Jeffersons found of university of virginia, Thomas Jeffersons education. This is an hour. Im bradley graham, the coowner of politics and pros, along with my wife and everybody at p and p welcome, have you thank you very much for coming down to our location at the wharf. Were pleased to have alan taylor here to talk about his new book Thomas Jeffersons education. Alan is a professor, held the Thomas Jefferson chair in American History at university of virginia for the past five years and before that, he taught at university of california at davis, and at boston university. Hes also written eight previous books on topics ranging from the colonial period to the war of 1812 and beyond. Two of his works have won a Pulitzer Prize in history. In 1996 it went to his William Cooperstown, about the politician William Cooper and his son, the novelist James Fenmore cooper then in 2014, the pulitzitzer prize to his ba on slavery and war of 1812 and contradictions of society. In Thomas Jeffersons education he turns to the establishment of university of virginia. Jefferson, of course, regarded the university as one of his signature achievements and alan got interested in pursuing a book on the subject after coming across some correspondence between jefferson and an associate over their efforts to fun the new scho school. In general alans dealt with general ways the American Revolution impacted society and politics in the early years of our country. And the story of jeffersons attempts at educational reform through the founding of the university of virginia certainly fits this focus. But it also has particular relevance today in the context of current Reform Efforts and controversies over the structures, goals, and funding for education. Aas hal as alan writes, it didnt turn out as jefferson envisioned, a democratized that would have enlightened leaders and form a more eaggalitariaegalitarian, a children of wealthy families could attend. Far from embracing and reforming, these graduates were more conservative, continued to hold pro slavery reviews and went on to serve confederacy in the civil war. All in all, alan presents a compelling and instructive case of jeffersons noble intentions falling short and made the inequalities and injustices of virginias society at that time. A review in kircus says that it adds abundance on the literature on jefferson and a review in book page called it an absorbing narrative that offers crucial insights into jeffersons thinking as he pursued his vision for what he hoped would be a Better Future for his state. So, ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming alan taylor. [applaus [applause]. That was such a good introduction, i have almost nothing to add to it. [laughter] i do want to thank brad and also elizabeth and cody for their help with this event and for all of you for turning out. I just want to make clear right at the start, i do like the university of virginia, but i dont think i would have liked it in the 1820s. And it didnt get off to the kind of start that Thomas Jefferson had hoped for. So in the book that ive written, im trying to address, i think, three questions. First is, why is it that virginia, the state of virginia suddenly decides to invest in Public Education in the 18 teens, not sooner, not later, but in the 18 teens . Because this just was a complete new development for virginia, which was not known for spending on anything public until that point. Second, when it chose to invest in Public Education, why did it choose just to build a university and not say, Primary School system that would have benefitted many more people. Why did it choose a relatively Small University that was very expensive and would educate only the sons of the wealthiest families . And then third, why did it go so badly . Now, it said this is a story set in virginia, but its a story i would argue has national significance. Why . Well, one, jefferson is involved and jeffersons the most important figure, you could argue washington, but after washington, jefferson is the most influential figure in the United States in his lifetime other than washington. 1740s, until the 1820s. Second, virginia is the largest, richest, most powerful state in the union of that time. It has the largest population, it has more wealth. Just about all the president s, except for john adams, come from virginia and it has the largest congressional delegation. Virginians assume theyre going to be the leading element in the country and turns out theyre right. Now when it starts to shift in the 18 teens, they become very upset and that plays into why they establish the university of virginia when they do. Virginia is also home in 1790 to half of the enslaved people in the country lives in the one state of virginia. 40 of the population of virginia is held in slavery. It is a system then that isnt marginal to the state of virginia, but it is central to everything, central to the economy. Central to the society. Central to the culture. It affects every dimension of life in virginia, including what is possible in terms of educational reform. Now jeffersons a key person and the book is in part about the education that jefferson receives. What does he learn . What does he value . What was he like as a student . But primarily, its about what kind of education does he think young men of the next generation should receive . Now, he also pays a little bit of attention to what young women learn, but his primary focus is on young white men. The people who he expects are going to be the leaders of the next generation. And he focuses on them for a couple of reasons. One is he does