Morning. I am jane harman, happy to welcome a lot of experts and smart people and also to give a shout out to the swiss ambassador, a dear friend of ours and interested in history, among other things and i note that we are having swiss day on november 9th. A tradition we have long observed. This event is for our friend bruce bruce hoffman, the very first expert on modern terrorism period. He may have been the very first expert on modern terrorism. He surely was a valuable resource to me when he headed rands office in washington and i was a member of the United States congress. With his bushy beard, at the time, i thought he might be a terrorist and i thought his job at rand might just be cover. Bruce tried to help me create a commission to make recommendations to congress on how to intervene before an individual who is radicalized, having radical views is protected by the First Amendment but how to intervene before a person with radical views turns to violence. Violence is a crime. The bill which was carefully constructed to create a multidisciplinary commission, past the house overwhelmingly twice. It then went to the senate where a prominent member of the Senate Introduced it and all of a sudden out of nowhere a prominent Civil Liberties group which helped us draft the bill decided it was a dangerous bill and blue it up. The loser, i think was congress, and the resources that could have been marshaled to help us get further ahead on this tough problem. Todays book event is important because we get to hear bruces Current Assessment of the threat environment. Everyone knows how much it has changed and as smart as he is, i cant leave this out, he is one of our global fellows. You affiliate with wealth and you get smaller. The third edition of his book inside terrorism, which is available for purchase outside, will surely be used as a textbook in classrooms around the country. It now includes the creation and rise of isis and the origins of terror from the 19th century. It specifically explores the demographics of terrorists and the reasons behind the continued tactic of suicide terrorism. Finally it examines the rise of violent antigovernment militants, neonazis and white supremacists. Not all terrorists are muslim and not all terrorists are like all other terrorist. Bruce is joined by Senior Vice President robert litwak, who is no slouch himself in the terrorism business. He has written numerous books, he was critical of the term rogue state. One of his books has rogue state in the title. He is quoted everywhere in the north korea crisis. To paraphrase woody allen i often say rob is in the 35th minute of his 15 minutes. Please welcome is this just a conversation or is bruce going to talk first . In the twitter world, tweeting is not endorsement of the term. We will explain that in more depth. Please welcome our Senior Vice President who is engaging a conversation with very smart global scholar, bruce hoffman. Thank you, jane. [applause] welcome to those here today and watching on cspan. This is an ongoing book in the series. We heard from jane harman, we mark the publication of the latest edition of inside terrorism. It is the leading work in the field. Bruce is a professor at georgetown university, director of the center for security, Security Studies program. He served, in the Washington Office and served as commissioner of the independent commission establishing my congress group, the post9 11 response to terrorism and radicalization, part of the world center, it is anonymous soldiers struggle for israel, 19171947 so welcome back, global fellow, bruce hoffman. Lets start with today we mark the publication of a third edition of inside terrorism. What in terrorism changed since the second edition . How we as a country change in terms of counterterrorism strategy and tactics. Let me thank you for hosting this event, nice remarks, among the most productive years of my life. I couldnt have written my last book without it but an amazing environment that does better, objective type of research and analysis so much, associated as happened so long. I started writing inside terrorism in 1996 which was an awful long time ago, never expected it would be in principle, a need, one of the reasons for that, what i always tried to do is step back and give perspective, the book was published in 1998 right after the september 11, 2001, attack, tremendous pressure to bring a new addition and i thought it was too susan. The second edition in 2006 reflected prolonged engagement in iraq and afghanistan, some levels continued today and the rise of suicide terrorism and the emergence of the internet as a tool for recruitment even though we were not using the term radicalization. In the aftermath of the killing of Osama Bin Laden in 2011 the arab spring, tremendous pressure, you got to bring out a second edition and i thought i have to step back and see what the consequences, enormously significant. 