Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On College Athlete Compensation 20240713

Were honored to have the full Committee Chairman with us this morning and i expect senator blumenthal the Ranking Member to join us momentarily. As chairman of the subcommittee with jurisdiction over amateur athletics i welcome all of you to todays hearing, it is entitled name, image, likeness of athletic compensation. The expectation or hope that we might limit ourselves to the type of conversation but have no control over my colleagues or necessarily what the witnesses will say that may take us broader in scope. I absolutely look forward to hearing from her witnesses and im appreciative of all l of thm in the university of kansas, the president of Athletic Association and the big 12 and two former student athletes. In my home state we have a rich history of College Enter College Athletics, university of kansas one in the womens soccer team one the 12to title last in my hometown of manhattan, phil snyder revolutionized College Football at Kansas State University and the legacy continued by the current coach and athletic director. Who can forget Wichita State at the ncaa basketball tournament in 2013. In addition to kansas city, it was a National Headquarters for the ncaa for 45 years before moving to indianapolis. Senator young is not here but i would remind them we welcome them back to kansas city at any time. While division i schools often come to mind in my view, we cannot lucite over the 1000 colleges and universities across three divisions including ncaa. In kansas we have division ii who one for d2 titles most recently in 2011 newman and washburn. I hope in this conversation that those schools in their athletes are not forgotten. Altogether there are nearly 500,000 student athletes to compete in 24 different sports. The ncaa restrictions tied to amateur athletics eligible the high gain National Attention and heated debate in recent years. Specifically how student athletes are restricted from profiting from their name, image or likeness to supplement the currentt scholarship t and relad benefits that they receive. These debates resulted in state legislatures taken their own action in california, the fair pay to play act was signed into law last september and will prohibit california universities and college from preventing student athletes from compensation for the use of the name, image or likeness from thirdparty. Coming into effect 2023, the law will allow student athletes in california to hirell agents d other representation following suit, legislation has been introduced in 20 other states with more expected to follow raising concerns the ability of nationwide organizations and to function within a system of differing state laws and provisions. Last may the ncaa began to take steps to address the debate from profiting from the name image and likeness by appointing a working group for modification that allow a demarcation between a professional and amateur athletic and ensure they are still align with the general mastudent body. The working group is expected to issue recommendations early this year would new world scheduled to be of amended in 2021. Understanding how state and federal laws and regulation on name, image and likeness would affect the athletic system is critical in shaping Congress Efforts on this issue. Some of thehe complicity includg thirdparty agents, current definition of amateurism and incentives made available to the College Athletes. As we will hear today College Athletes excuse me College Athletics teaches young men and women skills the serpent brought their life. But the most important aspect is they are first a student at ncaa student athletes have higher Graduation Rates than nonathlete is significant because lesshlhl than 2 to oneo become professional athletes. It is important factor to convert the harm the wellbeing of joining usat today to provide different perspectives on this issue is the commissioner of the big 12 conference, doctor mark, president of the national athlec association, university of get this, executive director of the National College Players Association and former ucla athlete and chair of the ncaa Student Athlete Advisory Committee and former new mexico track student athlete. We are also honored to be joined by former ohio State University football student athlete and u. S. Congressman representing anthony gonzalez. The congressmans background for this issue is valued by the subcommittee and i think him for his willingness to date that Opening Statement. With the conclusion of my Opening Statement i turn to blumenthal for his. Thank you so much chairman i want to express my special appreciation to you and determine wicker as well as to Ranking Member cantwell for addressing an issue that will grow in importance already as preoccupy the minds and hearts of any enter many who are in the College Athletics in the future of the great individual who participate in college in sports. We are now holding the senate first overhearing on compensating College Athletes, thanks to you for advancing a number of promising ideas which i hope we will take into account in our work. We have a highly significant opportunity to understand how we can protect College Athletes, while promoting sports, are College Athletes fuel the 14 billiondollar industry that literally makes money for countless companies and agents and almost nothing for the athlete themselves. We should ensure they receive equitable compensation for theis hard work and the value they create. Across the country College Athletes are being taken advantage ofkva by financial mol that is law the ncaa to profit on names, images and likenesses without allowing those athletes compensation in return. College athletes risk their health and safety to play these parts but in return their compensation is capped at attending their college or university. And theyre not even guaranteed to have sports related injuries covered by their schools. They can other scholarships revoked in the event of a college and career ending injury. Thishi system is deeply unfair, repugnant to the very idea that the college is still actively is found in inherently flawed as an economic matter as well as inconsistency. Only student athletes are far from compensation for others. Her able to monetize this growth in their free time student who teach musicians or mapmakers or High School Student for College Athletes receive no compensati compensation, no financial recognition at all. The hosta change has to change. We are hear from the expert and to begin this consideration. The egregious unfairness or multiple, we know well that College Coaches are paid multimillion dollar salaries outpacing the pay of many executives and almost all the teachers not their schools, many of the College Coaches ranked as the highestpaid Public Employee out of 41 out of 50 states, when universities are not turning their coaches into millionaires they put millions of dollars into new athletic facilities, in fact tens of millions of dollars upwards of 130 million. In short everyone is profiting off the same image, likeness and accomplishments of College Athletes except for the athletes themselves and during a period when the earning capacity may be at its height. Amateurism cannot be a means to monopolize College Athleticism for lucrative media deals. I hope the california fair play act will be part of her consideration amongfa other this the laws provide new opportunities for women athletes who have less professional sports options after college then men allowing them for their athletic achievements while in college. In. Look forward to reviewing ts work because we have a responsibility especially in the absence of leadership elsewhere but i hope there will be a leadership, i hope the ncaa will take advantage of what they hae to do right by hundreds of thousands of athletes across the country whose talents generate billions of dollars for the College Industry and im glad the ncaa is taken necessary steps to update the policy. I look forward to hearing from the ncaa as to new rules to compensate athletes for their names, image and likeness. Fairness is at stake. Thank you. Thank you, i look forward to working with you on this topic and we have a habit of responding to california legislation. [laughter] i think we can do it one more time. Maybe we can do it in both instances. I now recognize senator wicker, him and his staff have been instrumental and supportive of ourgn efforts. I appreciate his presence here. He is recognized. Thank you very much. Chairman moran and Ranking Member blumenthal for this important hearing, we see by the size of the crown in the attention that this hearing is receiving that we are onto something very important and timely. I dont know how i feel about this issue mr. Chairman. I dont know where its going to lead but let me say i do not disagree with anything that the chair or senator blumenthal had said during the Opening Statement. We have a situation where states are moving forward and we need to address the issue. Im as proud of my States History of Intercollegiate Athletics and senator moran pointed out in hisol Opening Statement and senator blumenthal had taken the time to do so he could appointed two great accomplishments in connecticut also. Many College Athletes come from middleclass families as i did who could scrape together the funds and pay for a College Education on their own if they had to. But for many collegiate athletes, male and female in football, basketball or some of the other sports that are not quite so popular, its a first opportunity for that family to get out of poverty, too go to college, to grab on the ladder of economic success. And certainly, the legislation in california in the legislation being proposed elsewhere recognizes that theres been a disparity that ought to be addressed. Perhaps main image and likeness is the answer. I wonder, senator blumenthal if it is the answer in all categories of intercollegiate sports and i wonder if we can come up with something as a nation with the help of the ncaa and the help of states to help us figure out the fairest way to make sure no one is left out in the athletes that do contribute to this 14 billiondollar per year economy are given their fair share to our universities. I agree with you, we could get into other issues and had another hearing just a few days ago. And we learned there is a problem with Intercollegiate Athletics developing. Im going to stay away from that today, i hope members up and down the dais will heed that we have a specific topic to talk about today, i dont know where this will lead but i think its an important step in the chair and the Ranking Member, kudos for getting us moving on that. With that i yield back. Thank you very much and thank you for your leadership on this issue in your full committee and your hearing last week. Now let me recognize anthony gonzalez, a member of the house representative of ohio with a history regarding being a studentad y athlete and we welce your statement. Thank you. Chairman worker, chairman moran, Ranking Member blumenthal and subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me too speak on this topic. The former student athlete, i know firsthand the Impact College foretells honor students, athletes and communities across the country. For me and my template for ohio state shape my life, the appreciation for the life until lessons i learned grows everyday. College athletics has a way of doing that. Many of my teammates, College Sports provided the best and only opportunity to attend college and earn a degree. That said, College Sports has now been a multibillion dollar enterprise as few can imagine when it formed in 1906. College athletics generate more than 10 billion of revenue in 2018 and student athletes are barred by capitalizing their name and likeness. This is ave regulation and colle campuses. An awardwinning full scholarship chemist can accept any financial award that may come her way but the fastest runner on the track team cannot. The reality, the majority of student athletes are facingg the same pressures of the general student body including student loan debt. Outside of the high revenue sports the majority does not receive full tuition scholarships, division iii receive no scholarship at all. It would empower these athletes to make a few extra dollars to alleviate financialla pressure. In this disparity that spurred california fair pay to play act. The law grants the rights to student athletes to compete in california. While i agree with idea principal, California Law captured to get this right. First, a statebystate approach through the collegiate athletic system is a chaos. It would undermine competition from schools from