want to change virginias society. There are things he doesnt like about it. He does want it to become a more Democratic Society for white men. He also does want to end slavery. But he wants to end it in a very peculiar way. His plan, and he lays it out several times, is always linked to the forced deportation of freed blacks. He can never imagine a virginia in which whites and blacks can live as equals and as neighbors. And that is the great flaw in his vision. Now, its not unique to jefferson. This is the common thinking of the relatively liberal people in virginia of that generation, is that blacks and whites cannot live together in safety in way both are free. And that is the great flaw in his thinking. But again, not unique to jefferson. Now, the first letter that we have from jefferson that survives is from june of 1760. Hes a young man, hes 17 years old. And its about education. Its about his education and hes writing to the executors of his estate, of his fathers estate, rather, who control his money, his inheritance because hes not 21 yet and hes asking them to free up funds so he can go to the one college that then existed in virginia, the college of william and mary. Its the only place you could go for Higher Education in virginia in the late colonial virginia. Y you if youre going in virginia, thats the only one. There are no virginias in the south to go to until after the revolution. He writes as long as i stay on the mountain, the mountain is what would later be monticello, but he lives at the foot of the mountain, schadwell, but its called the mountain as well. As long as i stay on the mountain the loss of one fourth of my time, its lost by company detaining me from school. His social life, hes trying to convince the executors that hell go to school, that hell party less if he goes to college. Now, it turns out he got in some hijinks once he goes to college, but in the end hes about the most studious about earn to go through the college of william and mary. In 1808 then looking back on it, 48 years later and hes writing to a grandson and writing about the grandsons education and he says that he credits education for saving him from, quote, the society of horse racers, card players and fox hunters. And that if he hadnt been saved from that company, he would, quote, become as worthless to society as they. So this goes to jeffersons mixed feelings about virginians. He thought of them as gregarious, social, not particularly intellectual, not hard working, hes talking about the free class of gentlem gentlemen, there is plenty of hard work going on in virginia, but theyre not doing it. Theyre the beneficiaries of it. Jefferson wanted to change virginia, he wanted them like himself. Hardworking, cosmopolitan, benefitting from education, he wants to change them, but this is one of the keys to jefferson, he does not want to confront them. Jefferson has a very thin skin. He doesnt like contention. He his favorite philosopher is epicurist who preached moderation, serenity, trying to just have a life with as little agitation as possible. Now, this usually isnt a good philosophy for a politician. And so jeffersons a complex guy, very able, brilliant, capable of being a very close critic of the society he lives in. A close critic of slavery, but he doesnt want contention, which means he is not going to push the changes he wants. Thats for the next generation. So in jefferson, its all important that the next generation must be prepared to do the things he wasnt able to achieve, which is this more Democratic Society and also a society that has lightened itself by getting rid of slavery, but also getting rid of black people. Its not entirely admirable what he want today pull off yet, by virginia standards of that time, hes considered a dangerous radical by many virginians who do know the range of his thinking. Now, jeffersons famous for a plan he put out in 1779, would have been Primary Schools, what we would of called high schools now, academies. Primary schools would have been for girls and boys. Academies would have been just for adolescent boys. And then the capstone, the third level. System would be a university, one university. Initially thought it would be a reformed william and mary and then he decided in the late 1780s that william and mary was hopeless and doomed and he would likely help kill it, and create a new university which would be in the piedmont and preferably you could see it from the top of monticello. And hes a very good politician. And he has some very powerful friends and theyened they end up making it happen. Key moment 18171818 when the state was a wendfall amount of money its gotten from the federal government, but its not enough for jeffersons full system, all three tiers. Another politician says, well, lets build the Primary School system first. And jefferson says, no, lets build the university first. Theres only limited amount of money, i want to spend it on the university, which would educate many fewer people. Now, this clashes with our usual thinking about jefferson as being this democratic figure and in many ways he is a democratic figure, but again, it goes to the pee cuellarties peculiarities of a man who wants modern society and the next generation to do it. He thinks the way to get there is not by uplifting the entire population, but by educating the future leaders from the elite families and theyll do it. Now, i think you can probably imagine whats going to go wrong in this scenario. Now, also, jeffersons getting to be elderly and he wants to see a payoff before he dies. And its reasonable to think that if he could build a