18 months ago i sat down to the third edition, and what called out the need of the new addition was the the rise of isis, and i still think that is it. Especially the emergence of social media, immensely powerful and unexpected tool that has enabled terrorists to do things that are completely different from before. Before terrorist propaganda recruitment, the proverbial bottle with a message into the ocean and if someone grabbed a washed up assure the terrorists struck all that had a recruit. What we see in recent years, two chapters in the book, terrorism in the media, what we might call our good friend, the world expert on communication and terrorism, the ability to use social media to very specifically target and home in on an individual and animate, motivate, engage in violence and those two things more than anything else calls for a new addition. Thank you. You refer to al qaeda. Thank you. It has proven more resilient than many anticipated, we dont hear so much about our qaeda. People wonder what is the status of this organization, blue up wall street at the pentagon, people associate that with launching the war on terrorism which is ongoing, given assessment where we are now . That was an important reason, to situate al qaeda in the broader context of where it is heading and what formidable challenges remain. 40,000 new words in the new addition, the final chapter is completely new and completely different, theres new material in all the chapters but the final chapter put in context what has happened to al qaeda through the war on terrorism in the wake of Osama Bin Ladens death and most critically in response to the ongoing civil war in syria. That is part of the problem. The arab spring, eventually the events in syria, it gave a purpose, relevance, resulted in the split that created isis. That doesnt mean al qaeda went away. As i argued in the book al qaeda has been playing the long game compared to isiss much more shortterm, promiscuous attempt to burst onto the scene, to elbow itself into the limelight. It is rapidly fading. Al qaeda, on the other hand, i argue, has sat back, bided its time, observed as isis continues to preoccupy the world, consume all the option in counterterrorism, further weaken and enervate us, undermine confidence in elected political leadership, create fissures in western society, push societies to embrace increasingly illiberal solutions to security problems, that is exactly the kind of narrative al qaeda seeks to exploit. To the point that behind the scenes it doesnt get as much attention, al qaeda is the largest single i will use the term Militia Group because of the hodgepodge of various organizations and entities in the syria. The largest single rebel, largest terrorist group in syria today with 20,000 men. The Liberation Committee controls the entire province, our stride turkey. In the last three years al qaeda has created a new branch. Al qaeda is attempting to marshal its resources to carry on the struggle Osama Bin Laden declared 20 years ago and remains a threat in the sense that even five years ago we faced one adversary. Now we face two adversaries and each have multiplied in terms of their branches or franchises which creates enormous challenges. Many americans had no idea there were military forces deployed. Also in the news is isis which is lost territorial control over mosul, thousands of fighters, close to 90 of the territory once held has now fallen back into iraqi or government control or out of the hands of isis. You talk about al qaeda. For the layperson there seems to be a dichotomy and focus between al qaeda and isis. We had job warwick here on the rise of isis and one thing, you alluded to how isis emerged out of al qaeda. The fisher from the nonexpert perspective seems to be should the group seek to gain control over and hold territory . Or should it focus on kind of Regional Movement that seeks to strike the United States and make that a priority . Can you clarify, seems to be both at the same time. I cant resist asking, because al qaeda was so linked to the charismatic personality of bin laden who was taken out in 2011. But what about Ayman Alzawahiri, the number 2 . I am surprised with all the National Technical means and new capabilities like drones that he is still with us. The interesting thing about isis, it is not different from al qaeda, the ideology is the same. Isis portrays itself as the true exemplar, the most faithful air to bin laden. That is part of the rivalry between abu bakr albaghdadi, the leader of isis and Ayman Alzawahiri, the current leader of al qaeda. I would say isis is the is and al qaeda the ego. Isis is unrestrained. Far more violent at least in the horrific displays one might call ultraviolence. Not surprisingly it overstepped its market. It has no constraints. Al qaeda is the more mature of the siblings with a longer view. It is not spending everything they are in but putting it in the bank for the long term but the problem is even thoughs isis are burned bright and is fading it is here to stay for several reasons. First you dont change the nature of terrorism that isis has done in a short time. Not just the use of social media but the fact that isis was able to deliver what bin laden only promised, created this supernational caliphate, the islamic state. Exacting revenge is an important motivation. You could argue revenge and retaliation is more a visceral emotion and better rallying cry. We see isis pivoting from come help us build a state which is the old recruiting slogan, so retaliate and avenge the loss of the state, isis is also the cutting edge of terrorism. The learning curve is adapting new technology. And pioneered use of