different states even if they compete in the same conference. As it stands, ucla and arizona state, both 12 members, under the California Law, students considering athletic scholarship offers have f an added incentive to pick ucla the ability to profit often name and likeness. This will onlyin get worse when the laws become the norm. Secondly, the California Law created a system that failed to understand the reality of the hypercompetitive recruiting process. Guardrails are crucial to protect the game and student athletes from overzealous boosters who may want to buy their way through schools championship. Nevertheless the California Law did one thing right. It forces discussion of an il into the National Conversation and compelled into w, universities to confront the reality had on. Over the past several months i athletes,student linseed aa and the University Human strangers including those testifying here today, despite uncertainty on the right path forward there is consensus that something must be done in federal action is needed, over 20 additional states are in the process of passing the laws, the question is not, should student at the table to process off of nil. The question before today, how can we preventn statebystate chaos and protect the athletic system that is beloved across the nation. It must prevent to capitalize on the right regardless if they participate in football or the supple team. Also athletes who want to earn a little money using their talent to pay off Student Loans or take their significant other on a date. Second, federal legislation must protect student athletes in the recruitment process and bad actors. By expanding upon existing protection in the federal law forbade actors to encourage oversight and promote transparency to universities ara aware of the contract the students are entering into. Any legislation must also guarantee the student athletes are considered students, not employees of angu institution. Using nil to create an employment framework would destroy College Sports as we know it. Import protection for student athletes would be completely eradicated. For one, the student athlete can be hired here she can be fire. From personal experience i can tell you Incoming Freshman recruits do not live up to expectations in the first few seasons, firing the students instead of investing would eliminate countless opportunities in many instances the onlyst opportunity. The reality the train has left the station on nil no longer a question of if but when and how. Congress must act to preserve the sports system we all know and love. For those reasons i began to draft federal legislation in the house to allow student athletes to profit from nil and create one standard. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses on the issue and working with my colleagues too find a bipartisan solution to the challenge before today. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you very much for your statement and we appreciate your interest and you bring up expertise both on the field and now in congress, we look forward to the bipartisan effort to get this right. Thank you. I will now call the panel of witnesses to the table. Mr. Bob, commissioner of big 12 conference, mark, the Athletic Association, doctor douglas, Chapter University of kansas, executive director of Players Association and mr. Kendall spencer, o the national collegie Athletic Association. Welcome to all of you and we will begin when he is ready. Good morning. Chairman moran, Ranking Member blumenthal, chairman wicker, distinguished members of the subcommittee on behalf of the big 12 conference and its members i thank you for holding this hearing and providing me with this opportunity to testify. I believe in the extranet opportunity are colleges, universities provide to our nation and the world, i also believe in the american model of Intercollegiate Athletics as a procrit killer activity on our campuses. I have worked in intercollegiate graphics for more than 40 years because i believe the fundamental purpose is to help 18yearold adolescents become 22yearold adult and in that process to provide an opportunity for an outstanding athletic experience at a first grade education. I left myop last position as Stanford University largely because i believe there was much that is good and right about Intercollegiate Athletics and i can be part of an effective change from the commissioners position. Over the past eight years and been afforded the opportunity to participate in such change, along with my commissioner colleagues in our members we work to provide student athletes with the full cost of attendance with room, board and books, this provided funds for trips home, entertainment and incidental Living Expenses in between 3,006,000 per student per year. We have changed rules so former participants can return to school on scholarships to complete theirha degree, we have configured legislative changes to allow unlimited meals and snacks, wesl implemented healthcare so medical expenses for injuries that linger on until after graduation or departure from school can be reimbursed. All of this plus benefits up to 6800 a year for those to qualify. With the 21st century student athlete is far superior to the scholarship and benefit package available five years ago. We have made constant progress since receiving the prerogative that come with the new autonomy structure of the ncaa, when all the recent legislative amendment were considered along with the quality of the facilities, medical services, academic support, travel opportunity in highlevel mentorship, the quality of the life of a student athlete in division i is quite high. I spent a great dealto of time working with colleagues and advocates considering what in nil pay for play environment might look like, i find myself supportive of modernization but daunted by the idea and reality. The changes advocated in many of the state legislative proposals and likely in some of the national conceptste will benefia very small percentage of the 450,000 student athletes in our country. And will render a much larger percentage for status. For decades we have funded broadbased sports programs including Title Ix Initiative on the revenue derived from a few sports, this approach is dispensable and worthy of protection because of the multitude of opportunities it creates. Student athletes in a wide array of sports work very hard in search of excellence, the labors rns intensive nor strenuous than the average football or base cabal, the participant in highprofile sports and with the benefit that accrue in sports adored by the public and coveted by the television networks. The current model of athletics funding works because it beats the objectives of offering a full array of proclus recruiter opportunities for students. There is plenty of work to be accomplished, i advocate we be thoughtful in her cooperation. The potential for harm is present in changes that some assert as a right also have the possibility to damage the collegiate model about produce patient. The envyl has and is of the world, College Sports and the participants are not employees, professional sports offer this arrangement. Conversely for more than 90 oft the colleague under College Athlete population, the four years of College Sport tot participate as a lastly will enjoy an organized highlevel competition. The sports crews willl be over n the education they earned will become rotary band and the experience w a treasure will pay dividends for many years to come. I thank you for the opportunity to testify and i refer you to my comments which go into greater depth on the issues of the hearing. Thank you for your testimony. Chairman moran, Ranking Member blumenthal, chairman wicker and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is mark, for almost ten years i had the privilege of serving a president of the ncaa, and the Organization Led by the colleges and universities of america and dedicated to the wellbeing and success of student athletes on the field, in the classroom and in life sports provides were eroding an american experience. But while Record Number of students played College Sports today in more fans and never enjoyed watching it theres also legitimate concerns being expressed about the fundamental fairness of her system. We share those concerns. We agree the student athletes should be allowed to benefit from their name, image and likenesscommonly known as nil, were in the process of identifying appropriate ways to do so. After several months of analysis by a working group of student athletes, president , commissioner, athletic directors and faculty members, and october the board of governors directed the ncaa three division to begin immediately to consider how to modify rules to permit student athletes to benefitio financialy from the use of the name, image and likeness consistent with the values of athletics. Like congress, our proces proces deliberate and they plan to make changes no later than january 2021. Unfortunately constant litigation, litigation threats and state legislative efforts to regulate aspects have complicated these efforts. Thesee actions are the product f good intention. But without proper guard rails and structure, some proposals threatened to undermine the core values of College Boards by allowing payments for nil to serve as pay for play in turn College Athletes into employees. Also as many pointed out, a patchwork of laws from various states will create a an uneven d unfair Playing Field for the schools andre athletes. We simply dont believe our schools can effectively support students in the competition if College Athletics is pulled in various direction by state legislator bree it is critical of the administration of College Sports be undertaken by the ncaa at a national level. We believe the modernization effort currently underway with respect and il will address the concern of fairness. We need to make sure College Sports operate consistent with two principles that are not always aligned. On the one hand, we want to allow student athletes to benefit from nil like all athletes. On the other hand we want to preserve the unique character and quality of College Sports that serves student athletes so well. Senators, we may need your help to achieve those goals. We have a history off making continual improvements to benefit College Athletes, the Members School award 3. 5 billion in athletic scholarships each year. And more students are in degrees rather than before. Including many financial circumstances wouldve otherwise prevented from attending college. The past decade has seen an enormous enhancement for student athletes in healthcare, nutritional programs, academic assistance, sexual violence, and covering the cost of attending school entirely. Today there are nearly a half a million ncaa athletes competing in 24 sports, three divisions and on 19000 different teams. Regardless of their sport, their gender, division, regardless if there schools big or small, rural or urban, public or private we seek to support all students and help them be successful. We know we are not perfect, we know the world is constantly changing and we want to change it accordingly. Im confident theres a path forward on this issue of nil that preserves what we love about College Sports while creating greater opportunity for students. Thats what were seeking in that what brings us here today. I look forward to your question. Thanks you. Good morning chairman i wick, chairmathank you for the opporto be heard today, im the at the university of kansas, it is a Public Research institution in the member of american universities, the proud sponsor of a robust in cia division i Athletics Program competing at the highest level of Intercollegiate Athletics. Senator moran, i would like to begin by thinking you for your outreach, not just the university of kansas and are athletes but to the big 12 conference, the ncaa and all the constituent to care deeply about the collegiate athletics. They stated in their conversations we are finding mission to to understand better likeness may impact collegian athletics, a we too are in that mode. We join you in your college on the subcommittee and the growing voice of members and representatives to seek a working solution to challenge enacting impending state legislation with name, image and likeness provisions. It is clear the consistency, fairness and equity requires a federal solution. Like all division i universities, we compete in 50 states. Really only a federal approach at level Playing Field for athletes and universities. If theres an opportunity for student athletes to earned value from their name and image and likeness we should support them and provide reasonable guard rails that will protect them