aretha, i just didnt feel that way, and i just felt as though i owed it to her and to history to do my own version. Host david ritz, when you make an arrangement such as with Willie Nelson or smoky robinson guest yeah yeah. Host first of all, is there a nondisclosure agreement . Do you, can you be censored by the main author, by Willie Nelson . Guest yes, yeah. And im extremely glad you asked me that because thats one of the most interesting things about my work. I give away all control. I have no control. And i remember once peter i was at a conferences in austin on conference in austin on a panel of biographers and this biographer attacked me and said ritz shouldnt even be here because hes a ghost writer, and thats not a biographer. And one of the reasons i cant trust his books is because he has no editorial control over the content. And i had to agree with him. Now, i didnt agree with him that i shouldnt be on the panel, and i had to point out to him that who that the holy bible is a ghost written book, and we dont know who the author of that is other than the holy ghost, and there are other excellent ghost written books the autobiography of malcolm x by alex haley is looked at as a classic. But going back to the point of control, one of the points i made was that when you give control away when it it isnt an issue, you get more control because control isnt on the table as a point of contention. There isnt any so that the star, knowing that he or she has the ultimate editorial content and control over content can relax, and youre able to gain more intimacy that way. And usually at the end of the process ive gained enough of the trust of the star that i can pretty much control the content of the book. Now, you know, there are times when they dont want this in there, or they dont want that in there. But im, generally i kind of think our biggest addiction of all is control. And anytime i can give away control, im a happier person, and i think i work with greater integrity and greater empathy. Because what ghost writing is really all about is empathy and compassion. Because in order to get people the open up their hearts and tell you whats happened in their lives their conflicts, they have to feel as though you are not judging them and that you love them, on a certain level. And so when, if ive done well and i think i have its because ive been able to open up my heart with the people that ive worked with and established this kind of intimate rapport. Because, you know, in a certain way im a surrogate for the person who reads the book. Im a surrogate for the reader. Many many many people would like to be in my position and get to hang out with ray charles or Willie Nelson for, you know days and weeks at a time and hang out at the Kitchen Table and hear em tell stories. So im there just not for me, but for, you know all those untold numbers of people who want to gain access to these people. Host is it profitable . Guest it is. I mean, one of the other challenges i mean, you know, its interesting, i was just at a conference over the weekend music conference in seattle and a person asked me what do you think the purpose of a what did she ask . Oh, what is your purpose as a writer . And i said i have two. One is to avoid a nervous breakdown, and the other one is to sort of make a living. And the two tie together because if you have a nervous breakdown, you cant make a living. And if youre making a living you cant have a nervous breakdown. So for me as a freelance writer for the last 40 some years its been really important to make a living and not go nuts. And ghost writing has been a great way for me to keep my head above water from a financial point of view. And, because theres a builtin market for stars. They have an audience. And also they come to you with a story. So now, you know, i have written biographies and novels and essays. I mean ive written lots of stuff, but i go i keep my concentration on ghost writing because its where art and commerce sort of meet for me sort of neat for me. Im a commercial writer at heart i learned to write at an Advertising Agency i learned to write and ad copy. Once a copy wisconsiner copy righter, you know i gave up advertising because it became too easy and hacknied, and the creative challenge was go. Ive been ghost writing now for maybe 41 years and im still challenged because its hard. And you dont ever sort of get it right. And the idea were you to ask me to ghost write your book, you know id have to get to know you, id have to, id have to try to enter into your heart, in your head and get a good kind of feeling for how you use words and how you tell stories. And, you know, i might pull it off, or i might not pull it off. And then even beyond the sort of mechanics of theres also will i be a good enough psychologist to get you to open up and will i ask you to the write questions . Will i give you enough space which i havent been able to do in this interview, because ive been sort of talking the whole time. Host what if you agreed to write that book and i said i dont want your name on it . Guest thatd be hard. That actually has happened to me a couple of times. Now, its interesting you ask me that because i think i would like to be a person who could answer you and tell you i wouldnt care. I think that would be a more chilled out version of me. However, my ego now ego, i mean one of the reasons im happy to be a ghost writer is because i think had i sort of made it big as a nonghost writer, as a david ball dash chi or stephen king or james joyce i would be in corrigible. I would my megalo mania would go nuts, and you wouldnt be able to talk to me. Id be just like and but because ghost