university, one university to education approximately 200 young men, faster than you could set up a whole educational system for the state, which fewer complications and plus, jefferson liked architecture. He liked designing things. Hes not going to design a bunch of oneroom schoolhouses. Hed much rather design a neo classical campus for a university and he thinks by designing that kind of architecture, he can reengineer the kind of young men who will do the good deeds that he wants the next generation to do. But the problem is, the young men who show up at the university of virginia, they are the fox hunters and the card players and the horse racers, and they have been conditioned by the society theyve grown up in which says, if you are to be the future masters of plantations, you must be very prickly about your honor and you need to make a show of your ability to practice leisure and generosity to prove youre not one of these money grubbing yankees of the north and to prove youre not some sort of poor white that might have to actually work hard and get your hands dirty and certainly, that youre not an enslaved person. And so this class is brought together. There are no fellowships, no scholarships at the university. Its the most expensive institution of Higher Education in the 1820s in the United States. So the only people who can afford there are the people coming from these plantations. And it turns out this Educational Institution is not capable of transforming them in the ways that jefferson thought that it would and so this is a book which is about jeffersons noble intentions, noble in most ways, not in all ways, but the compulsory deportation of africanamericans is certainly the least attractive element of his scheme, but how it falls short and in part, it falls short because why jeffersons able to pitch this in the 1810s to virginiaions is. Theyre looking at census returns and finding out that virginia is not the largest state anymore, its not the richest state anymore, and theyre fearful its not going to be the most politically powerful state anymore because its slipping relative to the state of new york and the state of pennsylvania, and theyre nervous that ohio is coming up very fast, too. In other words, population and wealth in the country is shifting toward the north. And virginians decide they dont trust a union in which theyre not the most powerful state, but they persuade themselves and the reason why theyre willing to invest in part of jeffersons plan because if they can educate their young men to be the future congressmen, that theyll be able to win arguments in congress and fend off yankee influence. So jefferson has created a university in partnership with the other leaders of virginia that has two contradictory missions. Theres jeffersons preferred mission, which is reform the state from within, but theres the other mission which hes also bought into, which is to fend off yankee influence, including antislavery activists, so that when virginia will reform its institutions, it will do so on its own terms at some undetermined date in the future. Well, it turns out these young men from the plantations are much more prepared for the Second Mission to fend off the yankees and preserve in a conservative way the virginia theyve grown up in rather than to fulfill jeffersons vision to transform virginia into something else. So thats what the book is about. Thank you. Happy to take any questions that you have. [applause] if you have a question, could you please step to that microphone right to the aisle there . You have a question. I do. But you dont want to go to the microphone. I dont mind that, im trying to think of how to frame it. Because several things arose. Okay. Throughout your talk, throughout your talk i heard you say he was kind of waiting for the next generation to take over. Was that clearly stated or was that something that he kind of looked back on and said, oh, i didnt look at my generation, i was looking at the next generation . He pretty clearly says it and says in 1780s when hes 40 years old. Any idea why he didnt want to change it . He did want to change it, but he himself is thinskinned, doesnt like contention, wants serenity. He has, in the period when hes a young legislator, he wants to introduce a piece of legislation in a very small way is going to improve the conditions of enslaved people. He doesnt as a young legislator want to do this. He goes to one of the most senior and respected legislators and says will you present this . He says, okay, ill do it. Presents it and this guy gets attacked by the other legislators saying we dont talk about that kind of stuff. Okay. We Start Talking about that stuff and enslaved people will get the idea that were setting up a dynamic thats going to lead to their freedom and then they may want to rise up in rebellion to accelerate that day, so shut it completely down and jefferson writes about that and says what a searing experience it was for him to see how all of these people pounced on it. Jefferson never ever wants to take a nonpopular stand. That leads to another question i have about jefferson and then ill turn it over to others. My very shallow understanding of history, of the revolution and after the revolution was that he was quite effective in getting what he wanted and im kind of surprised to hear he was not that he was prickly, but that he was thinskinned because nigh interpretation or understanding was that he wasnt all that thinskinned and during the fight between he and, you know, between all of those post all the revolutionaries, it seemed like he was out there pushing pretty