in the integrity of the game while successful educationally basedst athletic programs across the country. There is no doubt this is the complicated policy matter and none has the interest the moment which is why its important for these discussions. No matter what solutions we pursue theres two principles that should foremost every step of the way. We must continue to prioritize, what is this in the best interest and welfare of our studentathletes. We must preserve and protect the collegiate athletic model. As this process moves forward, more than 98 of student athletes do not term professional after they graduate or have significant opportunity to earn income likeness. They can benefit greatly from education, resources and development they have access to as student athletes. We must be cautious not to risk what is so valuable for the 98 whiletdu addressing for those blessed to take the talent to the professional level. We must preserve access for firstgeneration students and underrepresented minorities to an education through sports. And continue to enhance gender equity in compliance with title ix. The bottom line, there are ways to allow student athletes to benefit from likeness wall maintaining the benefits of the model. Additionally these absence that we contemplate on name, image and likeness, impact every aspect of the university mission. From education and service to research. For better or worse Athletic Department at ku is linked to the entire University Model and everything weep do. For example it is important in Student Recruitment especially for one like ours that is an outofstate student enrollment. It is crucial to earn engagement to the alumni owners were the most important Academic Mission and research initiative. Athletics enhances our work to improve access for Campus Diversity by enrolling students of diverse backgrounds. As the university, one of my responsibility to support more opportunity for students while theyre enrolled at a university whether an internship, do research or studyp abroad. It most certainly today to support the new opportunity for student athleteso who have the turn to turn money with her institution to do so. Right now student athletes, parents, alumni and supporters of our universities are counting on us to do this fairly incorrectly. Forming a comprehensive National Plan rename, image and likeness a challenge will take time to implement. Together we can do it together, lets partner of the universities, congress, and oliver Key Stakeholders to create a solution in the best interest for student athletes front and center while preserving the model to benefit of oliver student athletes. Thank you. Think a mucthank you for muc. In the executive director of the association, a 501 c 3 nonprofit activities the group. First i like to think chairman worker, vermilion and blumenthal and members of the subcommittee for allowing to testify. It is a 14 billion per year commercial industry. For multibilliondollar revenue and multimillion dollar salaries for coaches, administrators and commissioners. The basketball tournament creates 1 billion per year. Under armour spain ucla 280 million to require ucla players to serve as walking billboards to advertise the apparel. Meanwhile the thirdparty compensation claiming to protect them. This double standard has been inflicting lowincome backers. It isrc a cosponsor known as a fairplay to pay act, it is assisting 14 out of 28 states that are pursuing similarto legislation. A wave bipartisan action and sweeping across the nation in response toe longstanding unjut and unfavorable that did not cause Economic Freedoms afforded to other students and americans. As part of my written testimony for today estimated enough dated white paper on the issue published on friday and ill cover the positions including my doctor. Federal legislation is not necessary for positive reform. There are reasonable for his visions that can be positive. For instance congress could prevent thirdparty to High School Recruits to attend a particular college. They can also enter colleges themselves dont coordinate thirdparty compensation. Similar to the state guard rails, they should be enacted directly through law and not through any nca, if Congress Acts they shouldve pulled the freedom to secure representation were 28 states are pursuing. They should not grant and other representation because this representation would also be expected to represent players and disputes with nca and colleges. Also as discriminatory as it only allow elite mans possible players the ability to secure agents while denying female a athletes. States are capable of setting up the standards and many have adopted the standards into law. The conferences in college should not be allowed to represent players with compensation agreement. Congress should not appoint for the Group Licensing lights which is stated in december which is what they asked the congress to do. The conferences and colleges are taken advantage of players in the area selling players rightso and refusing to give them any compensation, some guardrails can be helpful but their serious concerns about the potential for wellintentioned guardrails tofe service hammers, hammers that can cause Economic Freedom, some have proposed banning thirdparty compensation affiliated with colleges. This would mean players cannot get a deal with nike if nike sponsored the college, they could not get a deal with countless companies the contract with colleges. Of the happens to be in alumnii or donor pay the omission to a player autograph signing, they can be in violation ofpe federal law and be subject to punishment. These are precisely the opportunities that they are opening up to College Athletes. The states are realizing the proposal is prohibited or capped for the opportunity and competitive equity or problematic because competitive equity does not exist under current rules. In fact up to six years of legal scrutiny with the lawsuit, federal courts came to this exact conclusion in their rulings, with the most revenue have the largest recruiting budget, have the best coaches and build the best facilities and in turn get the best recruits, when the most games and score the riches deals allowing them to continuest dominance. Importantly if the sport was competitive equity they would boost their payment stuff out of programs and teams would share revenue equally like they do in other multibilliondollar sports lakes. College athletes should not be forced to sacrifice to Economic Freedom and rights so the colleges caney pretend the competitive equity exist while doing nothing about disparities in athleticce revenues. Finally the state legislation will have no effect on employee status because payments will be from third parties and colleges. If congress does act issued advance being pursued by the states. Thank you. Thank you for yourt, testimo. Chairman worker, chairman moran and Ranking Member blumenthal, thank you for inviting me too speak on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of men women who represent current, former and future student athletes, some of whom are sitting behind me today my name is kendall spencer, as a student athlete at the university of new mexico i Went National chippy chips, secured allamerican honors at academically and athletic and represent my country in international competition. Today my advocacy on behalf of student athletes starts with the Student Athlete Advisory Committee, in this capacity i led my group to numerous policy decisions that were set to benefit the student athlete will for the led to my employment of this due to athlete to serve on the board ofhe directors. Today im a thirdyear law student at Georgetown University Roman Technology law andrd poliy scholar focusing on privacy Election Security and the role that emerging technology plays in shaping the current digital economy. I continue to train competitively wall in law school with my eyes on the 2020 olympic team. In this testimony i will discuss the name, image and likeness through the lens of todays modern student athlete. Giving strict emphasis to the technological framework that we live in today. Many of you know, it has the right to publicity which is the result of the federal system determined by the extent of the recognition of the state level. Consequently were left with the state laws designed to regulate and il. Members of the committee, let me illustrate what this actually looks like. It looks like a 17yearold high schoole student athlete choosig between two institution not because the Educational Value but rather which state has the fewest restrictions on the financial benefit they can gain from nil. If we the Intercollegiate Athleticss we value athletics this is not something we should allow to happen so freely. Todays discussion is not for me too comment that they place in interstate commerce or the burness place on institution that conduct business out of the country but i illustratee the danger in the shadows for student athletes. In all of these conversations we must understand that the student athlete lives and the economy social media in the emerging technology platforms. A student athlete and il is inextricably tethered to technology. It makes it very complex. The social media landscape that oall athletes 11 is grossly undr regulated leaving many of the users without protection when nils misappropriated. A student athlete will have to monitor the use of his or her appropriation and ensure they are compliant with theor state w that may or may not recognize the rates. The assumption that student athletes, many of whom spent 60 hours a week on athletic activities will have the time to monitor the use of nil to protect the profit is absurd. The notion of expecting student athletes of higher their brand on top of an attorney to ensure compliance with the state laws is unreasonable. The second expectation that Community Members will be able to support student athletes at a high level without fear of violating is absurd. Members of the committee this is not just a matter of protecting the experience, its about maintaining the welfare of students who happen to bee, hap. So what is the student athlete experience, the flashcards were taken, its the textbooks we take with us on long road trips to games, the term papers that my teammates review wilmer in the hotelel rooms. Its in this moment that we see the distinction between College Sports in the professional league. This is the moment we see the value in protecting the student athlete and more importantly the welfare of all student athletes. For. Nt athlete experience more importantly, the welfare of all student athletes. Here, we recognize the role of education. Members of the committee, when it comes to protecting the welfare and the success of student athletes, its not enough to get it done. We have to get it right. And this means allowing the membership and the structure for this current innovation can fit into. In conclusion, i would implore thch of you to consider the impact this would have on the incredible value of the student experience, what it means for athletics and more importantly, the world thats within today. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Spencer. Let me start questions with doctor emmett, perhaps to set the stage of where the ncaa is and what this committee and Congress Might envision for its role, in october 2019, they voted unanimously to prevent athletes to benefit from the use of name, image andnd likeness ia manner consistent with the collegiate model. The details of the ncaa policy about not be established until generate 21. Are you able tois describe the general principle of the ncaa and members seek to preserve the tsrules for name, image and likeness compensation from third Party Student athletes . How do you foresee the internal input seeking and policy timeline colliding with the actions now taking place in state . Its been acknowledged they made known their interest in this matter, is are concerned thes ncaa calibration process would take to form to keep up with the expected rate of state legislation on this issue . Thank you for the question. I think the first part to be made, recognize the rules of the by the schools themselves coming together through a legislative process thats not but dissimilar from a congressional process. Members meet on a regular basis. Have a regular legislative cycle and they are in the midst of that cycle right now. Working groups established by the board of governors representing students and athletic directors and faculty members is meeting as we speak. They will report back in april to the board of governors. The expectation that full legislation will be drafted and crafted and passed to come into effect januaryegeg 2021. National convention of that year. Throughout that process, theyve been working to try to window down the general ideas around what is and is not permissible, what could or could not be consistent and thats a work in progress and will know a lot more aboutut that as they bring out their findings in april. Does the i ncaa have other powers from opportunities to deal with this outside that deliberation process thats going to take the period of time you just outlined . Let me suggest you a member of congress complaining about the process is somewhat hypocritical. Process can be accelerated should any of this three divisions decide to do so and i the president who leads the association have been working very hard to try to get the moved along as quickly as possible. Its a complex topic. The answers arent cut and dry. But i believe the members, the schools themselves are working on this as aggressively as they can under the current circumstances. There certainly is a possibility that some state legislatures could pass legislation that could go into effect over the course of this summer. Many states have been modifying their proposals to have themny slowed down on the implementation date. We are pleased to see that we hope the states will do provide the association with time to modify their rules before their state laws are triggered. In particular, address this question, i would ask the rest of you, what role of congress exist to legislate in this issue . I think there may be a role for congress. What do you each envision as a request of us . I believe at this. , our request would be some assistance on creating a time window within which we can complete our work. I serve on the task force has been working on this topic and we continue to make progress. I think we have a better vision of what the guardrails that havi been mentioned look like. We have some implementation date that are problematic for all the reasons that have been noted so i think some satisfied that will allow us opportunity to have some time to work would be altogether appropriate. As we see the future of athletics, we ask your consideration and acknowledge in allowing institutions to act in concert. Sadly, thats characterized as collusion by the plaintiffs barr but we feel like institutions acting together is the right way to make roles, the right way to prepare the environment for student athleter and we ask that some consideration down the road would be given to us as to whether or not our organization can continue to function at the highest possible level which is what we all seek. Others want to add or subtract from these comments . I would like to reiterate that the commissioner described would be a convention which we oppose and if you look at the history or trust challenges, the challenges brought progress and improve the industry starting with 84 regions on tv money. Today, oklahoma challenges that, you can see the industry has been through consumers doing tv and their favorite teams every week. They perform other benefits that have come from that are the elimination on the fan on some medical expenses. They used to be cap on the cost of attendance about the price of school. Tuition is below that by several thousand dollars. In the results today from congress can provide the full cost of attendance. Theres her current case in another area that unlocked Educational Opportunities as well. The d. O. J. Which we helpis supt in the investigation on the one year cap on scholarships, until the 70s when they turned around because the d. O. J. Over antitrust scrutiny now contacted scholarships so again, i reiterate these issues required guardrails. They should be connected directly not to anti trust operation. They been operation operating as if they have had that. The state wouldnt be able to bring this issue to light how they had an antitrust exemption. Theres a lot of problems. Thank you. Mr. Spencer. Out ask this group to consider the current ways they are living today. The world that student athletes lifted when it was formed is thtirely different than how they interact with each other now. I would ask this group to look at the framework we assist in. More important me, all student athletes, not just the 2 that some of us might see during march madness or during the bull season. The roles of ourhe education in the experience and how in il fits into the equation more broadly. I want to begin by saying that i mean no disrespect to anyone but i think mr. Spencer has really made the critical points here. A lot of what i hear from the ncaa and coaches and College Officials invokes the fantasy of College Sports as it exists 50 years ago. When i was Supreme Court law, i played football in the era when helmets were made of leather. I think a lot of the rhetoric and images we hear about College Sports are as antiquatedre as leather helmets. That makes me angry. Because i think the present state of College Sports is exploited. As i listen to the handwringing about state creating different laws, it is coming. And the reason is, intercollegiate programs bring a total revenue of 14 billion, rivalry the National Football league 16 billion. And the ncaa b grossed 1 billi. So the states are going to fill this gap and frankly, im going to encourage them develop because it will provide an additional incentive for the ncaa to move more quickly. January 2021 is simply too late. Nancy sally is late to this game. So let me ask you, what can you do to speed and make more effective the ncaa changes and initiatives so that we simply do not wait until sometime in the distant future and we can avoid a patchwork of different laws that rightfully will create unfair Playing Fields. Four different colleges and universities as the university of kansas has pointed out correctly. First of all, i agree with c you that many of the approaches for athletics are embedded in history or sometimes even grossly inaccurate notions of what the real environment is and hes here providing the current balance on the lack of student athletes. I can assure you and the members of this subcommittee that i will do everything in my power to encourage the schools themselves in their decisionmaking process to accelerate those in the decisionmaking as quickly as they can. They are working very hard to make sure theres opportunities to consult with students themselves various levels of association across three divisions of the various programs. To make sure they actually do understand realities on the ground to make sure they dont create unintentional consequences from the roles they want to find change. I apologize for interrupting but time is limited. Would you agree the present system of compensation is unfa unfair . I certainlyai agree the place needs to be modified. Radically modified. Correct. Is everyone on the panel agreed with that . Please raise your hand if you agree. Witnesses today have agreed radical modification is in order. Let me ask you, mr. Spencer, what kinds of in il compensation do you think, as a future lawyer should be provided . Thank you. I think this is an incredibly complex issue. I think part of the problem with creating a structure around this is the definition around name, image and likeness are constantly evolving. I really appreciate you acknowledging my comment earlier aboutt how the world athletes live in today live in. I do want to highlight that a key aspect of that statement is that this is also a world that society as a whole is still trying to get a grasp on. I think we see that in this rush to create regulations around technology whereas when we look at this state laws that are trying to create a boundary, the way that i use social media and i use my likeness on the internet and the internet doesnt have these boundaries. Thats part of what makes it a little difficult. I think that something will be taken back to our student sathletes, some of them are rit behind me now. We want to look at that closer. Would you agree and i would welcome his comment as well, one of the areas that i think the public finds most dismaying is the discarding of student athletes who have injuries and cant continue playing. Is that a problem on your mind . I think the way we take care of student athletes today is continuing to grow. The University Students that im in touch with her about the way that i see athletic training rooms and Coaching Staff take care of their athletes is amazing. Its one of the reasons why i am here today. Not because of us scholarships i received but because of how enriching experience was and how it propelled me to where i am today. Under current rules, the minimum scholarship is a one year scholarship that can be renewed for any reason, including injury. Athletes across all sports, 56 suffer major injury rate 50 are chronic. Many cultures use the excuse to not renew scholarships, which is very difficult for those players, especially some of them are being forced back into play too early with serious medical conditions. And if you look at the big picture, the nature of whether or not to entrust them with the trust exemption and other things, sports dont align with the priorities to protect players. Even though health and safety. Pt its a big concern. Athletes really deserve our productions. Physically, financially and otherwise, correct . Absolutely. Think it. If i could add a comment to that , i have put together interest in this, we have come quite a ways in our student athletes from robusty research, concussion protocols to most recently, our institution we created new entity to take care of our student athletes. An entity that employs our positions, our trainers and most importantly, probably and conditioning coach. There not employed athletics and overseen by medical professionals to take that decisionmaking away, that pressure away from the coach and athletes to make sure the best interest for athletes is looked after. I dont mean to imply that athletic programs dont care about physical injury, is the best way of keeping the players on the field. So they have economic incentive and making sure the players gett back to the game just as professional sports teams do. My worry is about the lasting impacts after that student leaves and careers cut short by injuries. I think that this whole system has to be fundamentally reform reformed, farreaching fundamentally performed. The ncaa has a role to play but only if it gets into the game which right now its failing to do. Thank you, mr. Chairman. On Football Game day at Memorial Stadium in nebraska, we have over 90000 fans. It becomes the Third Largest city in the state of nebraska. We have sold out every single home game since 1962. Although we are blessed with very incredible football history, we are also a very rural state. Its built around an agricultural economy. I have questions about the impact of the and il on recruiting College Athletes particularly on the Sponsorship Opportunities for star players. It may be enhanced in the states that have those larger urban areas. Doctornh gerard, how could nil impact recruitment for schools in Rural Communities with medium markets in bus business infrastructure . Thank you for the question. As your neighbor to the south, i share entirely what your concerns are which is this has a strong possibility to create of big market, small market problem where states like mine with 3 Million People will struggle to compete in ann environment where an athlete will win the day. So we have serious concerns about that. We have concerns about what tn happens with the economic imbalances and support our nonrevenue sports. And blessed in her Athletic Departments theres taking revenues and pump it into non sports. That dynamic changes particularly during employment and landscape would change dramatically as well as olympic training system. What could an imbalance for urban versus rural based emphasis do for competition in College Sports both in revenue and in no revenue sports that doctor gerard engine . We have that in nebraska as well. We have successful football, volleyball, money back into the sports. What would happen there . I think youre asking one of the most important complex questions. Again, the support that we have within the Association Around finding a better model for nil is predicated on our ability to make sure recruitment inequities dont occur. There may well be ways of doing that but unrestricted models, he would simply wind up with those institutions in urban areas having extraordinary competitive advantage both in terms of garnering sponsorship deals, which with would use in recruiting student athletes to come to those market places. Similarly, you could see what gerard said, if there were no guardrails around this model, there could be severe disadvantages to the olympic sports in particular because the