Transcripts For CSPAN2 Sexual Assault In The Armed Forces - Transfer Polices 20171030

Their policies for those who report sexual misconduct. The Defense Advisory Committee is tasked with bringing its recommendations to the secretary of defense and Armed Services committee of congress. This is an hour and a half. [inaudible conversations] before we continue with our next panel, id like miss garvin to have the mic for a moment. During the break i had an opportunity to speak a little more to miss stolberg and asked her about her service dog and she authorized me to say how much the service dog has aided in her recovery and how important the dog is. And she pays for the dog out of pocket and did not have access to that as part of her recovery in any formal way so i thought it was important for us to know na piece of information in light of how much its helped in her recovery. Thank you. Okay. Were now going to begin with the briefing of the department of defense and military services expedited transfer policies. We have quite the distinguished panel. The only person is ms. Massey, who is missing from our printed agenda. Have you determined how youre going to start . I think ill start briefly here and then well probably go on down the row, is that okay with folks . Okay, doctor, you have the mic. Greetings. Its very nice to be here and see you all again, thank you so much for talking about expedited transfers. We are to give you a little bit of context for how expedited transfers came up, in about 2011, the Sexual Assault Prevention Response Program had been was about four or five years old and actually about six years old and we had had lots of conversations and a cadre of coordinators and victims out to the field and, a response system. What we were finding was that there were still some significant gaps in what we could do to support victims as they went through the military justice process, as well as the recovery process. So, one of the things that kind of sparked additional focus on this problem was a was the secretary, and he went and had a conversation with a number of members of congress in the fall of 2011 and he asked what else could we do to push the Program Forward and do to make a real difference. One of the first things that we were able to do was to create expedited transfers. We had heard that folks were coming forward. They were making reports of Sexual Assault. As you heard previously some were not able to move to a unit or get away from the individual that had sexual i assaulted them. And from a Clinical Psychology standpoint, i would tell you that the continued retraumatizization to being exposed to that person or people that impacted you in that horrific way prevents you from healing. It retards your healing process when youre continually retraumatized. And thats one of the things we thought with the process we could jump start it and at least give people a chance and as we were having conversation was not only victims, but also members on the hill, they thought that this was also a very important piece as well. So we largely came to the conclusion that this was a helpful approach. With me today is my senior policy advisor, diana and shes going to give you more details to the expedited transfer process. I wanted to say thank you so much for looking at this. We think this is one of the thingss been helpful for healing and its evolved a little bit over time since we kicked it off in 2012. Thank you very much for inviting us to speak today. I have been with the Sexual Assault prevention assault. Youll have to keep the mic i dont talk as loud as dr. Galbreath. Ill retell a little of the history and provide the dates to what dr. Galbreath re covered and get into the details of policy. The first transfer guidance was issued on may 6th by the then undersecretary stanley, dr. Stanley the services were required to issue him guidant following three criteria, that there was a presumption of transferring Sexual Assault victims if there was a credible report. Ensuring the transfer would not negatively impact the victims career and finally, authorizing an appeal to the first general or flag officer in the chain, is the if the first transfer is denied. Each of them may 31st by 2011. But as dr. Galbreath mentioned there was a lot of congressional interest, discussions between staff, our department, and the hill. So, consequently, addition policies, dodwide directive type memorandum, which is a temporary policy across the dod, this was issued on september 16th, and later incorporated into permanent dod instructions. That was when was updated march 20th, 2013. Congress passed its own version of the transfer policy mandate for fy 2012 and in that mandate it included 72hour time frame for making that decision on to approve or disapprove the expedited transfer and also the 72hour appeal process. And dr. Galbreath mentioned in january 18th a year i mean, a month after, the detail was issued and mba and a dod briefing at the pentagon, secretary panetta said it would provide victims more protection from possible harassment and removing those from the perpetrator. And ndas were for 2014 this time they added [inaudible] by authorizing transfer of the suspect. This is covered already in our dpn so we did not have to alter our policy. Let me turn to details of the all policy. So the intent behind the expedited transfer policy is not where the victim feels safe and not uncomfortable. Where the victim is in close proximity of the alleged perpetrator, perceived retaliation or wants to leave the low indication where the incident occurred and triggering memories. [inaudible] it is the victims choice and had to be initiated by a certain once submitted to the commander, the commander has the time and date because he has 72 hours or she has 72 hours to respond. The policy does establish presumption in favor of transferring the Service Member following a credible report and that credible report determination is made by the commander, with advice from the nci, military criminal investigation while reviewing the efforts available at the time. If theres no credible report found then the reasons for that decision must also be documented. There is a misconception as to the presumption though. The presumption is in favor of the transfer. Its not in favor of the exact location of the transfer. So the transfer could be permanent. It could be a temporary detail 90 days so the victim could recover. It could be inside the installation, or outside the installation. It could be to different barricks or duty location, night shift, instead of day shift and also the suspect could be transferred instead of the victim. The commander has a lot of flexibility based on the victims wishes and also necessity of the operational needs. If approved, the transfer order shall include the Service Members dependents if accompanied. The military spouse, and in most instances, different installations to 30 days and we saw should there are details and 76ers that go along especially with dependents or a military spouse. Again we mentioned already the commander must act within 72 hours. If the commander disapproves that expedited transfer its the victims choice, not automatic, the victims choice whether to appeal. If the victim wants to appeal that the first flag or in the chain to approve or disapprove. And [inaudible] a commander has an enumerated list to review and i believe all of you have a handout as it list. I want to point out three criteria that have to be reviewed. One of them is whether a transfer, temporary transfer would meet the Service Members needs and operational needs of the unit. Availability of positions within other units on the installation and the status of the impact of the investigation and after consultation with the ncios. And whether if they determine to go to Court Martial they have to return for that proceeding. In the handout number one, there are four additional areas of which Service Members have to be fully informed. One of them that i wanted to highlight to you is potential impact of the transfer or reassignment on the investigation and case position or initiation of other adverse action against the offender. Now, when the victim is transferred out, there is a warm hand off to the receiving commander. In the victim is still receiving Advocacy Services and the investigation or the Legal Proceedings are ongoing. Now the reason why this is done is to facilitate the investigation and services for the victim. So the commander will limit the information to objective facts about the victim care prevoided, status of the open investigation, and the status of ongoing legal readings. Handout number two that you have speaks to the commanders responsibility in the monthly Case Management. So for every adult special case unrestricted report there is a monthly Case Management group meeting. During that meeting which they review all Victim Services and also they discuss direct system coordination. All relevant parties come together, including advocates, health care, investigators, law enforcement, Legal Officers. And they have a discussion about the case. They discuss any challenges they experience, they discuss any allegations and retaliation not only against the victim, but against the Victim Advocate and responders or any members to the case. They also discuss expedited transfers, military protective orders, and any safety issues. Now, ncos