hard for what he wanted. Jefferson is a very good politician. One of the things is, he figures out what the majority, including the majority of leaders around him, want. And how he can nudge them just a bit in the direction he wants to go. But he also knows when he cant push them too far, where they will therell be major pushback. Hes also because he doesnt like contention and he says in his letters that criticism or contention is 10 times more painful than any praise is positive for him. So somebody like Alexander Hamilton thinks of jefferson as a conniving, backstabbing kind of guy who will smile in your face and meanwhile, is working behind the scenes with other people to achieve his political ends. And its natural that somebody like hamilton would see it that way because hamilton doesnt mind contention. Hes a, in your face kind of guy, and saying and bold and clear about what he wants to do and confronts other people who dont want to do it. Thats not jeffersons style. [inaudible] i dont say that in the book, but i can understand saying that. Yes. Thank you. I have two quick questions. Okay. Maybe broadly, and one what happened to the city Council Voted to scrap jeffersons birthday as a public holiday. Second, what happened to virginia . Virginia is called mother virginia, but produced one of the most, maybe next to above the ohio. The last president we had from virginia is Woodrow Wilson and since then havent produced any of the greatest one of the great nationwide politicians across the river. So the reason i asked the first question is, during the summer i took my children to visit monticello and the only attractive thing is, perhaps Thomas Jeffersons monticello and the university of virginia. And during our planning to visit the place and i asked my older kids in middle school now to search, what do you want to learn about shoveville, Thomas Jefferson and monticello and i didnt notice until my children let me know, they dont celebrate Thomas Jeffersons birthday. Whats wrong with it. I tried to figure out two quick questions broadly, but i have got zero clue to help me understand, no other expert i talked to, you live there, yo youre appreciate two questions. Two very big questions, ill take the second one first. Virginia is not the largest state in the union so its one of the its kind of a middling state now and thats why its political influence has diminished over time. But virginia is also a changing state right now in part because the suburbs around washington are the vibrant growing demographically and economically part of the state and theyre becoming much more influential than the state of virginia. The question about charlottesville, and it very much goes to the politics of the city council there, and it also goes to the racial politics of the city. Historically the Africanamerican Community has been marginalized there. Their sensitivities have not been considered by the city council. And this particular vote was, as in so many things that go on in politics these days, its about the symbols of who is considered legitimate and who is not. Okay. And those symbols are shifting all the time and contested in our country and you can think of all sorts of examples and other places other than charlottesville. [inaudible] well, okay, let me answer the question. Okay. Now the reason it was done is because there is a long tradition of africanamericans feeling like their sensitivities have been ignored in the city and this was an effort by the city council to say well, again, i think thats an extreme way of putting it, and if i can finish what im saying here is, i understand the sentiment behind it, i dont think it was the right way to go. Okay. Because again, it plays out there in the country that theyre rejecting Thomas Jefferson and everything about him. And i have found it difficult in talking about the book with people and the press today because the question everybody keeps coming back to me, from both ends of the political spectrum is, basically, is jefferson a good guy or not. Okay. Its a terrible question, i believe. And the question is, why was jefferson so important in the time he lived in . What influence did jefferson have over his time . And in what ways does that influence survive today . Now, it was earlier in the 20th century, it was like jefferson just the greatest thing ever because he declaration of independence, creator of democracy, separation of church and state, Louisiana Purchase, its a pretty winning record and people just did not talk about slavery. I mean, when i say people, i mean white people who are writing histories and journalists and so forth. It just was not part of the story. Now, we shift to the later 20th century and early 21st and then people are suddenly playing catch up, wait a minute, slaves are 40 of the people in virginia, jefferson is a slave holder and talking about all men are created equal and yet, he owns all of these people and doesnt free more than a handful of them in contrast to George Washington to freed just about all of the people that he had owned. So, whats going on here . Suddenly, and then its again, my position here is, you swing to the other extreme and say, hes just purely evil, and there are people in the city council who are just going, theyre part of that loop. And what im saying is, we ought to be able to think about jefferson in all of his complexity. We can think about the things that we can still admire, like separation of church and state, about seeking democracy, american independence, and then also, acknowledge that he could not free himself from slavery in the end. And just say, why is