drones on the battlefield. Wait until we see that technology in urban areas and the reason isis is here to stay not as a state but a terrorist group is in its dna. It was a terrorist group and began, it is not going to give up. They see themselves much like al qaeda, they are not going to give up. Part and parcel of that, this speaks to the similarity between 2 groups. They differ in tone and style more than substance and ideology but isis to ensure survival took a lead from al qaedas playbook, creating a series of what it calls branches. The way al qaeda a decade ago created franchises in west africa, east africa, south asia, east asia to ensure its survival. Isis has done the same. Isiss staying power and longevity is a Study Released 14 or 15 months ago by the National Counterterrorism center. They reported when Coalition Operations against isis began in september 2014 isis had 7 branches throughout the world. That doubled by 2015. The report was issued, isis had branches throughout the world. That ensures that on some level, isis was able to sustain itself. The one thing isis has done very successfully, much better than al qaeda, even before the november 2015 terrorist attacks, the conventional wisdom in the beltway was that isis was incapable of operating outside iraq and didnt have interest in doing so and we were stunned by this horrific attack but terrorism is not serendipitous or spontaneous. It is premeditated purposeful and the best terrorist groups are those that are strategically mind and in that sense even two years before the paris attacks isis created a robust external operation that still exists and is poised, maybe not to do the paris type of attacks on a regular basis, but to do so methodically enough that it provides a sharp shock to the system that isis is able to become relevant, threatening and prolong its existence. Any guess where Ayman Alzawahiri is right now . Like bin laden, somewhere in the netherlands between afghanistan and pakistan . If you had to bet your overdraft . Before bin laden, in urban areas, concealed himself. I think Ayman Alzawahiri, we know for a fact that bin laden was not conventional in the beltway, living in a cave somewhere isolated from his followers. He was on top of al qaedas operations. I would say Ayman Alzawahiri is too but has taken extensive security precautions, not made the same mistakes. If you read many of the accounts, manhunt, the book by cathy scott clark, the exile, how bin laden existed, he took precautions but they were not extensive enough. So Ayman Alzawahiri is a longterm person, enormously consequential for al qaedas future and the possibility of a reamalgamation of isis. Ayman alzawahiri is cultivating bin laden as his successor, and capable of bridging the divide between both groups in the future, not to give away the end, that is where it ends talking about the possibility of reunification or some sort of strategic cooperation. You referred to the paris attacks, there have been attacks in britain, and follow it on the expiration day to day level. There are two versions of this, people who are so radicalized by the internet and Autonomous Agents inspired the alternative explanation that in some instances explicit links between external patrons, can you put this relationship between people inside countries, the boston bombing, london, how do you address this divide and where do you come down . We have it both ways, and load actors, a semi truck on the promenade, the person a year ago in berlin, drove a truck into a christmas market, and very good at creating an infrastructure, terrorists attacks, deploy the lone wolf to overwhelm to completely distract Security Services and recently the director general of mi 5, active investigation, with 20,000 on the back burner. You have an Intelligence Service at the end of the cold war, to track that many people. That is part of the deliberate strategy to overwhelm security and Intelligence Services, Police Forces with the, quote, low hanging fruit, people who havent been trained at septem 2014 in isis, and to the caliphate, carry out attacks on their behalf, and interesting thing too. The same in december of 2001, as he is fleeing Operation Enduring freedom, the treatise published in december 2001 in arabic language london newspaper, said the same thing, talked about lone wolf. If you can come fight with us in south asia, use a car, it was on paper, in a newspaper. No one saw the differences in september 2014, using the array of social media to tap into this vast reservoir of maladjusted, semi adjusted individuals that were susceptible to that clarion call in a very successful. At the same time isiss strategy was to build the external Operations Network operating in a more organized fashion with financing and communication and carrying out more consequential attacks in the sense they are coordinating simultaneous is attacks as opposed to one off. They are throwing everything at the authorities. A decade and a half since the war on terrorism started, not the same results accountable a counterterrorism and a profound sense of exhaustion. How long can the struggle go on to isis is attempting to exploit while al qaeda stand in the wings, biding its time. That is a really complex and often subtle process, excellent analysis and you allude to