conducting the case are the original location have to call into that month i meeting as the Legal Officers and provide updates on progress or challenges with the investigation to Installation Commander in an effort to facilitate any investigation issues. The case will stay on cmg agenda until all investigations and Legal Proceedings are complete and the victim declined Advocacy Services. In conclusion, its a program that favorably contributes to victims lives and recovery. Its very difficult for victims to come forward as our last survivor who spoke to us told us. This is always extremely challenging. Its amazing people ever come forward and tell of a horrific event that happens in their lives. The expedited transfer has opinion been mandated on two occasions and it provides support for victims of sexuality assault and removing them from the alleged perpetrator. Thank you, and ill be happy to answer any questions you have. Can we hold questions until the end . Thank you. Good afternoon, im paul rosen, from the navy, director of navy Sexual Assault prevention and branch. Ill talk specifically about the importance to navy of expedited transfer policy and process. In addition to it being the right thing to do, which is to support victims in any way that we can, its important for navy, for any sailor that suffered a trauma, particularly one of this nature to try to do anything we can to get them both personally and professionally well. And so that they can continue their career and continue to contribute to the service which hopefully they love and that we need them to do. We have found that the reasons that sailors request expedited transfers are as diana indicated, moving away from the subject of the report. We also find a lot people who require expedited transfer, for family and friends, specific support Services Located prior, maybe they were worldwide somewhere and needed to move for Additional Support services. The policy has been in place for several years and as you heard we completed in navy a review of our process to try to make sure its as good as it can be and theres probably some minors tweaks we make to that. One specific policy piece in navy that is a little bit different is that in the request process, its the request by the victim to make expedited transfer is not approved by the Commanding Officer with the navy, it automatically goes to the first flag officer. It doesnt require the victim to make another request and a 72 hour period when the first flag officer ultimately makes the decision to flturn it down r approve it. I want to thank you again inviting us to discuss this and look forward to any questions you may have. Miss reed. Ill dale reed i work at marine headquarters response, one of the policy specialists. Ive been with the program 2011 and i was on board when the policies were stood up and marine corps took on the task of expediting transfer process and have been supporting it since that time. When the marine corps looked at implementing the policy, im not going to reiterate, it was important for us to keep the victims needs in mind as well as to make sure that it was a seamless process for our marine corps transfers. We wanted the marine who was getting a he can expedited transfer to flow back into the normal process and not stand out any more than necessary. So we took it upon ourselves to work with our manpower management, together we built a process where headquarters marine corps serves as liaison, the victims advocates work with victims who submit their requests through and worked out at their location. It comes to the headquarter staff. We walk downstairs and we work with we hand the paper work to our manpower and that just flows into our regular transfer process. There are only certain people in the manpower management that work those expedited transfers so gep, so again, were doing our utmost that theyre not pointed out or registered in their world. And when theyre transferred it looks like just a transfer. That was important to us. We have been very successful and went through another review of our processes. They released another letter of review of instruction. We have included expedited transfer process in our precommand training with our commanders so they are getting from headquarters what that is it look like and their roles and responsibilities, whether they are receiving a victim, or whether they are losing a victim. Because there are things that they need to know on both sides of that equation. Our sarks are very supportive at the fleet level and we have support at Headquarters Level. Again, ill be more than happy to answer questions and thank you for this opportunity. Colonel. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Im colonel melanie prince and from the directed Violence Division at Headquarters Air force, thats isdv and its responsibility for the strategic guidance for five types of violence, one being Sexual Violence and its in the Sexual Violence branch that we have the Response Office. Ive been with the program for all of three months officially, although i have been engaged with the air force office for about a year. So, again, i wont, try not to be repetitive as my colleagues have already mentioned about you our expedited transfer program has policy, process and procedures that are codified primarily at the air force personnel assignment. The Sexual Assault prevention and response and the air force Family Advocacy program, so three areas where we have regulations. And the expedited transfer process was assigned to meet the needs of the victims following an unrestricted report of a Sexual Assault, while balancing Mission Requirements as assessed with the chain of command. Additionally, as part of a comprehensive and capabilities of victims and survivors other agencies play a Critical Role in the execution of the expedited program as relates to victim advocacy to include, but not limited to the special victims counsel, physical and Mental Health care from our medical agencies, rigorous investigation from the office of special investigations. Accountability via the military justice process, facilitated by the judge advocate generals for a legal agency. And Mission Effectiveness and Mission Continuity from our command Leadership Structure and aided by counsel from a majority of the response agents that ive listed. So very much a systemsbased approach. The result of an expedited program which has vertical and horizontal checks and balances. And the office assesses the expedited transfer Program Using feedback, survivor stories and record reviews to look for opportunities to improve the process. So, for example, the air force has focused on ensuring that we have the ability to transition victims to locations where the victims are supported and continue the healing process. When possible transfers are process to the victims Systems Recovery by moving to a location where no one knows about the Sexual Assault. And the commanders, youve already heard and the sark are aware of the arrival of that airman and based on feedback and reviews that weve done, this gets we ensure confidentiality is contained and allows the unit commander and the sark to have awareness and the ability to react appropriately in the event a victim requires Additional Services or support after arrival. So this policy change was published this very month through an air force Guidance Memorandum that went out to the field last week. And clear thing, the air force is committed to this orderly execution of expedited transfer policy for both victims and alleged offenders. We support Victim Recovery by offering expedited transfers of victims and our transfers of alleged offenders as one of several options conducive for care and recovery. We facilitate the program to make sure that the training is relevant and rooted in official guidance and continuously reviewing at the Headquarters Level and also work diligently to sustain a culture of containment and improvement. We want 0 your program to be collaborative with the agencies and constantly making assessments at all levels of the enterprise. So we value feedback of all types and methodically use it to build the program possible to support our airmen and their families especially when we realize theyre most vulnerable. So thank you for the opportunity to speak to you this afternoon and look forward to your questions. Focus on transfers of members, whether it be normal transfers as well as expedited transfer requests. Unlike the other services, the coast guard is unique in that the personal Service Center handles all transfer request and that includes local commanders dont have that authority. All those requested, to the coast guard to psc, and they will be evaluated at that time for the appropriate offices. Officers who go to opm, for enlisted personnel it will go to epm. I will go through our procedures with that. Upon a request of the expedited transfer, the sapro by the Sexual Assault prevention and Response Office Crisis Intervention Team which is a lot like a Case Management group that was referred to earlier will convene. That includes the special agent in charge, the judge advocate, our Service Legal office as well as a medical representative at a senior representative from the victims and subject commands. They will need to determine how to process the request. It will determine what area the victim is making the request