writing in order to be a ghost writer a good ghost writer and get lots of gigs, you have to deal with your ego. You have to submerge and suppress and tend to the hunger of your ego. It just cant have what it wants, because what it wants is what i told you in the original story, it wants to win the nobel prize, the the Pulitzer Prize and that isnt going to happen in an autobiography. Its just not. So i thank god for that. I thank god that being a ghost writer because i wanted to earn money and get more gigs ive trained myself to tend to the sort of gnawing demands of my ego. So im sort of relatively can chilled out in that area. But not completely. So to go back to your question, if you said to me do my book but i dont want your name on it, my answer to you might be, well good. But give me another 80,000 to keep off my name. Host do you get a set fee or is it based on guest everything. No, no no, every week is a different every book is a different sort of negotiation. There are no rules. You know, you have an agent. Your agent usually negotiates with the stars manager. But every book is every book is different. Host somebody else youve written with is tavis smiley. Guest yeah i love tavis. Host howd you get to know tavis . Youve written a couple of books with him. Guest yeah, this is number three, working on number four. How did i meet oh, yeah. The publisher of doubleday at time a man named steve rubin, had tavis under contract for an autobiography. And i had just written a book for steve about a big mogul in the music business. He was president of Columbia Records during the Michael Jackson days. In any event, rubin thought that tavis and i would be a good combination, so he put us together, and i wrote with tavis his autobiography. And then last year he and i did a book together about Martin Luther king jr. , last year in his life. And recently weve worked together on this book on maya angelou about his relationship to maya angelou. But tavis is sort of the ideal collaborator because he appreciates what i do, you know, and shows me great respect. And also i love how he speaks and i love his voice and hes intrinsically a good storyteller. So its, its been a great combination. Host is the ghost writing business a pretty big business that we dont necessarily know about . Guest yeah. The one area we havent talked about is deep ghosts which means that you dont have your name on it. You touched upon it earlier. But a deep ghost is a person who has ghost written a book for typically politicians will use a deep ghost because they want to give the idea that they actually wrote the book. And i dont know i havent done a survey on it, but i think i dont know whether a majority of books written by politicians are ghost written, but a large number of books written by politicians are ghost written. So yeah, its its and i ill tell you one interesting story about that. I was once on an airplane going to a conference, and i was next to a guy whos a well known novelist who i wont name because i dont want to hurt his feelings. And he asked me what i did for a living and i told him. He said, well, thats interesting. And then i he asked me what, which books i had done and i told him. And he said the only problem i have with that, he said, is that i dont have a lot of respect for a person who wants to write his life story and does not do it by himself. And i turned to him and i said, why . You can have a great story but not have the chops to be able to tell it. And just because you dont have the chops to write it doesnt mean that the world shouldnt enjoy it. I mean, you know, not Everybody Knows how to write a 400page book cohesively and authentically. I mean, its hard to do it. And so i think, i think there will always be a need for ghost writers. And im glad, because there will always be people with compelling stories to tell who just dont have the training to do it. So its, its i hope to do it until i cant do can it anymore. Do it anymore. Host david ritz, whats your connection to marvin gaye . Guest well, i loved him a lot. And he was another guy i chased after because i wanted to do his autobiography. And i just adored him. And had been listening to him ever since i was a kid. And in 1979 he put out 1978 he put out an album called hear my gear which was an autobiographical treatment, autobiographic call musical treatment of the acrimonious divorce he was going through with his wife. And the critics absolutely panned it. And i loved it. And i wrote a letter to the New York Times praising and arguing with the critics attacking him hoping he would read the letter in the times. He did and he called me. And we got together, and we began working on his book. Now, at the time he was not in great shape, and he went to hawaii and england and wound up in belgium. He wound up in europe, in belgium. And i went to belgium to continue to work on his autobiography. And thats where we wrote Sexual Healing together, the song, which was my way of trying to help him understand just what he was going through. So anyway, we wrote the song together. It was a big hit he came back to the united states. But most tragically, he was murdered by his dad in 1984 before he and i had a chance to complete his autobiography. So i took, i took a year in 1985 and wrote a book called divided soul which was my biography of him. And thats again, unusual for me because it was not a ghost written book. Had i given a choice, i would have much preferred to have done his autobiography, but i couldnt. He wasnt there to approve it he was gone. Though the book divided soul was, you know, full of marvins voice and quotes and our conversations we had over the years. But hes an