resources that flow into a big program like the Football Program and nebraska be no longer available for volleyball programs. With our volleyball program, fivetime National Champions one of the best in ncaa history, good and il have any title mind applications . Im very concerned about that and whats going to happen, which risks we are going to see. Also, how we are going to preserve integrity. Thank you for the question. If you will allow me a bit of time, i think you have less than a minute. I might not be able to do in that time but i think what i am raising as ant issue is really the heart of the matter. Si the recruiting environment is absolutely critical on this and it will have title ix implications but we will also seek student athletes that come to campus with agent managers and representatives will participate in many aspects of their life on campus. Recruit will come to campus with preexisting agent relationship and establish business matters. Coaches will be forced to recruit both the player and the family as well as the agent representative. Boosters and donors of third parties will inevitably be in the recruitment transfer decisions. Including without the knowledge of institutional representatives and with muche about happening n the internet. Non scholarship and players will receive support from boosters and donors and third parties and in fact, increase scholarship allocations beyond agreedupon numbers. The project will commence with student athletes not using institutional marks and logos but will eventually transition and the negotiations will be part of the recruitment process. It goes on and on and onn itaintiff the intersection with the recruiting environment is the absolute center of this consideration. Given the entrepreneurial nature of Coaching Staff, they will find very effective ways of having thirdparty inducements to enroll and transfer a big part of the and ill environment. Its that integrity that i worry about. We need to make sure we get this right so that every student athlete, male, female, whatever sport they will be in is going to be able to be treated fairly, be able to have a good experience for themselves, the family and for the school they attend. That is absolutely correct. Od i think it also, the extent to which institutional representatives become involved in helping with and il reintroduces title nine to the root of your question. The 13 components entitled nine certainly there on the recruitment environment. Thank you. Slightly more effective than the chairman enforcing time limits. Appreciate you, this is one of the best hearings we could have. I also noticed we pointed out all of the advantages that kansas had and he failed to mention kansas the super bowl champion kansas city chiefs. Well set that aside. We do appreciate the president putting out the relationship with kansas. Second, i told most of the witnesses here today, they were all my second choice. I was hoping for mahomes as a witness to talk about this. That was good, too. I think we can all agree whats going on right now is working. And if you want to dispute that, i would love to hear the dispute. I think we also agree that if you have states having different sets of rules, its not going to work too well, either. In fact, at0 some. To work at al. My concern is as tuition and colleges continue to go up, weber has the biggest wallet to pay these athletes could really screw things up probably. So before i get to my question are just one to say that, i want to confirm that if an athlete gets injured, potentially the scholarship could or would be taken away and on their own after that, is that true . Thank you for asking the question. Its a very important one. No, it is not true. The schools are expressly inhibited from holding scholarship from a student because of an injury. So they can make up another excused potentially . Clarify what you are asking. Theres a lot of ways to skin a cat. You could figure out ways to make their gpa go down, theres probably things in it. But the point is this. If the intent of the rule is you would not respond to this, ihe would assume that they are not allowed to take scholarship from a student. Correct. Make it quick. One here scholarship and during that year, it cannot be moved but as soon as and for that year, they can nonrenewing. Thats a problem. I think its a problem. If a kid gets hurt and hes playing football, basketball, volleyball, it is a matter. They should be taken care of. The more important point is this. Its not going to work, whats currently out there isnt going to work. We have to list this in kansas and tennessee and nebraska and west virginia, i come from montana. Montana State University. Quite frankly, its great athletics, its incredible. You have done a marvelous job and then ncaa making it what it is today. The truth is, i would hate to have to compete with alabama or duke. I dont think we got thick caough balls to do that. So the question is, how advanced within the ncaa to solve this problem . This problem students creating an economy that so good and not getting much of any reward for its. You want to tell me where you are at in conversations about solutions . Why do tell you, to be honest, you dont want us to solve this. You want us to help you solve this. The question is, where are we at has bars putting stuff on paper . Time is clicking and we cant stop the states from doing what they are doing so we have to figure it out. Is always explaining earlier, there is a timeline in t place ngth a target of having this resolved by january 2021, whether thats sufficiently aggressive or not is in large part dependent if you have anything on paper now we dont but we will by april. Are you willing to share that with other folks . The folks at this table and with us . Certainly. Mike you are willing to make it better . Absolutely. Could you very quickly, 21 seconds, 20 seconds, just tell me what impact our solution like california would have, North Carolina might have something, and texas might have something, what does that do to the system . Thank you for the question. Once again, this is the very epicenter of a challenge. The round becomes what can you offer under the state laws you have in effect . The description of the california arizona situation that was mentioned earlier is a good example. Within an individual conference but when oklahoma wants texas to recruit into my conference, if the laws are different in oklahoma they are in texas, you will find the recruiting environment and that is problematic. Im going to preface really quick. We talked about the pay and coaches, i think we will end up doing the same thing for the players if were not careful. You have schools that can pay players a lot of money and they probably should earn it. The truth is, if were not careful what we actually it might be on somebody elses back. Right now, its on all the student athletes backs. We have to make it fair for everybody moving forward. Im not going to get into rural schools because i think if we dont do it right, it further puts them behind. Education is education. I think advocates as partt of education and i hope it remains that way. A lot of t cases, if youre playing football or basketball and these biggeri schools, it is hard to get an education. So much of your time is dedicated to that sport. Thats why we are here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you foror having this important hearing on the subject of the committee. I will get into rural schools but its nine schools from seven states and home to south dakota State University and university of south dakota. Several states have schools contemplating legislation to address student athlete connotation. Our conferences today equipped to comply with a password to state laws that seek to address the issues. Thank you. I think your question applies to both urban and rural environment and the answer y is in short, no they are not. In large part, most, virtually all of them have boundaries in a some conference having states with multiple conferences, it would be incredibly dysfunctional for the reasons weve been discussing. Its also true that it brings to bear competition between rural and urban areas even within those conferences that currently exist that would be very problematic. The big 12 conference, another example is complying with several state laws. We are not. I understand the ban on athlete property, the use of names and likeness federate the nine rule, it holds anti trust laws. Offer College Athletes the full cost of attendance. How would the name, image and likeness roles here considering likely impact the ncaas antitrust exemption . Part of the conversation thats going on right now and thank you for the equally nkportant question, part of the discussion going on right now is to try and address precisely the question youre asking. The Association Schools are deeply committed to maintaining the College Model and making sure we can adhere to the values that are consistent with the Legal Precedents that exists in how College Sports has gone on for a great deal of time. Threading the needle is trying to determine how we can expandd opportunity because theres a general agreement that provides greater opportunity for students around their name, image and likeness is a very good thing. Doing that in a way that doesnt immediatelyei provoke antitrust litigations around the actions of the association, how can we make sure we can do good without the immediately being back in court is one of the greatest problems we have right now. Ill open it up to the members of the panel. Should there be a limit on the potential amount to protect students . You agree with that . I like to hear others on the panel as well. I think again the question is what can and cannot be done in current legal context. The current legal context in the litigation environment we find ourselves in makes it extraordinarily difficult to determine what boundaries can be set on those forms of compensation that might put a student athlete for what they are being compensated without turning that student into an employee of an institution. Thats part of the debate in front of us today. Others . We dont want to see caps. Caps on protect the players. It would reduce opportunity and economic. The idea of one of the issues but the current rules, under current rules in the course of ten years, 99. 3 of the top 100 football recruits chose teams in the power conferences. He the power conference has advantages what they are there to bigger schools. They continuously pool the best recruit across different sports so one of d the points i made earlier today was that two cap players and still allow booster payments to follow to these conferences to allow them to t continue to gain revenue in order to further expand on recruiting facilities, they will continue to get recruit so without addressing the other issues, especially we are not advocating it, youre just talking about reality, youre not going to change recruiting five talking players opportunities. Theyre going to get there best recruit year in and year out. I would just say my time is expired, we look forward to your working group as those activities continue, feedback from you and hopefully in a timeline that enables us to stay ahead of whats happening on the states. I look forward to hearing more from you on this subject. Thank you very much. Thank you. How to say thank you to each of you for taking the time to be here today and to work with us on this issue, i wish you well. I have a son who was a track runner and ran in college and still as an adult, is out there competing in triathlons. Kino how important the training is so we wish you well. I have to tell you, i think senator and i, kind of on the same page. Weve got athletes that are coming to your schools with youtube channels, social Media Influencers so it is different. It is very important that you all get this right. Hey are consistent transparent, you say that as your priorities but i have to tell you, i was disappointed with our meeting last week. We are looking at a time when the ncaa has failed when it comes to women in sports, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual abuse that has occurred and i think a question that must be going through a lot of minds of student athletes and their parents is how in the world are they going to be able to trust you to get this right . I have to tell you, i look at the issue around james at university of memphis. This is the situation in 2017, a star tennessee player, 11500 to help them move to memphis. This young man would go on and play for the university of memphis and in 2018, he became the head coach at memphis. 