to transfer themselves or to have the alleged subject moved. It also can occur. At the victims request. The victim will make the request to move lets want to move to an area with to confirm support network, mother, father, brother sister as well as continuing to get those Recovery Services that they can get. The request will come to psc within 72 hours, and the psc will have two weeks to determine if we can approve their request. At that time we will cut the orders. They will have seven days to execute those and they will be moved. Psc does not make the notification to the receiving commands. That responsibility falls to the saprocit, to brief the incoming command of the situation. If there is a denial of that request, again like they dod will go to the next lack of certain data will be forwarded on to psc to our flag for adjudication of the case at that time. We find we want to provide the most career production for the member as well as balancing the needs of the service. We find that we have had very good success in getting the Member Services and often we engage with, we will reengage with them to confirm the member is receiving the services that they need and for the best possible outcome. I look forward to your questions. Thank you. Ms. Massey. I am a laura massey, the policy branch chief for the department of army sexualharassment assault prevention of the spirit ive been in this position since 2015. Overall the armys policy mirrors the dod policy that were briefed by sapro by one or to take an opportunity to share our processes and procedures that are specific to the army. Our Service Specific expedited transfer policy is contained in an Army Directive title expedited transfers are reassignment procedures for victims of Sexual Assault dated october 3rd, 2011. The annual, their annual measure personal messages that submit this policy and Army Human Resources command published the most current infantry 2017. It is also the armys policy that there is presumption in favor of transfer or reassignment of a Sexual Assault victim at his or her request following a credible report of Sexual Assault. A report is credible when the commander, battalion or above, after considering all Available Evidence and advice of the supporting legal officer concludes there are reasonable grounds to believe and offense constituting Sexual Assault has been committed against the person requesting the transfer or reassignment. A transfer or reassignment includes but is not limited to the victims temporary or Permanent Military unit within the same battalion or brigade, to unit within the same division, to unit on the same installation or to unit at a different geographic location. Through a reserve component members of transfer reassignment might include provisions to perform or inactive duty on a difficult weekend or at different times from the subject or with a different unit than in the home drilling location. When a victim files in and restrict report the Sexual Assault response coordinator or sarc or Victim Advocate will notify them of their ability to request an expert of transfer. When a victim files their report their notified at the time an expert entrance would be an option. They receiving regarding the expedited transfer process during their professional training. A soldier must initiate the transfer request in writing on and on personal action form and submit the request to the Commanding Officer. The Commanding Officer will document the date and time the request is received and within 72 hours from the receipt of the request or reassignment or transfer the commander in the chain of command must provide the decision regarding the soldiers request. The Approval Authority for local moves that did get across army commands, Army Direct Reporting Units is the lowest level commander exercise authority over both the losing and gaining unit. The disApproval Authority is a first general officer or Senior Executive service in the soldiers chain of command. Decision by the gl must be made within 72 hours of the commanders recommendations of disapproval. The Approval Authority for local moves that to cross is the Senior Commander at the installation to the disApproval Authority for local moves that cross those use the Senior Commander provided this instrument is a general officer. At the scenic man is not a gl dentist will authority is the first gl and the soldiers chain of command. Decisions by the gao must be made within 72 hours again. The commanding general of the Human Resources command as Assignment Authority to execute pcs moves for the victims of Sexual Assault. Command endorsement for an expert or of transfer involvina pcs move are sent to hrc and include a case number and statement from a soldier explaining why they are requesting the moon. The command endorsement should include appropriate recommendations to the first commander in the chain of command exercising the generals courtmartial convening authority. The command will include in the recommendation that they consult with a Legal Adviser leader is a credible report of Sexual Assault at a local move once considered, the victim was informed of any potential impact of the move on the investigation. The victim may have to return for prosecution. Future disposition of the allegation and potential prosecution or other adverse action that may be initiated against the alleged offender here at the potential for any bonus recruitment if applicable. Reasonably foreseeable career impacts, and any of the possible outcomes that could come from granting such request. Also stick the soldier understands the selection of a permanent change of station does not guarantee the station of joys and that they believed the ring syme is in the best interest of the soldier and the organization. Recommendations for pcs disapproval of a credible report required command endorsement with justification afforded to hrc with the original request. The commanding general of hrc normally a Major General is the disApproval Authority. A victim may request pcs locations as a part of their expert a transfer request. Pcs pcs expert or transfers ordinarily made to a valid authorized requirement in the continental United States and in accordance with the needs of the army. Due to the size of the army the army does of latitude to grant soldier location request. Hrc doesnt does its best to audit the locations when possible. If the soldier is an identity such as infantry, military police, hrc is more likely to audit the request as the army does have more flexibility. It becomes difficult on a request with lowdensity such as a parachute rigor or technical specialist as there must be an authorized retirement at the location. Since the policy went into effect six years ago, more victims have been transferred to fort hood than any other location. In closing, the army feels the expedited transfer program is a service offered to the concealed them recover the victims of Sexual Assault may not wish to remain in the current unit or organizations after the Sexual Assault incident. Requiring a soldier to remain when they have a desire to leave the organization may negatively affect their safety and Emotional Wellbeing as well as of the functioning of the unit or the organization. Expediting the review of an action on a victims request for transfer or reassignment is an important component of elitist response to a credible report of a Sexual Assault. Thank you. I look forward to answering your questions. We have plenty of time for questions. I will start off. Thank you all for being here. I have a question, and id like for each branch to answer this question. So that we can get the perspective of all the services. Could you tell us the effect of the transfer on the victim participation in the military Justice System . The victim care and services, and do you have any data on the retention of those transfer victims in each branch of service . On behalf of the navy, the effect of the victim within the military Justice System oblate serves one of things you asked, and i dont have specific statistics that would indicate participation by expedited transfer victim as the percentage of the whole versus a victims participation without. I would be something that in interest would have to go back and see if we could grab anecdotally there doesnt appear to be, theres nothing that we are aware of at the time that would indicate a gap in the process. Even more so than we would fight any nonexpedited transfer victim. If i may so that everybody, we can maybe give you a preview of what the data will say when the come back and talk to you in january, our data right now says that folks to receive an expedited transfer participate in the Justice System at just about the same rate as folks that dont receive an expert or transfer. The exact numbers and data and what each service picture will look like will be coming to you when we come back and see you in january. I think you also asked about the support system for expedited transfer victim. Victim care services. Right. And again we have no indication that the expedited transfer victim or services intercity different than any other unrestricted reporting victim. So theres nothing that we see that would indicate that. And then also retention. Do we have any idea what the retention is . We just begin looking at that in navy because we did a look at our process, and because of the fact