it that somebody could be capable of these extraordinary accomplishments and still feel that he could not do anything more to change his society other than to create a university of virginia and hope that the next generation would make the changes that he couldnt. So i would like us to think about him in this kind of complicated way, which we cant if its every question is a referendum on whether we like him or not. Well then you probably wont like my question. Okay. [laughter] having read a lot about jefferson, one thing that set him apart was obviously his intellect and all of this sort of stuff, but also his arrogance and his this desire to avoid confrontation, that led, arguably, to him kind of being a backstabbing weasel. Certainly in his relationship with washington. Because they were very, very close, as until they werent. As washington was with James Madison and then stuff that jefferson, you know, surreptitiously circulated about washington making him look like a doddering old fool and lying to his face and separates him from other people like madison who also broke with washington primarily, you know, to side with jefferson because it became, youre either with me or youre against me. And that just, ive just never understood that about the extent to which that impacted his the way he operated. Because like the famous quote from marsha washington the two most painful days of her life when george died and Thomas Jefferson came and paid a condolence call because she realized that their relationship had a completely broken down. Anyway, maybe not where you wanted to go, but well, its not a book that is really about his relationship with these other leaders of the country. So i dont go into that and i understand what youre saying, there are also times where, for example, jefferson tried to persuade washington to run for a third term. So, which is a little jarring because, again, as you pointed out, hes working behind the scenes to plant some stories in newspapers that make washington look bad. Now, what really concerned jefferson was that washington was so close with hamilton and that they were a team, a closer and closer team over time in pursuing their vision of what the country should be. But jefferson kept hoping that he could somehow disconnect hamilton and washington and he hoped that washington could just become a more passive kind of father figure and that jefferson could replace hamilton as his kind of Prime Minister in the system. And so, he doesnt want washington to cease to be president because the alternative he knows is not going to be jefferson probably, probably going to be john adams, which it was. And he thought john adams is just much more clearly committed to this federalist vision of the country and id rather have washington. So its all its very complicated, but youre right, jefferson is capable of doing things behind the scenes to his political competitors that dont look so good. But again, theres a long tradition in our politics in this country of people doing similar things. Maybe a little bit of a followup to that question and an earlier one. So you said that jefferson didnt like contention, but he was a great politician. And made and ill have a second question as well. What do you think about that illustrates how great a politician he was . The first question. The second question, just in terms of the unruliness and unseriousness, i guess, of the students at william and mary, and at uva in the 1820s, how does that contrast to the northern universities that you mentioned and what were their students like. Two very good questions. First of all, jefferson being a great politician, one, he manages to engineer an Opposition Party that comes to power and displaces a very formidable first party that essentially founded the federal institutions of the country, the federalists. Thats a tough accomplishment, he pulled it off and then he consolidated the party of his party, the socalled republicans, not the same Republican Party of lincoln or later, but the jeffersonians, he basically destroyed the federalists. So theres that accomplishment and then he achieves things like the Louisiana Purchase where he has to set aside his constitutional scruples and do something thats not in the constitution. He was a strict constructionist of the constitution al it didnt serve his purposes in which the constitution becomes more of an accordian, but its a good accomplishment for the country, saved it from a real crisis at that time. And a local level. 300,000 doesnt seem like a lot of money now, but 300,000 out of the state of virginia for education has never been done before. He played a game of chicken with legislators. They wanted him to open up when half of the buildings arent construct. He said, no, then they wont build the other half of the building. And he fulfilled that. The last building, the rotunda was not completed when they opened the doors. He pulled this off and then he gave an indiscrete interview describing how cleverly he manipulated the legislature and the guy published the story. And jefferson was livid about it and said i never did those things. Of course he did those things, he didnt want a light shone on it and a victory tour explaining how hed done all of this. He realized he had been indiscrete. The other question. The students. Oh. Okay. Unruly students everywhere, okay, but theyre the worst in the south. And in the north, the worst were the southernest, the most numerous, which was princeton. The trouble in the north is mostly over food service, which is terrible. And students end up basically having food fights and riots over