2019, he chose to play at memphis the ncaa cleared him. In november, 2019, ncaa is suspended this freshman basketball player from 12 games because of concerns overh the 11500 and i will tell you, theres been little, if any transparency between james watson in the university of memphis and your organization. In the way this went about when you arrived at your decision, i think when you talk about student academic success while being and fairness, this has been a failure for your all. The way you have handled this. We are looking at a time where student athletes are going to be trying to figure out if they are better off going straight to the pros, skipping college because of situations like James Wiseman and the lack of transparency. And a lack of consistency. In a lack of whats being sold out. Doctor gerard, i see you nodding your head, would you like to comment . I wouldd comment is probably most of you know, we are in allegations within the ncaa, i would say that is a member of the organization that makes the rules, we understand the rules, we support those roles. A situation as we dont believe the evidence supports theos allegations. Thank you. If there is a potential conflict of interest, why wasnt the University Family informed earlier in the process . First of all, i respect and appreciate the concern you expressed over this issue, no one anywhere in the system takes pleasure in sanctioning or punishing the university or especially a young man or woman around these issues through enforcement. Im not involved in the details in that particular case to answer your specific question. You are the ceo. When there is a lack of transparency or subjectiveness about the objectivity should come to your. I yield back my time. Thank you all for coming today. Its been an interesting hearing. Im going to divert a little b bit, have the senator here and i want to ask him a question. Hee recently signed a deal, playing kansas tomorrow and you can only view the game if you can have a and if you have chronic and its a source of deep concern to west virginia. I want to give you a chance to respond they are all pro teams and we want to see that victory on our tv on wednesday and we play baylor again Number One Team in the country. Could you respond to that part. I would be happy to. Ive had the opportunity to respond to this previously. We took a leap of faith with the new technology, we believee streaming and espn platform is best in class so its a voyage of exploration. Theres no doubt about that. States, the five of them that have 35 billion people and as such, we dont have the option of a when your network have some other conferences have done. So the Digital Process is the best we have available to us and frankly, its quite good. We are up to 8 million subscribers. We are part of a package with disney plus now has almost 30 million subscribers and we think its an environment where the cable university is shrinking about one and a half to two and a half a year. We are going to end up household cable, less than we do today. I was involved in the role out of the network into 12 network and i have to say number of complaints weve had have been much less than those two rollouts but the objection you raised is exactly the right one. If you dont have broadband thats capable in a rural area is difficult to get it but its available on a multitude of different platforms and for the most part, that level of broadband is available just about everywhere if you want to pursue it and prescription drug. This is a source of contention with west virginia. Aybe its a little bit before its time but its a source of irritation for us. I want to go back over title ix issue because senator fisher talked about it but it is division i sports for four years and volleyball. But one of the best athletes we have in our state is Jenny Thrasher whose on our rebuke filho rifle, she won the first gold medal last year. She has since graduated. What kind of an i owe opportunities which you have . How are you going to keep that fair . I think its a major challenge for women sports who dont generate the revenue and will have the sponsors coming in and wanting toha sponsor, even the limits possible team will have trouble even though there in certain areas. Our to register that complaint. I want to ask this question, you rre a former football player. It is a problem i see only if you look at but youve got the quarterback gets the ball all the time. Makes the passes and gets the glory, gives the touchdowns and altitude but the quarterback does what he does, he doesnt have a center who gets the ball to him. How many opportunities is the center going to have to capitalize on Something Like this in comparison to what a quarterback would have . To meet one of the beauties and mr. Spencer, you talked about this, and to clean it sports, the team aspects. The leadership and intellectual. Amaraderie, ability to overcome losses, how are you going to handle that and keep that team element . Its so critical too these team sports. That dynamic already exists in sports when you look at many of the equivalencies which are scholarship force sports. You haveow an same team a few players on full scholarships, you have some on partial scholarships and some have no scholarships who want scholarship. Then they have a big variety of salary differences, the other probe leaks but whether it be the probe leaks, you know here about rides in the locker room and that. Its everything you just said. The camaraderie would still exist, we see itd already in the partial scholarship sports. We see it in pro leagues as well. I think the opportunities for women are extraordinary. You have an olympic gold medal winner, hert can have a lot of different exposure created in their life. Fivetime swimmer, she basically left sports which had she stayed, she could have helped broke the sport because little girls were watching these swimmers and soccer players and d,other people, they are seeing these popular athletes draw more attention. We have not been given the same exposure as male sports specifically basketball and football. In terms of women sports. Thank you. I will finish my time, unfortunately. I do want to work with you with the school, with the conferences to try to figure out this issue. I think the patchwork of 38 different regulations is a nightmare for our country and we got to figure out a way to even this out and make it fair. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I appreciate you holding this hearing. You lost the headquarters a number of years ago but responding to your earlier commentary, we are grateful to have the ncaa in indianapolis. This is an important issue that comes down to a question of fairness and equity and we need to tackle it intelligently. We strike a balance here. We maintain the fundamental notion of College Sports and if at all possible, while addressing this issue of name likeness and image that a number of states have already gone out and proactively addressed in different ways. I thinknk about whos your teenager . The first one in college and they go out onto the court or field and are able to make a real impact and create value for the institution, for the conference, for the ncaa. How can wenc create opportunity for kids who bring this value to an institution to the product constellation of entities that are involved here without doing harm to the collegiate model that provides so much value to roughly a half million kids around the country . Thank you. I think the question you have raised is also central too this topic. I think this is true all the witnesses before you, the individual you are talking abo about, can be able to take advantage of the same image and likeness whether they are with them from high school or whether they developed it while in college but at the same time, do so in a way that creates sufficient guardrails that the recruiting issues that he raised and others have talked about, the involvement of the institution in providing recruiting inducements constraint and what we are seeing is the real market value of the individual but crafting that particular model is the challenge and thats why we are having that conversation. As we reflect on whats it might look like after report this out will be will be things we can actually measure . To determine whether or not we have arrived at a fair outcome . Could you elaborate on your question . How to measure success . , can craft a model that again provides some opportunity for students, i cant put a number on it but it provides opportunity for students so they can engage in activities that we will feel more like the rest oft the student body and not prohibited from participating in those activities while at the same time, providing guardrails that prevent inappropriate recruiting inducements or the conversion of the students into employees . Me i think somewhere between those parameters is where we want to be. Thats helpful. Thank you. I keep hearing their concerns about california fairplay to play. If other states enact their own versions of nal laws. Can you elaborate on your specific concerns about the California Law . Thank you for the question. I have specific concerns about the california loss. Many of the subsequent proposals share those same characteristi characteristics. Others have included amendments that render something thats akin to guardrails but my concern has always been around the recruitment environment. I believe we will essentially find ourselves in an unregulated recruitment environment because what is nil name image and likeness owned by the individual student athlete or recruit will quickly become currency and a recruiting environment and one other. Tion playoff the the same will happen in the transferring environment, there will be inducements made that sometimes institutional officials wont even know about. Thank you. Does anyone disagree . I do not. Student athletes, this is a very realistic pressure. I would just say recruiting, theres ways to solve that. The whole premise that has to be done on the federal level, it doesnt the states are just getting started. Twentyeight are already involved. Its a matter of time before they handle it. Theres going to be no breach they will turn it right back to what it looks like today because in reality, they would have neverha been there without the states pushing. H the board of governors has expressed authority to these issues. Talk about how long it would take to come up with something. The board of governors, they dont have to go through that route. California has a legal issue. They can put uniform policies in place structure around was going around in the states. Thank you. Will have another round of questions and i will yield my time. Thank you. This is a followup the discussion about how these rules might work along different sides and institutions at division one, two, three, would you envision these rules having one set of rules for all divisions or would you have different roles for each division . The way the legislation rules are put together, its a division by division basis. Its a division that has authority to pass roles within their division. The board of governors can set broadnd parameters on all three divisions. Cap the authority to set policy parameters and thats what they are trying to do now. I believe most people are comfortable today saying if these parameters are there and they are well enough to find, individual divisions can have variations within them if it suits those divisions, philosophies, thats what exists today. A differentiation between division i schools is not just financial, its also what does that school want . There could be variations in how this is applied as well depending on where the schools wanted to go. This has been suggested and mr. Spencer may be commented on this but this has been socialized with the professional sports leagues, the nfl, some discussion about perhaps removing anything that would impede an athlete from going pro right out of high school. Just allowing them to take advantage and get paid right away, has there been discussion about that . Does it make sense . If not, why would it . That something we support. They shouldnt force them to go on another level. Tats an issue between the union and sports leagues. What is an ncaa issue, if they enter the draft either does the drafting or doesnt get drafted at all, the players are not allowed to stay in the sports. Entering the draft is seeing where you can be. Why take the players out when they have not stopped foot at a pro forma contract, pro level competition . Those other concerned. Is there a way that it could be structured so athletes who have the skill level to go to that . Understand its about education but a lot of t cases, they are going up after they fulfill the requirements at the collegiate of all. Is there a