that the policy is relatively new, theres not a tremendous amount of run time to determine whether we see higher or lower retention than we would for either unrestricted reporting victims who dont request transfer versus sailors who dont make a a report of a Sexual Assault at all. That is something were continuing to pursue with the followon study since with more of a runtime now behind us. But at this point i will have any data to provide to you. That would be the same with the marine corps with regard to retention data. The impact on services with regard to victim care support, one of the things we look at very closely within the sarc before the request will come to us and then once it does, through us, we are very cognizant of what services are needed and we make sure that the locations, manpower management is also cognizant of what is where. And so our goal is to make sure that they are transferred to a location that has the needed support services that are available to them. We specifically would not, even if a victim would request like an ini or a reserve unit that is sitting in a remote location, even though it might be a mere support system we would have conversation with the sarc to go through how damaging that could be to be in iceland location work in a very small unit, and will try to redirect their preference to a location where they would get better support and have the facilities around them. So its a team effort on our part to ensure that if the victim is still in the process and wanting advocacy, that they get placed in a location where they can get that care and support. Yes, sir. Thank you for that. Similar to my colleagues, i dont have any data either on the retention aspect. In terms of victim care and services, that is one of the considerations that we expect the commanders to discuss with the victim when they are requesting that expedited transfer. I also believe, i mention in my remarks, that a new guidance memo was published this last week which allows the air force to notify that gaining commander and sarc. So the hope there is the will be even more discussion and analysis of what is available in the local area to support that victim prior to transferring to the new location. And in terms of the data on the Justice System i know data is pending. Were collecting that to give to you all a little bit later. But i would just did to say that these are activeduty members and in know that the Justice System can certainly connect and reach out and touch them at all times from the victims perspective. We have not found any changes in their ability to participate or not participate in the system. Thank you. Like my colleagues i dont have any data about the retention or the military Justice System, their participation. I will say when we look at conference support network in their memo that is submitted to psc, it has a section for medical support services that are requested at that time. As well as, we want to ensure the victims are getting the best possible services, where theyre going as well as also providing that emotional support system to where they may be going to. And also like my colleagues i dont have data on the retention, nor the specifics on the participation in the military Justice System. Noted, that is one of the things i command it does discuss with the victim, the possibility they will have to travel back to participate. As far as the support system, as i litter to a special are high density, first they look at making sure that our services at the location, government provided services, that was alluded to like my colleagues in the marine corps. He goes there a lot of times multiple locations they can then look at the request of the soldier and see if they have that family a friend support network nearby. So they are able to provide that sort of natalie the victim care but the support system on the outside as well. The question about retention, it is a Research Study to do, and we are doing that research. I dont think i will have anything for you in january but we are looking at a number of different sources to get after that. We have funded some research to understand exactly how that works better as you know theres no identify really in a personal system that would say you are a victim of Sexual Assault or not, so that means it lines up with the folks that we have on file in the defense of Sexual Assault incident database, and then i have to marry that up with people who have been separated. But in addition to that we also have to know whether or not thats a normal separation rate is for folks anyway so that you can see whether or not separation is higher or lower for folks who experience a Sexual Assault or participate in a transfer program. Its not a press the button and watch it with. I believe retention is a very important thing. All branches we care about retention, but if so many sexually assaulted they choose to leave and not have a clear on military because of the Sexual Assault, they will also be recruited but it will not be a positive recruiter for our military. How we take care of victims and if we can retain them and do positive things for them, thats great. We actually need the numbers. Agreed. I wanted to add to that. The role of the monthly Case Management Group Meetings to check up on the Victim Services. Thats why when the victim is transferred there is that notification to that gaining commander. In the discussion in the monthly meeting to talk about whatever access to services the victim wants, whether its medical, Mental Health, if theyre having difficulty getting into the Mental Health clinic that something the commander can facilitate. But that monthly checkin helps to quickly identify what part of the system are not working for the victim even when the transfer. Id like to hear each of the Service Representatives whether or not there is any method in place either adopted to assess from the perspective of a Service Person requesting transfer how well they think the system is working. When they get to the new commands, do they feel as though they are arriving without any Statement Associate with the circumstances under which they were transferred . Do they do the services that they are receiving as services that equal to or better than the services that might have been available from the location where they were transferred from . We have foreseen the very similar topdown directives that a come from higher headquarters as to what is to be done, how do you measure success with the use of the people youre trying to take care of . So one of the things that we will make sure that the committee gets is the results of our force wide survey that asked the very question you just did, that of the folks that received the force wide survey and expensive sexual sought and received an expedited transfer, we have rates of at least how well that worked for them on a number of different variables. And by then go into great detail right now will make sure that you get the results of those forcewide survey called the workplace and gender relations survey as well as the military investigation Justice Experience survey which is a survey that goes directly just to victims of Sexual Assault that if completed their participation in the Justice System here we will make sure the committee gets that data. [inaudible] the Justice Experience survey is an anonymous survey. The workplace and gender Workplace Survey is a confidential survey. Thank you. I just have a followup question. What is the Response Rate on the surveys . Do you have a high Response Rate . Yeah. With the workplace and gender relation worship a response which is usually between 2930 at its randomize stratified sample. They are very good and reliable and representative of the entire force and reliable to the entire force. The other surveys different. Ipab i been look at waste route boost the Response Rate, very low rate to that when only represents about 150 or so victims of this last year and the first i would did it was two years ago and only about 200 folks responded back to us. At the end of the day how does that translate into a Response Rate . I dont have the pursuit of the top my head that i can tell you it is fairly low. Its not as high as would like it to be. It is not generalizable. It is a convenience sample of folks are completed the justice process. Again, more information coming to you. Just make sure i understand. You have described the feedback process. Sf for all services, identical for all services . Yes. The workplace and gender survey is force wide so it represents that was for the dod as a whole. Keep in mind that the smaller categories you go into, margins of error increase because it is a representative sample. Bottom line is that some categories were not able to necessary report out by every service but we continued the dod experience as a whole. Several of you indicated that the expedited transfer can be both for the victim and the alleged perpetrator. Is that true for all the services . To clarify, the policy applies to victims the make and unrestricted report of a Sexual Assault. For the good order and discipline of any unit the command officer can always move an individual away from the unit, and that would be a policy at least with the navy the potential would be used for a subject. Its not a a request by the subject though. Do you know what the percentages when these type of