one change since 1996 first edition, the growth of the internet and ability for there to be cyberstated the difference between the 2001 statement in the newspaper now reaching all the people in the world wide web. My last question before we turn it over to the audience, october 2017, 16 years ago, i remember the be 2 missions in afghanistan launched the iraqi Operation Enduring freedom and we are now in the year 16 of a war in afghanistan, deployment against isis, iraq and syria. Al qaeda is resilient. The war on terrorism is very resilient kind of phenomena and. What accounts for our inability to end it beyond the obvious the terrorism is a tactic, and objective in and of itself. Tell us about the durability of this war and something current millennials have to take into account this is the new normal for them as they grow into adulthood . That is exactly what it is, the new normal. That how we conceptualize terrorism throughout our 50 year struggle with modern terrorism commenced in the late 1960s. It has become a permanent fixture of International Relations and conflict simply because at least tactically successful because terrorism is filing to attract attention to themselves and their cause and to create profound anxiety, exactly the things terrorism does through history, undermine confidence in elected political leadership, create depolarization in society, pushing societies to become more illiberal. This is what they have always done but it is easy for them to do. The latest version of inside terrorism, terrorist use of the media because terrorism is filing communication. The problem we face now is we made tremendous progress in various intervals on the war on terrorism but if i were to diagnose where we have gone wrong, we declared victory. What we dont realize is we are up against adversaries who see a struggle as divinely ordained, they wont give up on some level and we have to understand if success against terrorism is feeding the organizations, it is recalibrating the environment that gives rise to terrorism making sure there is not a constant resurfacing of terrorism. One reason it is less good is the United States is the leader of the war on terrorism, swung to opposite extremes in the past decade. One perspective, a military solution to every terrorism problem to the other perspective that we can wage this by countering violent extremism, by special operations, only special operations forces. Like most things it is a mixture of the two but what is enormously important is not only the will to sustain a struggle and not engage in wishful thinking, they have the largest single group, their own forward based external operations capability, but also what we need is greater focus. We are almost falling into the terrorist trap they set for us. Terrorists never think they can defeat their opponents militarily. What they are trying to do is and mesh their opponents in a prolonged war of attrition and we stepped right into it. The focus is scattered where their branches are, we need to have a focus the limits their space systematically. That is happening with isiss territory in iraq and syria. B these groups, these controlled populations, groups like isis, al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, military capability status in excess of militaries, we have to be there and our allies have to be there to bring these groups down to engage in critical activities with grievances in the fundamental, to resurface and prolong the struggle. A number of components, jane alluded to the work on rogue states. The strategies, goes back to conversation, denying isis territory and accoutrements of the state is necessary but not sufficient thing to do. Once they have a state giving a nonstate Group Capabilities of the state allows them to do things they could not otherwise do on their own. Denying them territory and space has been an important element of that but you alluded in your answer other elements that are complement of it that we have been missing, one of which, i am looking at jane harman, a counter narrative to counteract this and i will pass the microphone to her for comment and a question if she has one and jane harman was in the Capital Building 16 years ago when aircraft number 4 was headed probably to the building she was in and a lot has happened since then. It has been a mixed bag. The way of the knife talking about militarization of the cia and how the military have gone to more intel operations in the military component of the strategy but other elements you alluded to we still seem to be in a situation where we have this hammer and everything looking like a nail and we do so at our own detriment and playing into their hands by flirting with not a. But back to the security and freedom james spoke about and with that i will turn the floor over to jane harman. Thank you both for a fascinating conversation. Bruce hoffman, you dont look as scary as you used to but your narrative is just as scary. A prehalloween event here. What rob is talking about is playing wacko more using military might against these people is not going to win this. We have to defeat their idea with a better idea. The question is how do we do that . It is very complicated and has to work on multiple planes. What i wanted to ask because it relates to this is when