way in which you can allow some of these athletes, if they have that skill set . Addressing is it would take changes within the week and the unionsy but that partially hels solve the problem we are talking about churches allowing athletes to capture value of their skills. I dont think it comes close to solving a problem. At the end of the day, these are freedoms that every player across divisions, if they want to go, if you are a College Athlete, or somebody at your old high school. Junior high or elementary scho school, you can start a small business. Some of these on freedom of peech, if youre a christian athlete, writing a blog about your experience, they would prohibit that. This highly protected speech and restricted by the rules. This is far beyond the elite athletes. This is every day athletes deserves the right for every other student in americans. I know its going to challenge for other reasons we are talking about this morning but as someone who represents a state with major universities that are part of the conferenc conferences, how you structure way that is fair and doesnt create disincentives for some of the smaller schools to attract and recruit good athletes in the programs. Im sure this will be ongoing discussion. Thank you. This has been very, very instructive and i want to thank all of you for being here, especially chairman for his leadership in bringing this together. John f. Kennedy famously said life is unfair. Life is unfair, not all of us are born with athletics that others have, the College Athlete of very limited ability and a swimmer who would have never had any access to any and il compensation but there are ways to overcome some of these challenges in a way that is fair. Doctor emmett, let me ask you in 2018, the ncaa and fermented new rules to allow basketball players to sign with agents but the rule changes did not apply to women. Isnt that unfair . I think the question of representation is a very important one. It is theti law you are talking about is an evolution that came out, mark twain addressed the issues he was addressing, a professional draft system with the opportunities that may or may not occur for student athletes so the athlete in mens basketball to have representation when they go into a draft conversation with professional sports ranks and still have opportunity to go on drafted, come back and continue to compete, that was the first time thats ever been done. Its my hope that we can have a model put in place for women in all student athletes models that approach. Its one thats been tried, its been working successfully now for your. I think the members caps on as a Pilot Project and i hope we can extend. Coming from a state that takes great pride in our Womens Basketball players, i think it is desperately unfair. I hope you will correct it. Let me askhi you, when a school gets a one year scholarship it takes the young athlete out of school because of an injury ates the end of the scholarship, if the injury prevents him or her from playing, that is unfair, isnt it . In my find, yes. The kinds of practices that seems to be where an athlete works hard and the name and image and likeness becomes of such value that the school can make money from it but the athletes get nothing is unfair. Do you agree . I believe thats precisely why we are sitting here, try to find a way to address the issue. The fact that very often athletes exceed the 20 hour limit in practice, exceeded by a lot im told in many schools, it compounds the unfairness because they work hard to gain that athletic ability. Yes. Student athletes work incredibly hard at both their athletic and academic endeavors. We strive very hard to create a e le structure of that, it creates a more appropriate balance between their academic and athletic lives. The rules were changed just this last year to do exactly that and we will continue to strive to do so. And a lot of schools, there is no provision for insurance paid by the school in other words, ethics can be covered by insurance but they have to pay for it themselves. That strikes me as unfair. The requirements for student athletes is that they have Insurance Coverage and many cases, that is that families insurance policy that is already existing. Many others, its by the schools insurance policies themselves and in all cases, there is an umbrella covered by the ncaa for catastrophic injury. As you said, many families have to cover their athletes insurance out of their own pockets. That seems unfair to me. I wanted to finish by saying that there are various different models for dealing with the issues that sender capital raised for example, the financial inducements to athletes who may not be start, new york has a bill that focuses on compensation but it allows athletes to receive 15 of revenue made from ticket sales if that works distributive evenly among the team, there would be some financial compensation even for the athletes whose names dont become marked. There are all kinds of ways to deal with complexities and i think the challenges here, although they are difficult and complex, are less so than the challenges athletes overcome every day to provide the performances on the field that they do. The mental and physical challenges doing what they do these days certainly are extraordinarily impressive and i think we match their currentle skill with what we do in this congress and on this committee and if we dont at the federal level,mm they will at the state level. Those florida and new jersey and new york bills that i mentioned are on their way to passing it. If not there, in other states. So the leadership we need in this area is very much urgent and immediate. Thank you. Thank you. Let me run through a series of questions i have and perhaps we will conclude them. First of all, you promote state decisions and pursuing the path in the state, but we were designed to talk about today is name, image and likeness. I would take from your testimony that if we were successful or the ncaa wasou successful in developing a program that rewarded compensation athletes for nil, that would be insufficient and it would then render itself toward the next step of additional compensation or other ways of compensating or today amateur athletes . My only concern with federal law is that it rose back and really, there are about 28 states legislation was very similar. Its freedom on name image and likeness while there could be additional guardrails in terms b recruiting them from authors not the artificial caps, what america looks like. Looks similar to the other leaks. If youre a free agent, hugo summer. If you are on a team, your freak without restriction. The concern is if the federal government acts, its already abused without an exemption. Theres an extreme trust cap. Weve seen what the ncaa has done. It could be positive. Let me ask thes question ast different way. If nif became the rule of the land, however it comes about congress, the ncaa and amateur athletes would compensate for their name, image and likeness, with there be other steps that the athletes would take forhe additional compensation . He said the state generally have similar legislation or pendinga new york and ticket revenue and my question is, intended to get to come up with this be sufficient to satisfy the problems you see for College Athletes today if nif was dressed appropriately . That basically is Economic Justice weve been advocating for. A lot of it is in the details because as we said, this is a multibillion dollar industry so if we talk about crimes than not. They truly got real Economic Justice, that might be a whole other conversation. It be hard to say without any details. Are not trying to prejudge anything but the things i get involved in, the argument against something is dont do it, its the camels nose in the tent and hours trying to figure out if theres something more on the horizon than is required beyond nil. I take it your testimony is nil if done appropriately provides Economic Justice that you are looking out for the players. It does. Without the details, i think we have different opinions on what that would look like but potentially. Thank you. That idea assumes that every single athlete is going to have the brand to capitalize off of nil. What we look at is the truth that nil, while it might be a solution, its a solution to a different problem. Quite frankly, when it comes to compensation, if we look at that is the broader issue, we have ta evaluate how much compensation a student athlete is actually going to be able to receive if we go through that type of model. Individuals earlier mentioned in new york situation, that 15 would probably roll out at the university or other different parties that means that money is not going to the athletic facilities. For me, as a student athlete, i want that. I really appreciated having my facilities. They got a new toy out of Georgetown University that measures your barr speed. Our track athletes to be able to know how fast i moving is incredibly beneficial. These are the kind of things we are looking out but as we move forward, we have to examine whether or not nil is not appropriate model to give student athletes adequate compensation discussed. That leads me to my second question which is, my concern is your in front of the committee that has lost members from rural state small schools, you from new mexico have an understanding of those schools, i want to make certain we take care of athlete were necessarily in the sports that generate significant revenues or profits thatf universities and as weve had these conversations, hes come back to many of my concerns to tell me to tell the committee that those disparities already exist. When i began the hearing, for the top of my priority is how you take care of places that the schools are small, the programs dont generate a lot of revenue, theres sports within those schools that are not money makers. You want to take care of women in the issues of title nine and the question was, to me is, does this, does nil solve, does it create more problems in that regard . Does it create greater disparities between the top schools and top athletes in the top programs in the top sports box is there a greater disparity that occurs because of nil orders all those problems that disparity, but im worried about comes fromm compensation already exist in this is not a relevant topic to that disparity . You hit the nail in the head. Even if some of these disparities exist, we dont create something that exaggerates those issues. The question is, this would exaggerate the issues . Absolutely. This is why its a complex discussion that involves all hands on deck. This is one of the reasons why it takes as long as it does because in order to adequately answer the question of what success looks like, you need all of the stakeholders at the table having that discussion and that something that cannot be done overnight. Hes been outlining his belief that disparities exist today and i dont have any reason to dispute that they exist, is anyone who would comment on nil and the disparities . Are they exacerbated . Are the challenges made more difficult . Does it help address the issues . I will ask my colleagues, the campus is directly, yes it would exacerbated and thats part of the conversation about how we can create a model that has some form of guardrails that can litigate some of the issues but theres little doubt that it would create greater disparitis between schools and in some cases, between the athletes themselves that it may not be a reason not to pursue it but has to be done in a thoughtful manner. You talk. About texas and oklahoma, a couple of schools we are familiar with and the difficulty within the conference of texas having different roles and oklahoma in regard to nif connotation. So those advantages and disadvantages exist today, texas to me is the place where the tv markets are so are we solving the problem or adding to a problem with name, image and likeness . If it were difficult in one place already, thank you for the question. I believe recruitment will be made infinitely more contentio contentious, there will be more disagreement among institutions as to who did what and who offered what. Was the institution or was it an outside entity . Was a outside party . Essentially, my thoughts on this are we need to modernize and theres no doubt. We need to have continued broadbased program that takes title ix into account. We are not the nil, we dont have a draft and we are not the elements. We dont have a competition for anybody else in your own country. The liberalization and modernization is something we should absolutely do but it should not be pay. Play and it should not be a proxy for it. With thatd caveat, as i said in my statement between the