allegations are made and whether theres a transfer of the alleged victim or the alleged perpetrator . No, sir i do not for navy. When an alleged perpetrator is transferred, is someone notified at that new location of why the transfer has occurred . Again, speaking on behalf of the navy, we dont have a policy per se that would enable a subject of a Sexual Assault to be transferred. Typically what would happen if they are moved out of the unit, its probably within the same chain of command navy from like a squadron to a wing level, tickler if theres an investigation and potential adjudication ongoing. Thats not necessary something that somebody at the navy would transfer anyway. With several branches i i thought did so you could transfer the suspect, so id like to know the answer to the question about with the receiving facility and a suspect transferred know the reason why . Just to clarify it is required by law. So back in 2012 that was for the victim. And again the victim initiated with the 72 hour time frame. With a suspect he came out in fy 18 and vista timeframe, not for putative reasons. They stated its [inaudible] im sorry . Good order and discipline. Both cause a transfer are required by law. Does anybody have statistics on how often that is done . Yes, we do. We can provide that. Several hundred cases of expedited transfers happen every year. The numbers that are declined a very small. I do have the top numbers right off the top of my head, but i can tell you that one of the reasons we track is the subject or the cues was moved instead and i have numbers on that. Again i i just want to follw up on the question, whether it is for the good of the order, still a suspect being transferred presumably where the complainant doesnt want to be or elects not to so if the receiving institution told the underlying reason for the good of the order that this person is being transferred . For the marine corps there is of her friend up for the commanders to be reviewing all inbound personnel, and if there is Sexual Assault related incident, it would be on that record. So its a protocol that is followed for any inbound transfer and they should be annotating, it would be annotated but but i would concr with the navy that the commanders had that good order and discipline and they are probably maintaining control of the alleged offender or the alleged subject. But in any event the commanders, it would be on that marines of record and the commander have eyes on that. Any different for any of the other branches . With the air force i would have to confirm with my colleagues because im a bit new at this. So to answer that specific question as to whether they gaining command is notified of the circumstances surrounding the alleged offender, similar to my colleague here, any inbound ehrman, sorting the command are looking into that persons record but i can certainly get back to the committee on that. And there was another question. So yes, the air force, as she said this is law, both victim and alleged offender to have the opportunity for that expedited transfer. I can say though that the receiving Sexual Assault response coordinator, sarc, will not be a participant because they are advocates for the victim. If i might clarify. Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, we do not, our program, were not involved in any movement of the alleged offender. We do not classified as an expedited transfer. Its all managed under the commanders option for good order and discipline. Its just a marine corps move if that is, you become if if that is the direction the command ops to take. I want to finish up with the last two branches. For the coast guard that is something that is handled. We give the alleged subject move. We are policies in place for that the receiving command will be notified through the saprocit usually through the legal channels and we try to place the alleged subject within the same jurisdiction area. So if the incident occurs in miami we will try to keep the person somewhere within florida in order to allow the case to continue but the alleged subject has to be offered the opportunity to continue to progress within their career, to be serving in a public area and with oversight but the number of people that know which is limited to the senior command officials. And for the army it is very similar as well. The commander can decide to move a subject, often does not for the purposes of the judicial process. However, all subjects, their personnel files are flagged. If the subject is moved that flag would be in a file for the new command team to see that they are a subject. On that i just wanted they try understand what it is that the new command has as information about the reason for the suspect being transferred. I appreciate that investigation may be new, by definition there is credible determination of complaint, otherwise it would not be something that would be thought necessary for the good order and has been in the military. But thats a generic category, and if the receiving command, if theres a flag on the file and it would transfer for the good order and discipline and they dont have some idea, even though theres been no adjudication and jeff to protect both the rights of the victim as well the rights of the cues, do they have information at least that alerts them that there may have been this allegation is for no other reason than to make sure that they are not sending them to another location where they can be another victim . That i think is a level of detail were trying to get our hands on, just to have that step this has there been sent out in the good order discipline of the military and that theres a flag on that, that allows any number of inferences to be drawn. I cannot answer for the services as to what policies they have, but let me provide the committee a bit of context as my former life i was an air force office of special investigations from investigator, and while this policy exists when i was a criminal investigator, what i will tell you is that when a criminal investigation happens one of the first steps is that the individual is put on some kind of administrative hold, flagged, or things along that line. This is so the individual cant initiate a pcs move, cant initiate any kind of go to school or training with things like that and move away, retire or separate. Thats the first thing. The second thing is that command is regularly briefed about the status of a criminal investigation, and so a move like this at the end of the drill i would tell you is that the staff judge advocates, the defense attorneys, the criminal investigators all are going to have dibs on where the accused is going to be. In other words, the person isnt just picked up and moved off into a system somewhere, that this person is part or the target for the subject of an active criminal investigation. Its not as also is going to turn up in your unit and you would not know that this person is under investigation, because this person is going to be going through justice proceeding or things along those lines. So allow us to connect the dots for you on what the policy is in each of the service but that the contacts. Helpful but under investigation of Sexual Assault or just under investigation for any of the 134 articles in uniform code of military justice . Thats correct. We will have to find out for you. Are there any Due Process Rights for the accused or the suspect when, for example, i understand its for good order and discipline but, but for the ending the subject of a sex assault investigation. Theres no other reason for them to be moved for good order and discipline so my question is, do they get, is there an appeals process within . Also the followup to that is, how are the military defense bars responding to suspect moves . Are they filing motions for relief for unlawful pretrial treatment . Are they seeking mason credit . Do we know if theres any impact on the military Justice System . I would give you a very respectful i dont know, im not an attorney. But what it would offer to you is is a really good questions or followup attorneys for some of those. In the law i can tell you that there is no provision that i know of that allows a commander to move suspects accused of a Sexual Assault of any kind of relief or anything because its not as result of a legal determination. Congress was explicit that was for the good order and discipline within the unit. I would say you have to followup with the staff judge advocates and the defense counsel. I have a question on, seems to me people covered under fap, theres a carved for the expedited transfer. So if somebody who would be covered under fap is the victim of a Sexual Assault, what avenues are available to them . Kathy robertson will be here in january to answer your questions on the Family Advocacy program. But so anybody who falls under that is not covered in the stats we get . From the transit program, correct. From the services, you all have a carveout for that come all of you . So any stats from the navy, air force, marines, coast guard, army for expedited transfers would not cover family members, right . Correct. The statute doesnt make it this distinction, does it . It just talks about Sexual Assault, right . So theoretically there should be something similar out the other side. Yes. Kathy robertson has some data for you. I want to draw everybodys attention