you started writing about them it was more of an analog being. I dont me literally but through the use of newspapers, command and control structure, topdown structure, took out some of their senior command people, they dont operate like that at all, not just al qaeda but other groups operating horizontally and using cyberspace, they use cyberspace, in the United States congress, nothing promising happened in the United States congress but the Senate Intelligence committee is week meeting with the head of Digital Companies to talk about what they might do to limit access. We have a First Amendment but to limit access for cyberspace for these groups, for example the russians have been doing this too finding ads Companies Put up which show groups of people who have like interests and go right to those people and promote bad stuff when there is hostile messages designed to get people angry or specific targeting to get people to sign up for a dangerous cause. Our Tech Companies are on this. Could you give us a little more information on what you would recommend to rob mentioned it but use pushing back in cyberspace for counter messages going out there and we government of the United States, the government of europe, some nongovernmental, hopefully more Effective Group such as those who had remorse for joining up, imams and others, maybe parents who lost kids, and other powers. I should say there is a kinetic part to this that has to be employed, taking down sanctuaries as safe havens and that was a good act for followthrough and probably when rob welcomed me 11 years ago for the second edition i made the same point i will make again, during the cold war we prioritized communications. A standalone agency, it was wellfunded, nonkinetics was widely recognized, johnson is another, wilson fellow, Radio Free Europe, not even close to that. Episodically, efforts to invigorate, did a tremendous job in the state department. It is a question of statements and the fundamental problem, then no clear metrics and congress has always been reluctant to the extent we understood how important this was during the cold war. The point is we had halfhearted anemic efforts. Exactly the point you are making is the most important one, we are turning to the private sector for solutions and i was at the quarterly, what do they call it . International coalition against daes daesch, the rate against isis, the latest generation was the state department, i was immensely impressed by everything being done in the private sector by efforts of the United States government. Very belatedly but seriously now to tap into those resources. The types of things they are coming up with is not 1sizefitsall. It is counter messaging, using cartoons and very entertaining cartoon that has a different message for adolescents. Another message for young adults and adults and that is the kind of narrowcasting, segments of ones audience that will be affected. Lots of market research, intensive resources and prolong the commitment. The next person is radicalized, these are the things that cant be measured over months or even a couple years. A couple bear fruit in the longterm. Great disciples of regeneration of the terrorist groups, terrorist ideology that we seem to be locked into right now. 15 minutes for additional questions from the floor. I ask speakers to identify themselves and ask questions. This gentleman. Thank you very much. No current affiliation. Relating to terrorist organizations, hezbollah is a very different type of organization, some other countries consider a terrorist organization, part of the lebanese government and so on. To what extent is what both of these groups, each of these groups is doing in syria, terrorism, and give some examples. The department of state list of terrorist organizations includes hezbollah so that is good enough for me. The question you raise is a very important one and syria is the exemplar of where a lot of the categorization and distinctions that were useful in the 1980s, i first started studying terrorism, much less easily put into their boxes. You have a group in hezbollahs cased, their narrative started as a terrorist group, involved into a Resistance Movement and now pools lebanon and that deploys Ground Forces that are more conventional in syria. You also had what was so stunning about isis, isis went from 0 to 120 miles an hour in a short time and that made them so threatening. They went from being a terrorist group, arguably a bunch of hugs to crossing the border from syria into iraq and seizing and bar province using maneuver warfare, military tactics and that is one of the Biggest Challenges we face today. It is no longer just terrorism. Terrorism is perpetrated by a small number of people with limited capacity for violence and not a lot of armaments but we see across erie and other places groups that have military capability in excess guerrilla, insurgent groups and semi state groups use a variety of violent means including terrorism. Terrorism is just one weapon among many that is wielded when it suits their purposes. In hezbollahs cased, 6 or 7 years ago the terrorist attack in bulgaria, International Terrorist attack and when it doesnt suit them, what i find alarming, to have this range of other capabilities beyond terrorism, that can be destabilizing. The