reality is a shadow of how you treat student athletes fairly . How do you put more money in the pockets . How do you allow them to use their name, image and likeness without entering into the choice of institutions or the choice of transfer . I would hope senator was in the room but one of the practical outcomes of this willf be when you get to be a high profile athlete at the university of south dakota, you will be recorded away to play at a higher level. If theres no penalty for transfer, it would be an open market of recruitment. The concept of an unregulated recruitment environment and unregulated transfer environment, i think its an absolute certainty in this environment. The issue of amateurs, and other words, its not an employee employer relationship. Does nil itself come up with whatever we define as appropriate guardrails, because a change in athlete from being an amateur . To an athlete being an employee of thees university . Ngis there something in nil that legally changes the relationship between team and player . If i might address that,t, i think it depends. Thould it be the case that the institutions that a university was orchestrating the nil payment for the university in the midst of the sponsorship arrangement . I believe it would be extremely difficult to differentiate that from an employee employer model. Was sufficient guardrails to ensure this is being conducted by truly independent third party, it certainly is possible that it might not but that again is one of the details andgh challenges working out this model. The notes ive made today, nil would have a consequence on recruitment inducements, what would occur in nonprofitable areas of the country or specific teams, the employer employee relationship not amateur, consequences to title ix, somewhat related to the issue of Large Schools and small schools, the recruitment that you just outlined in south dakota, i dont know about this is all encompassing. Rather than take the time at the moment, i would ask any of you to think or strengthen that list and what concerns we ought to have about nil. I think im just about done. He indicated, you indicated in your testimony about inextricably linked with theat University Model and you highlighted some things involved in that and what athletics means to your university or any university in the number of areas. I want to give you the chance to reiterate or highlight that component ofof why an amateur tm or teams on campus is important to the university. Im talking about what this eans to an athlete to get an education in our array of benefits. Why is having a sports team at a university important to the community . Thank you for the opportunity to reiterate that. Iy and recognize that the athletics at the world does not exist anywhere else in the world, its part of what makes our universities and its part of what keeps, it attracts students and keeps our alumni engaged. It creates a campus life that cannot be replicated anywhere else. N we talked about how that is today. Certainly it creates tremendous benefits for our students and the experience they have. Our Athletics Department is not the university. So we are blessed in that regard but the benefits at the university in the Midwest University where we are out of state recruitment at a National State regular basis, do not replace that. Let me ask a question whether the university would have a broader consequence or understanding. Ue so we are a successful Basketball Program at the university of kansas historically and currently. The concern has been the ability for schools to recruit athletes and other places, even though university of kansas has such a successful Basketball Program. Whats the consequence in regard to the ability for the university of kansas to compete for athletes to come play bsketball with nil . I would not disagree with my opponents, there are disparities in the system today, they do have to do with ethics with history. They have to do with successful athletes that come to the institutions. But reality is today, we all played by the same rules. And that doesnt completely eliminate that at least for recruiting and we can lose student athletes to any other conferences because we all played by the same rules and thats about student choice. Potentially going into an unregulated environment, i think profoundly limits the ability of a town of 100,000 people to compete in a media market. My last question to you, your trust remainder testimony makes clear that the ncaa represents commercial agreement, you indicate the entity, what type of entity is appropriate for that . There are organizations in california fill if the bill had passed, i wanted to make sure their own Licensing Company, out there in the middle of a big collaboration with baseball associations because is underutilized. So when i discuss these options with them, they said they would be happy to help. If these opportunities opened up for licensing, its a powerful vehicle. Somebody with video games, its one of those things where players receive an equal share of distributions, the quarterback or lineman in College Sports, its very critical. Ss there was a Group Licensing market that was recognized which include video games and tv broadcasting and advertising and merchandise and i think we agree that this school should not provide those representations, it is possible maybe there would be an employee relationship established but in those instances, if there was merchandise and outdoorsy, he could be up to the company to initiate some kind of communication with the school and Licensing Company is a hey, we wouldnt be able to do these things. The company pays the Licensing Company distribution and they pay separately the schools or whatever entity collaboration whether it be other forms of opportunity with a third party is the source of payment and our concern is a big complex of interest. They show thece colleges and the ncaa are already selling licenses in these different areas. Thats a big red flag when i mentioned the opportunity to do licensing at congressional federal law. Its my practice to give the witnesses the opportunity to say anything that they would like to have on the record. Id be glad to hear from you before we conclude. Thank you. Just a few things responding to the last comments. First and foremost, student athletes dont know the ncaa, they know it as the people we have on campus. Administrators, athletic directors, coaches and staff, theres no way youre going to be able to convince any other student athletes that organizations know more about our welfare than individuals on campus. I would much rather see them handle that type of issue. Second of all, we took about nil and potential impact it might have on employer employee relationship, when it comes to social media, thats where they are going to leverage some of that so your compensation comes from nil in the form of the content you produce. The content you produce is going to be demonstrating on the field, which is going to prove your institution. I could have a bit of a legal issue in terms of how that relationship works. Finally, we have to think about a way that our rights are executed when it comes to technology, in the way that it comes executed when it comes to publicity which is nil. We live in a framework that is easily driven. We live in an novation economy driven by social media and we have to consider that Playing Field. More important, and all of these discussions, i know we talked about the system but one of the best successes is the simple fact that student athletes were involved in each and every one of these discussions. Student Athlete Advisory Committee is present on every campus and every division across the country. Thats why its important to make sure we consider fact. In order to recognize the differences between schools that are in rural neighborhoods and morels that perhaps arent affluent areas, we have too give student athletes the chance to help craft some of these rules. Thats what we do when we come together. At the institutional conference and national level, thats what we do and thats why we make the strides that we make. Wanted to talk about the question you had aboutn exacerbating the advantages and disadvantages. Theres not much room to really exacerbate it. 99 of recruits go to the top five. Thats a reflection of the migration but 2500 recruits in football, but separated most of the top ones and up in the power five. Whether or not the power five, within the power five 30 or 40 of them get the strongest recruits. The reason why it wont be exaggerated is because there are still roster limits and scholarship scholarship limits. Bit because of any any given factors, i dont know that it would be congresss job to cement the status quo. We can see cleansing in the National Championship Football Game with alabama or much more important to weigh the rights of these players rather than any migration of recruits. Thank you. Anyone else quick. I would like to say thank you senator for your leadership for us to take on this incredibly complicated topic and just to reiterate as we look at the issue dont forget 90 percent of student athletes who get a great lunch on life not going onto professional athletics. Let me add my words of thanks as we stand to work with the rest of the committee to make sure we can move forward with this issue for opportunities for College Sports. I will be brief thank you center we agree on a number of things. First, i think we all agreed modernization. I think we agree about bride based programming and all the opportunities created work i think we all agree with fair and national competition. Indeed one out of five College Athletes is a firstgeneration College Student the College Athletic scholarshiprs program the second largest in the history of our country second only to the g. I. Bill. So what we are seeking is a safe harbor to allow us tore modernize and cling to the things we find important of College Athletics and the progress required spirit this is helpful to us in the Congress Committee to develop thoughts of how we proceed Going Forward we stand ready and willing as we try to appropriately change the status quo to get an education i appreciate what you have to say that is very useful for me and to understand what is ahead of us. With that the hearing record will remain openn for two weeks the members of the committee can submit questions. We would ask you as witnesses to the written answers as soon as possible. Just as we would hope you would do in resolving this issue just as soon as possible with that the hearing is concluded. We are adjourned with that the hearing is concluded. We are adjourned. [inaudible conversations] do you agree with the apocalyptic vision quick. I came to this hearing with those markets and athletes who are disciplined in the revenuegenerating sports. And i heard reasons they would be what it is highlighted there are those disadvantages but my conclusion at the moment it is exacerbated. The point that was made that hits home for me that we have to determine 90 percent of the athletes who may not be recruited so when we think of College Sports what we see of who goes to National Championships but there such a significant number of other athletes that with the name image and likeness i assume is pretty minimal. I wish we would have heard about a process that is quicker and more timely. The aps question was 50 set of jurisdictions and the answer is yes and of that impetus to get something l done with these kind of issues and to see the ncaa and those athletes to process that includes athlete participation reach a conclusion. That is on the immediate horizon but we will see what they are able to present how firm and concrete and solid those policies are. From now until then clicks quick. I need to have a conversation with senator blumenthal and Ranking Member cantwell. And then we need to educate ourselves to be better prepared. And then in a position to act more quickly than congress. A lot of people dont know a lot yet. T my colleagues and i certainly dont know enough to reach any conclusions what should be done but we see student athletes the one we see performing on saturday television. We recognize theet value and the importance of conversation but there are so many ramifications there is a significant amount of education to have an understanding. And with universities across the nation the consensus today of what the next set of policies should be. This is not a simplistic answer to this issue and the hearing serve that purpose. God is our shelter and strength a real and present help in our time of need. May the peace of god be with you all. Good afternoon. We have gathered together today to celebrate the life of jim lehrer and to offer comfort to