to the time of reference. [inaudible] i had a question about, i noticed in looking at that data for 2016 2016 there were 19 cai believe that with the right number where the request of the victims were an expert at transfer were denied. Why are those requests denied, typically . We have all the reasons why. Sometimes the person is undergoing a medical evaluation board, and unlocks a metabeing able being able to be moved. Sometimes the accused is moved instead it sometimes theres not a credible report, then theres a couple of the categories that a member right off the top of my head. Of the cases where it is determined the report was not credible, do you have any data or anecdotal information on the impact of the victims credibility at trial . I do not. So for example, defense attorney saying under cross examination, you requested an expert at transfer, true . Yes, i did. It was did not come wasnt . Yes, it was picked. It was denied because your commander and the military police found that there was not credible information . True. Its a possibility but because the numbers are so small, and in addition to that if there was no credible evidence at that time that might end up in an unfounded case. That wouldnt necessarily go forward in the justice process. Thats my guess with knowing have the data works. But again i cant answer directly for that. And expedited transfer determination could potentially have an impact on even whether a case can be shepherded through the military Justice System . Is possible. It certainly is possible. I think they would have to look at expedited transfer [inaudible] we cant you get. Expert at transfer request comes in at different times. They even come in after the courtmartial when the suspect is found not guilty. So divina when the request comes in his window looking at the evidence before them. Just because theres not enough evidence at that moment does not mean that theres not more evidence coming in later on. I understand that. My primary concern is the impact on the victim, should the vicm find him or herself on the witness stand at the trial and earlier in the process theyve been denied an expert at transfer because there wasnt credible information. Thats all i was wondering about. That situation would probably be exceptionally rare. This last year there were only three cases out of about 700 some where a credible report, they didnt know the person because there wasnt a credible report. Like i said thats very, very rare. If youd like to look, this is the data for the sapro report is here and that information about the categories is on the last page right before tap number six pick you can see all the reasons why people did move. But lieutenant styles, you mentioned that in deciding this its also the needs of the member balance with the needs of the services, and colonel prince come you said we want to meet the victims needs while bouncing Mission Requirement needs. Do the of the forces have the same Mission Requirements need built in . Yesmen. For navy when the request is made the ghost of our personal command and are looking for the fit based on the reasons the request was made and also what the needs of the navy are, and the needs of the sailor professionally Going Forward. We dont want to send somebody who is an aviation technician to a surface ship base with the cant work on their Corporate Office a look at my are Navy Personnel command. If theres a lipid of trade space theres a discussion with command to try to find out what the best fit will be both for navy and for the requesting servicemember. Our victims are encouraged to submit three desired preferred locations understanding managing expectations, but then within manpower their goal is to keep them within their mos and to put them in a place because of their working with a monitor has been tracking this marine throughout their career and that monitor is providing that overlook to make sure that where they are going is still going to move them forward in their career progression. They make every effort to move a marine out of their mos and into a location that would not assist them moving forward. Army, you can always find a place, right likes. Either couple of questions. One Pretty Simple probably. Its a followup to a bunch of questions asked earlier but i didnt hear this specific mentioned. It probably ties into the retention, but in this questionnaire that is being done, or survey, and i heard said its not supposed to affect the career of the person being transferred. Is there a question in there about whether the person feels it has affected their career along the way . I cant break that out by folks with an expert at transfer but i please take in the expletive transfer. In general i have a question that says that goes to the folks that experience, the said they experienced sexual in the past year, and the question is, is did you take any active steps to separate or did you think about separating . That information is in our Workplace Survey and i can provide the back to the committee. Its actually important because one of the criteria we heard by the way, i want to thank you all extremely valuable for coming here. It seems to me would be important to know retention rates may reflect whether they think their career was hurt but assume el cid may also reflect just the nature of a Sexual Assault, may want to make them separate. But it would seem to be too tight and whether they think their career has been affected would be extremely important for the expedited transfer request to know. It is, and so like a set as a get some data that talks about their career, vast majority of the folks that go through and expedited transfer say that their experience with their living situation is about the same or better. With their support, the medical and Mental Health care is about the same or better. Their career progression a little bit less than the other things, but like us it is we looking to that data. The challenge is, is that the number of people in the expedited transfer bucket is about 700 folks every year versus several thousand people that may have experienced a Sexual Assault and not reported it and not come through the process. And so as result my numbers in the survey get a little fuzzy. I have one totally unrelated question probably for mr. Rosen. The number of unrestricted reports requesting transfer in the navy are three times or twice as high as some of the other services. Is that because the nature of the navy people around ships or do you know why its so much higher . No sir, i dont. We run somewhere of between 2830 of our unrestricted reports, independent expedited transfer request. Some of that probably does have to do with the expeditionary nature of how we do business, particularly if there is a victim that is looking at Ongoing Services and support. If there on a ship that it they are getting ready to deploy or on deployment that may try that number up but thats just speculation. Because its three times as high as the air force and more than twice as high as the army and still 50 more than the marine corps. Does anybody have any idea as to why that is . You want to ask a question . Im passing. Do you break out the request by the nature of the complaint whether its penetrative or nonpenetrative offense . Do we know . The air force does not burbach does not are you dont have it . Does not break it up. Army . To my knowledge no, we dont break it up. Coast guard . No. Not within this process. The navy . The same thing. Im sure we have more questions. Over here. As i i understand the definition of a transfer, in a large command it could be moving a person from upstairs to downstairs, or from one side of the base to the other, or , or i guess theoretically an aircraft carrier, not even off the boat. But the goal of this is to minimize the encounters between the victim and the alleged accuser. Do you have any data on how many times a person is not real really geographically moved but is considered transfer . I do in a general sense. I have numbers about how often that they go, they result in pcs move, installation transfer versus basically a unit or a duty transfer but i dont have anything underneath that. But essentially there were 62 requests for unit or duty transfers. That would be kind of a cross the basement or different unit move. Then in 2016 there were were 684 requests for installation transfers. So the victim decides what level they want to be transferred . Oftentimes thats part of the request. Do you keep count as to, is a transfer considered to be granted when the victim request pcs move and is given basically an intrabasement . I dont think so, largely because if the request pcs move and that doesnt satisfy their need at that time, then thats the reason they could appeal to the next higher, to the general officer. Lieutenant styles, i do question for you but the coast guard i know the coast guard is not part of deity but the 72 hour action timeline does apply to the coast guard. Did i hear you correctly that your decisionmaking line is two weeks . Two weeks for us to make a decision. We find the timeline is a lot faster. Does the statute requires 32 hours or is that just dod policy . Its upon reporting for us to receive the actual request. Once it comes to psc we have up to two weeks to adjudicate the request and sometimes it does take a time because we may have to go back to the command, what