artist, i mean, there isnt any artist who i really love anymore. He was very aristocratic and sweet and gentle and troubled. But charismatic in a very unusual way, very he was like a prince, he was princely. He had an elevated consciousness but also had a wicked drug problem. Host and, in fact, when you wrote that song, you were pretty, pretty well gone on cocaine too, werent you . Guest well, we were high, i mean almost all the time that i worked with marvin, i dont think i was ever with him when we werent high together. I mean, his main thing was pot and at the time i was a heavy pot smoker, and he always had cocaine. So i dont yeah. I mean, the answer is yes. [laughter] host have you made a lot of money off that song . Guest yeah yeah. Host do you still make money today off that songsome. Guest yeah, yeah. No, i mean, its been an incredible international hit. Helped put my kid through college, and its been, its been sort of amazing how popular that song has been over the years. And its one of the proudest accomplishments for me, because you know the idea that i would get to work with marvin gaye and that i could help him put into a song what was going through his mind, and he liked tavis. He was also a wonderful collaborator in that he appreciated, he appreciated me, and i think when he saw literary talent because he was a very kind of literary person himself, you you know, he read he knew bible and the quran and so forth, he was encouraging and full of praise for others. Host seems like youve worked with a lot of africanamerican artists. Guest yeah. Host ghost writing. Guest uhhuh, i have. Host why . Guest i just love africanamerican culture, and i love the music and its always kind of drawn me, and its what i listen to all day long. Its what i listened to when i was 8 9 years old. And part of what has given me my motivation is that im drawn to the music but then im drawn to the musicians so i can try to understand what drived them drives them. What in their past or what in their head or what in their heart enables them to create this amazing music. So, you know, i kind of my life i kind of moved to the grooves of africanamerican music, to jazz and gospel and r b. Host whats your background . Guest im jewish. I was i was born jewish in new york in 1943. Im 71 years old. I became a christian in 2005 maybe nine or ten years ago. And its interesting too because you asked me about africanamerican music. I was also, ive also always been drawn to the africanamerican church. And when i was a little boy, i remember going to africanamerican churches and everybody seemed to not just be having a good time, but something was happening in there that seemed important and rich and warm and loving and encouraging. But i, you know, i always had my nose pressed against a glass. And when i got to be an old man, im 60 or something years old i kind of made up my mind, i think ill go in that church. So im in that church. And am getting the kind of nurturing that ive always, always wanted to have. And its because of the music drew me into the church. It wasnt the theology, though, i mean, thats a whole other subject. But its the its the love and the positive energy and the acceptance of others that i hear in the music. You know, the glow, the excitement, the kind of nurturing that i hear in the music that i think is holy. And, you know, interesting one thing about aretha is in this book i wrote respect, one of the reasons shes as great as she is, because her she had a father who was a well known preacher in the africanamerican community. His name is reverend c. L. Franklin. And one of the things he taught her is that its all god; jazz, r b. I mean, in other words he kind of went against the tradition of the times and said you cant sing pop if you sing gospel. And one of the reasons she is such a great singer, she has no conflicts about that. And thats what i believe. I believe you can listen to lightning hopkins and muddy waters and b. B. King and be as prayerful as listening to Mahalia Jackson or a clara ward. Host nondisclosure agreements, are there things that you would like to have put in the Willie Nelson book, but you have signed a legal agreement saying no, i cant put that in here, and you cant talk about it . Guest no. I mean, i didnt have any nondisclosure no, i didnt have any nondisclosure agreement. As i told you before, they have editorial control, so they can cut out what they want to cut out. Now, maybe that equals nondisclosure, but, in other words, i didnt sign a piece of paper that now says i cannot tell the world what he told me not to tell. In the case of Willie Nelson he sort of basically did tell everything. But hes a generous guy and hes a gentle man, and he didnt he didnt throw anyone under the bus gratuitously. But, yeah that whole issue of nondisclosure and censorship has never been an impediment to my work other than in the case of aretha where i did kind of feel as though i wanted to tell more, there was more to the story. Host has your stutter been an impediment . In your lifetime . Guest you know, its interesting that you that you mention that. The music critic, robert krisgaw, did a review of the aretha book, and in it, he did an overview of my career. It was a very general warehouse article generous article, and i appreciated it very much. But in it he said he thought that my stutter helped me gain the sympathy and empathy of people i talk to. And because as a stutterer, i appear to be more empathetic than or vulnerable than perhaps i am though i do think im pretty everyone empathetic and vulnerable. That in his view my speech impediment has helped me as a ghost writer. And igy he might be wright i think he