fact that hezbollah has more than they can target his real and suicide bombers, the best exemplar of how the field or the phenomena in has changed so profoundly and mixes and matches factors we associate with established nationstates and militaries. A wonderful presentation. My question is about antiterrorist communication strategy. In the cold war the fact Radio Free Europe was largely american funded and offered quality reporting added to its credibility but one could fund a new agency filled with good antiterrorist messages but would it not be discredited in the views of many listeners if it were known as a largely american funded project . I would have said no because the values, tremendous erosion in recent years in that respect but i still think it is important to of this from a millennial or postmillennial perspective. Im old enough to remember when the internet first emerged and became a big thing in the 1990s. It was an engine for education, seems these days to be quite the opposite, a tool that embedded our enemies in state and nonstate variance so i still think in this world where there are mixed messages, confused messages there is still a place to take a stand and elucidate and do so in a serious manner and not the piecemeal manner we have done in the past. It may not work but we still havent built it yet. Question over here . Thank you. Independent analyst. In your analogy between the tortoise and the hare with al qaeda and isis and concealment, more effective concealment in an urban setting, since your last book, what is your position on al qaeda pursuing Tactical Nuclear weapons, the first launch 21stcentury urban Nuclear Terror . Conducting a mass casualty attack, there have been different terrorist groups, where they they really want to pull out something big, dramatic, it is imparting an opportunity that if they could they would but is this a priority for them . A second 9 11 attack . Absolutely no doubt, a great a question, very put in question but because of the iraq wmd affair there has been an aversion to discuss these issues in the context of terrorism before 9 11 so any number of conferences that are addressing this issue, largely academic, policy literature has been silent about this but it is enormously important for several reasons, first terrorists are the most dangerous when they have and possess safe havens. Fortunately this is taken down the safe haven it as it existed in iraq and levant. Al qaeda we know from many reports, moving back into afghanistan, the taliban and there may not have been wmd in iraq but we know that al qaeda was pursuing before 9 11 multiple Simultaneous Research antigovernment efforts that were compartmentalized and competing against one another, chemical, biological, nuclear, not even halfbaked but it was serious. For that reason i think none of the leopards changed their spots. If they could gain, a second reason why they would use them. Revenge and retaliation, we killed Osama Bin Laden, any number of fathers, uncles, cousins, Ayman Alzawahiris wife and daughter, the desire to exact revenge, the desire to reverse the progress we made in the war on terror, large for any of these groups the gained access, two data points, four years ago, we dont know if they are ongoing or not but may of 2013 completely unrelated, Turkish Police arrested a cell of al qaeda arm in syria, a dozen men were arrested, sarah nerve gas they perfected and it was toxic enough to use, a weapon that was used in the 1995 attack, that was derailed so there is a clear recent interest. Iraqi police took down two cells in baghdad of what would become isis, al qaeda and iraq. One of them was trying to develop sarah and, not even close but the other cell, stockpiling quantities of chlorine and mustard gas was not the most sophisticated chemical weapons, you would have to read about world war i to know the psychological consequences, not just physical, our horrific. I can only imagine, used as chemical weapons and the assad regime used chemical weapons, only listened the constraints, perhaps the future of these weapons being used, since we have to take seriously and very concerned about because it would be to their advantage. Your comment reflects they retain the intention to conduct these attacks and they are improving their capabilities and this points to a major theme of collaborative work they have been doing in the National Laboratory lost alamos, technologies in the provenance of states, and developments in the bio side, individuals having access, this exacerbates it and will allow them to acquire capabilities to act on their intention. Lack of Public Education on dirty bombs, the tactic would be perpetrated with greater ease than acquiring fissile material to develop a bomb or stealing a weapon, that is something we are not prepared for, which is in the more plausible realm of contingencies in the coming years. Weapons of mass disruption, people here Nuclear Material and head for the hills when the effects would be linked to that. Things we can do with Public Education, not sure how much leverage we can get given the state of technology and proliferation. This is so important. Let me elaborate on what you are saying. When i started my professional career at the rand corporation, the first project was mapping, profiling