say we dont know where the confirmed support network is or who want to engage through the sarc to find the best fit for the career member with her progression. That may take time but most of the time were processing these requests within a few days. Your office as part of the Commandants Office . We are geographically located at coast guard headquarters of the personal Service Center is, we are our own unit. The fall under the Human Resources. Im just trying to understand the structure. If you deny, whose command is making the decision and who is the next black officer . We have our own flag officer at the personal Service Center, and then so the next black officer in that chain of command will make a recommendation to lets say its a denial. It will go to that victims next black officer, so could be added district. That request will then be sent to the psc. Psc admiral will been reviewed and they can make a determination at the time. Thank you. I very much appreciate having this data but coast guard is not reflected in the data. A very simple question. Do we have the ability to get from you from the coast guard similar data about expedited transfer numbers and denials . I think we provided the did i just mention it . We had i believe it is 18 in the attachments that were provided, and there was one instance of a denial that shouldve been annotated within there. That had to do with an unrestricted report where the command was reviewing an investigation regarding the big on misconduct at the time that was not related to the Sexual Assault. The victim was being processed, separate from the coast guard, and the alleged perpetrator was a civilian who lived in michigan and the victim was receiving support services in florida. Thank you. I appreciate that. You had your hand up. My question is kind of personnel related. Most of you were pretty helpful in describing your processes and procedures for processing these transfers. My question goes to, and emison everybody is flagged somebody if its an accused, who will be transferred. My question relates to how many people will have access to the information . Because while you said the commander would be notified that they are getting someone who is the result of an expert at transfer and theyve been accused of Sexual Assault, my experience is there may be of the people who have access to that information in unit. This goes to how we maintain confidentiality, what kind of internal controls and processes we have in place to assure that happens. So maybe, to clarify, we dont flag personal records of subjects of Sexual Assault investigations. However neither the victim or the accuser. Is nobodys record is flagged. So if a Sexual Assault, if the Service Member is accused of a Sexual Assault, and investigation is ongoing. That command is responsible for ensuring that our personal commit is aware of it, if that particular sailor happens to be up for order at the time, either that they have orders in hand that they would transferring at some point in a future or the Personnel Committee is working orders because its there normal rotation date. It would be the command that context personal command to say put that personnel on hold while we take of that issue and figure out what the outcome of that is going to be. I just wanted to clarify, at no time in the personal system is a record flagged for a subject or victim ever. I dont know if that answers your question about how our process works. For you, i dont know about the rest of them. For the air force i had said i would get back to the committee, i wasnt sure exactly what the gaining command receipts in terms of information about the alleged offender. But my office works very closely with the air force Personnel Center, and i can tell you that the director of the air force Personnel Center and one other person has access to information. So they keep this very close old and very restricted to no more than two people. For the coast guard, the files are not flagged for the victim or the alleged perpetrator. When you look in our personal system, which is pcs has control over, it only shows up as a pcs transfer within the system. There will be a date in unit change and that will be it. And a sponsor confidentiality of the case, that is being briefed with the saprocit to the senior command Officials Say talk about your ceo of the unit have that knowledge. For the army, the victim ao is not flagged because far as what the file looks like for the subject i would have to get in touch with hrc and get more details for you. Im not aware of that. The marines, the victims are never flagged. I will need to go back and get into the details as far as who has access to those records it i believe there is command to , an commander review in order, i will need to go back and get clarification as to who has access to those records. If i could follow up on that. Does that mean for all of you that it for example, so it is e subject of a credible Sexual Assault allegation, theres nothing done, for example, with security clearance . In the navy thats a different issue altogether. Wouldnt that the fact where they would be assigned . Well, youre talking about as they are a subject of an Ongoing Investigation . So in navy it would be a typical for a subject to be moved anyway other than within the same chain of command as i mention before from a squadron to a wing level. That doesnt mean they would necessarily have their clearance suspended or they would be down armored if they carry a weapon. Postings up to demand from operational perspective, outside the personal realm. If the file is not flagged, how is all of this Information Exchange and how are these things accomplished . The individual is in the unit that they were in when the accusation was made at and comd office of the unit same command. Just to clarify. There is a process by which most of the military criminal investigative organizations formally notify a command that an individual is under investigation. That commander is responsible for making determination as to special program access, and anything else thats going on personnel or reliable to program, all that kind of stuff. Thats different from a flagging a record. For the alleged victim do we have any knowledge or data on the possible abuse of this transfer program when it asked for expert at transfer, basically just to get an assignment . We talked so much about its up to the commander to make these decisions and for each branch of service, do you know what type of training you provide to the command to assist them in making these decisions . So the data, with regard to making a false allegation to get an expedited transfer, i dont have any direct or permission. But i can tell you is the rates of cases that are determined to be unfounded are no different. Really maybe a percentage point or two, then between cases that receive an expedited transfer than cases that dont receive an expert at transfer. That is some of the data i will be bringing with this back in january so youll can see that. So cases Going Forward in the system, what i do is, i dont know if remember if you awake last time when i was walking through the different charts of how cases go forward, i can do that for cases that did not receive an expedited transfer versus cases that you receive an expedited transfer. You can see for yourself the percentage of cases in of those categories of work cases go forward or dont as the rate and their larger identical almost pick within a percentage point or two. I will bring that back to you and you can look for yourself. I know you been trying to get in there for a bit. Thats okay. Did i understand you correctly in saying if the victim has asked for a particular type of transfer but a different transfer is awarded, that would be considered a denial . I think that it would be able to appeal that and go forward. I have one case, i have i think a couple of cases in here, just two, where theres two from marine corps and offered a pca instead of a pcs, in other words, across the base movement versus an installation move. And in this one from air force or the victim was placed in a Different Organization and squadron with victim approval. I do believe though if the victim doesnt, theres nothing, let me put it this way. Theres nothing in our policy that says if you didnt get the request met that you couldnt go forward and ask for an appeal on that. Do any of the branches know anything, operate differently than that . [inaudible] you mentioned friendly for the navy that its not a request for an appeal, its an automatic appeal when youre pointing out some differences. Right. The initial request of Commanding Officer was denied, the policies the victim has the ability to then submit a subsequent request for first black officer. That process is automatic and 80, automatically gets transferred up. Are you where of the reason why the navy chose to make that automatic . When we were in limiting the guides we just dont like that was the right thing to do, to ensure first of all we had flagged visitor on these decisions that would be made and also to take the onus off the victim of having to request it against. A followup about training, because ms. Reed, you said i believe you would recently included in precommand training for your officers whether giving or receiving about the expedited transfers. Is the navy doing any kind of precommand