might be right. I know that ive struggled with it my whole life, and, you know, someone asked me the other day if you took a pill and it would make your stutter go away, would you . I probably would, you know . I still think i fantasize about complete fluency but its me. And i think the great thing about being a stutterer is that you do have to overcome it. I mean you do have to kind of, you know, agree to have an interview with you on national tv and say well, what the hell im going to stutter but it dont look too good or sound too good, but its me. And theres that that it is an emotional obstacle you have to come, and the other good thing about it is that it is an honest representation of my mood at any given time. In other words with you in this interview i have stuttered much less than i normally do because you have made me comfortable just your kind of vibe has. Another interviewer had, you know maybe was a bit harsher or impatient or was worried about i mean, i kind of knew you were comfortable with my stutter. So i have stuttered but it hasnt been kind of crazy. Were you a different person who im kind of feeling nervous this guys interviewing me, i would stutter much more. And that would be honest. Does that make any sense to you . Host sure. Guest so in that regard, its a good barometer of whats going on with me from an emotional point of view. Host david ritz, if a politician approached you to write a policy book or a history book a would you take the assignment and b, what would go into that . Guest well, you know, its interesting that you that you mention that. One of my fantasies as a ghost writer is to be a political ghost writer. I would love to write president ial speeches. I think itd be a kick in the head. And i think ive got the chops to do it, you know . I think i could get obamas rhythms down and do it. But, you know, no ones ever offered me the gig. But the answer to your question, if i liked the i mean, i wouldnt do can it with a politician who i didnt think was up to good or whose politics were way off mine. But if i felt comfortable with the politicians point of view and i felt he was up to good, i would positively do it. I mean, you know, one analogy about a ghost writer, i guess is kind of like youre kind of like an attorney in court that youre arguing for your client. And what youre arguing for the client is, is two words is basically believe me. And ill do it if i believe the person. In other words, ive worked with musical stars where we havent, where i havent quite believed them and it didnt work out. So yeah. I mean, the idea of doing a book with a politician would be great. And ive done books i did ive done books with sports stars, Gary Sheffield was, is was a baseball player. Laila ali, muhammad alis daughter, a boxer. Ive done a lot of different kinds of books, and i would love to do a book with a politician. Host does your name get out there once youve got a name on a book . Does somebody see it . How does it snowball into another book or another contract . Guest well, im still hustling, and i believe in the hustle. You know, ill tell you a quick story. When i did my first book, the ray charles book, i thought it was all over. I thought the next day id get a call from paul mccartney, mick jagger, eric clapton and id just have gigs for the rest of my life because, you know, ray charles is such a megastar. Nobody called. Nobody called. And one of the things i learned is that i cant count on the books that ive done to generate more work for me that i have to continue to go out and now i have an agent who i love, and hes also very proactive and his name is david zigliano. But i, i dont take anything for, anything for granted. But i also have to say and maybe this is whats kept me as a ghost writer whos always been able to work, i like the hustle. I mean, i like cold calls and i think its good to hustle. I think its good for us to look for work and expose oust ourselves and be ourselves and, you know, in other words, to kind of risk rejection, i think, is good for the soul. Because to be too protective, to say, well im not going to talk to this person because they may reject me, i mean that isnt me. I mean its okay to be rejected. But i try to tell people when i meet them the truth and if i want to do your book, ill just look you in the eye and tell you i really, really want to do your book. So i try not to be kind of too proud. Host what are you working on right now . Guest well, we have a contract i have a contract with tavis. This is our see, one two three, fourth book together. And were working on a book about the last 16 weeks in the life of Michael Jackson. So its sort of a condensed Michael Jackson book. Thats my current host and after that . Guest well, after that im chasing people, you know . I want to do a book with merle haggard, who i love. I want to do a book with the rock star lenny california visits to who kravitz, who i think is great and ive been talking to him. Theres all kinds of books i want to do. And then im also working on a novel about my childhood and im doing a graphic book with an artist about the history of my relationship to clothes, which is an interesting book because im kind of a clothes nut. So i want to do this graphic book. So im always working on four or five six things at the same time. Host are you writing any songs . Guest i am. Ive recently written some gospel songs with a good pal of mine. I wrote a couple of r b songs a couple of months ago, and i almost would rather write a song than anything else. I mean, i really kind of love it all. I love ghosting i like writing songs, im enjoying this graphic book that im doing im enjoying toying with this novel