what existed in the day and what we found was the two dominant professions, terrorism during the cold war in the 1970s were teachers and medical doctors and teachers were philosophers and political scientists. Caused a lot of death and destruction but technical capabilities, technological acumen is limited. Today what we are finding is more and more terrorists are engineers and scientists. That is not surprising, the most prestigious and established faculties throughout the world and that is an excellent book that came out last year, engineered the jihadi which talks about the demographic shift where more people with technological and scientific acumen, in and of itself changed the phenomenon. Let me offer good news. Terrorists always believe their own propaganda, they live in a fantasy world. Their ambition has exceeded their grasp and capabilities but only because the Us Government and other governments are vigilant today even if it is not in the news, it is taken very seriously and the gentleman who asked the question points out it is and we cant take our i off of it constantly focus on and not discount the possibility. Terrorism by definition, they are very their lack of moderation ongoing. Creates a vulnerability or vector for us to develop a counterterrorism strategy. An hour has gone by very quickly. We have gone over the major themes of your book. Now its third edition, inside terrorism, copies of which that are available for purchase and those watching on cspan, amazon and local bookstores, we support this institution. Please join me in welcoming bruce hoffman. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] you are watching booktv on cspan2, television for serious readers. Here is our prime time line up. That all happens tonight on cspan2s booktv. Author d watkins has written two books, walking on a third. Tell us about your early life. I am from east baltimore, i grew up in a place where a lot of people think it is rough and place they would never want to visit but i have to say despite what people say this is my favorite place in the world, it is where i live, who i am connected to and try to represent. A lot of people want to get out. You dont want to be there, you should go. I am staying. We are buying properties, fixing places up, creating a culture of reading the didnt exist when i was a child, doing important work was there are a lot of young writers and artists in the city who have deep connections with their communities and creating a foundation, the most exciting place to be. It is like brooklyn, you are going through it and you have to run out. Host you havent always been that positive. Your second book, a cracked rock. Guest i came through the streets and i think a lot of young people from my generation got caught up in the crack game and i was able to make it out and the most important thing i can do and try to do now is create opportunities so other people dont have to do that. I am able to talk about things they missed in the movies and a lot of the music. When telling stories they talk about money money money and things like that but it is not the reality and i think creating books like the cook up helps people understand and make different decisions. Host what does the title refer to . Guest it is a metaphor. It is a metaphor for crack cocaine but also a metaphor for people, not being how you start but how you finish. Oprah winfrey at 21 years old, not Oprah Winfrey now. Christie jones at 21, malcolm x at 21 wasnt malcolm x we know today. It is not how you start but how you finish. We got to grow into the people we are supposed to be. It takes time, got to have patience with the young people making mistakes and the people in jail, got to have patience even with trump supporters. They dont know what they are doing but if we cant let them develop Critical Thinking skills we can elect a better president in 2020. Host last time you smoked crack what was that like . Guest never smoked crack in my life, i was a dealer, not a user. Host the last day you dealt crack, what was that like . Guest it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. Something i never enjoyed and i dont have any celebratory moments from that life. It was a dark place. I am happy i can help steer people away from those things. Language is powerful. A lot of young people who think the path they have to follow, as a professor, as a person who has written things for television and things like that, be able to say there are a lot of things you can do, not just this. Host if someone watches the wire is a pretty reallife . Guest they did an amazing job painting baltimore. Understanding the perspective of reporters and Police Officers and people in the street and how these worlds clash and collide, one of the most elevated tv shows ever. When i get my opportunity to write it Television Show in baltimore that is something that wasnt developed the way it is now. We have photographers, and the kind of tourist book on tour for the last year, people coming out in the city doing Amazing Things and we need to talk about that. I am here to introduce linda nathan who was also my mom and i am very lucky. Sulindac founded three different schools and started many different Leadership Programs across the state. So my brothers and i saw her shine. But she is an