training including the expedited transportation . Yesmen. That is included into our course. When they assume command of the triad, they also get a brief from their Sexual Assault response coordinator echoes over their toolkits and some of the local policies and processes. So that training occurs at that point as well. Is that also the case been for the air force . Yes, maam. Thats also the case with the air force. Training occurs at precommand training done it every university at Maxwell Air Force base for our commanders. In addition within 30 days the Sexual Assault response coordinators must provide additional training for commanders when the report to the base upon ascension of command. And in addition to that, with any type of, when a cng is contained theres additional training that is provided to this commanders. The training includes the training includes expanded transfer, yesmen. Sang for coast guard . I would have to get back to you on that. And the army . Yes. Sarc come with a 30 days, so the meet with their sarc and receive training. I just want to add part of the dod, and the giddy instructions, part of the precommand training standard is training on expedited transfer. And if any follow up on the training part, but each related to ms. Rangoussis, i wrote it down, its related to the training and then you have flagged in the materials we received regarding expedited victim transfers the items that commanders shall directly counsel servicemembers about. There are four things in small letters. The first one is reasonably foreseeable career impact. Im just curious how commanders are trained on these pieces in order to directly counsel servicemembers particularly in light of the fact were not sure we have data on current impact. I can tell you that i cannot speak specifically to how it is done because to set the standard to the dod level. The intent behind we. Part of the policy was victims were in a particular school held out was affected and as victims are going through a crisis moment and they want to leave the area it is up to the commander to explain to them that there may be a slot in that particular school will be available for some time. There is also victims in a very narrow area, intelligent roles and things like that and there are only so many positions and if you are pcs and out of cycle those positions are more difficult to get at. Again, if you have a military spouse, getting two spouses together in the same location as they are required to the area is difficult. I think that was the intent behind the policy. Someone going through a crisis moment and they are talking to their Victim Advocate and going through the things they need and that someone can sit them down and say i know you want to transfer and that you are going to this but these are the potential impacts to your career. Some victims also have particular duty stations where they get a bonus for accepting that job and any kind of of that bonus if they now decide and that was the intent behind it. In terms of specific training we only have a general training requirement. I think its time for one last question. Let me just be in the training. You get the command training and assumption of command training but what no one has said is the extent, the scope, the length of that training. What is the quantity and quality of the training. I am asking because the former judge advocate for myself i would do training for new commanders and i was given all of 30 minutes and never saw them again. You can see where the conundrum comes out of curiosity comes from. So, you are right. There is an awful lot of training particularly pre command they pack it in pretty tightly so there is a Sexual Assault prevention module and part of that training is the expedited policy among the many things we expect our Commanding Officers to have their is the in a brief and i will tell you that a key component of that in brief is for the Sexual Assault coordinator to begin establishing that personal relationship with Commanding Officers because they are the expert and resource. Sexual assault event in a unit is pretty unique. There will be commands and never experience one in the tenure of the Commanding Officer in larger commands may have several but we do not expect them to be offthecuff experts but we do expect them to know procedures to take immediately obviously to support the victim and to report the no kate notifications and the investigation into reach out to the resources or the Victim Advocate. Those are the experts that come in and advise him of what their responsibilities are and how to best execute them. That is probably more than you wanted but the reality is you are right. There is a lot of information and sometimes it needs to be just in time they know where to get it and that may be sufficient for their needs at that point. To summarize or paraphrase what you said, the gist of the training is these are issues we might face in these are where we go to resource and staff that issue and it sounds like yes but part of it will be an immediate understanding of what your responsibility is to a reporting victim and thats what we expect them to walk away with and have acknowledged. I would concur with that. We conducted our pre command or commanders course cornerstone for the marine corps and it provided a threehour window in which to provide training and it was shot down to an hour and a half and just this most recent event but they were afforded another opportunity to come back on monday so they will recognize that the hour and a half wasnt covering. With respect to a commander needing training on how to address a marines career progression is outside of a staffer, commanders will to be aware of who the marines are and to facilitate them and to progress in their career. That is outside of the staffers window and it if they are commander and its included in the policy as a reminder that this is something you should take into consideration when you sit down with your victim, with your marine who has requested a transfer. Our sarc are well versed and it is building that resource of brief to build that rapport and to talk on with tha lock on witt resource you have Immediate Response and then you know who your circle of support are to know that the services are continuing and relative. For the air force, yes, we are challenged with time, as well. We have invested in hiring gillam design experts to figure out strategies that take Adult Learning and put it into a small window of time to make sure that our commanders can walk away for them to get started. We always have opportunity for that just in Time Training from the sarc. We do use application based scenarios for command training so that they can have examples of what their roles and responsibility should be. In addition we provide information ahead of time so they walk out with packets and flowcharts and reference materials that they can refer to at a later time. We are using these curriculums and experts to help us to get at the core information and training that they need and that is the continued improvement that work we are doing with training aspect for sarc staff in general and for our commanders. Relative to commanders being trained unclear, i will say and if i can be subjective, i am most proud of the air force for the professional development and commanders have access to chief unlisted managers who are wellversed at making sure that our [inaudible] are on past professional development so commanders can reach out to the chief unlisted manager for assistance there whether special duty or [inaudible] on the opposite side. We have functional managers and we talk about immigration who have functional career managers at the unit level, at the major command level, at the headquarter level and so that commander has resources to assist him or her in building that career path and helping to communicate the impact on their career. The air force does a good job with that. For the coast guard, i cant speak for the individual training but i dont have knowledge about but the coast guard has a very active training regimen for all christies to educate on this and as far as the commanders and the pse provides a Central Point for commanders to go to ask questions and my role is to answer those questions and are not sure how the policy is working we have a very forward leaning message going into the field and saint were here to answer your questions and we want to be your call center, so to speak, to call us and try to work through these challenging issues. I would say for the army, i cant speak to the exact details of the scope, length and the training of they receive on expedited transfers but we do have a dedicated Sharp Academy who is Curriculum Developers Like Air Force mentioned and they do work on all the training and Adult Learning and in addition, they been working on initiatives that are commander specific. I do not have the details on all the different types of programs they use for commanders that they have been designing commander specific curriculums to help them with how they handle this. I also want to echo that the 30 day meeting that the commander has with the sarc is different and in the army to build that rapport, as well. I want to thank everyone for coming. Thank you so much for your time, your expertise and in answering youour questions. We have a ten minute recess. [background noises]