this. There are other issues, but thats the number one thing. In the south, its young men trying to show that nobody can control them. And its confronting faculty members. Its stealing their horses, knocking down fences, hooting and hollering, and just showing that youre in control instead of the faculty. Its much more violent. So, i mean, this is true at the university of georgia, university of north carolina, university of South Carolina and uva and the other three were actually founded, theyre older universities. Founded 1780s and 90s, and earliest 19th century. Two questions, one completely off the wall. You pointed out that jefferson made the choice of funding the University Rather than k through 12. Never mind, in recent years, Development Economists comparing asia, the little tigers, and china, pointed out that a fact was little tigers k through 12 worried about the university at the end, latin america, the upclasses funded the university. Is there anything its a parallel story. But this was the earliest example i found. Yeah. And the other question is, its my impression that the english colleges often came here to get the kid out of their boarding houses, with no supervision and that was then a generation the colleges managed to quiet the kids down quit a bit with the faculty, masters and adults, to supervise. Apparently in the 12th century the kid went to oxford, cambridge and lived in boarding houses and there was no adult supervision, and so, town people hated the students because nobody was and what was the process by which these southern students got tamed . Okay. One a big part of the book, which i havent gone into here, is about church stablization in virginia. In the revolution, through jefferson and madisons influence, they destroy the church establishment. The colonial virginia had levied a tax on everybody to support the and aglican church, later and there are a hundred or so in virginia who are all receiving tax support and these ministers double as teaching schools. Again, theyre not truly public schools, but theyre schools where jefferson goes to one of these schools in albemarle county. When the church state establishment gets taken away and this tax is taken away, the and anglican, it shrinks and just about all the schools go elsewhere. Jefferson said primary education is worse than before the revolution in virginia. In part because of what jefferson had done, but jefferson had expected that when virginians destroyed the church state establishment they would take the tax savings and invest it in Public Education and they decided not to do that, but essentially to give tax relief to people. And jefferson regretted that. Now the request he then becomes what is it in jeffersons lifetime theres a struggle between jeffersons vision of a secular university, no chapel, no professor of theology, purely secular. Nothing like this in the world at that time. Very important to jefferson to do it that way. That starts to break down once hes dead and during his lifetime there was an element, there were people, presbyterians, and including a chapel and Church Services and prayers every day, that was a presbyterian push. That presbyterian push never fully triumphed, but its more powerful in the intersection next generation. And jefferson said at some point every one is going to be a unitarian. Thats not true. Turns out theyre much more likely to be a presbyterian in virginia, or a episcopn episcop what happens the young gentlemen evolve partly the influence of their mothers, into a more genteel slash evangelical culture which promotes a kind of selfcontrol that means theyre not just fox hunters and horse racers. Theyre also people who are going to church in the new way. And its slow, it finally starts to kick in in uva in the 1850s. So if you look at people who are uva students that are active in the confederacy, theyre pious christian gentlemen who are also committed to preserving slave ry. Yeah. I have a question which is a bit off topic, but i think it relates to our relations today in america and University Education in america and also to what youre talking about and because youre an educator. I have five sons. Ive told them all that they should study math and chinese and theyve all ignored me. Theyre all studying history . No well, actually one was studying history and they were interviewed and they said what did your dad tell you. To study math and chinese and i ignored him. And growing up we didnt have africanamerican studies on womens studies and over time im an old white guy, you may have noticed, there are a lot of things coming out that we never learned about. Im wondering, you as an educator, what do you think, should i have told my sons to study, you know, africanamerican study, womens studies . Because i wanted to make this not a racial discussion, but some of these other things. I can see it could have helped perhaps with Critical Thinking in the liberal arts education, but im still kind of like, guys, you should have studied math and chinese. Well, do think that people should study math and chinese, but also, art, literature and history. But i understand your point and this is a dilemma that were in in this country, particularly as the cost of Higher Education has gone up. We feel compelled to tell students to start specializing. And to specialize in things that will make money sooner rather than later. Entirely understandable because of the debt burdens that families and students are faced with because of the Public Investment in education has gone down. Yeah, well, you know, i feel your pain, right . And i understand your advice. I completely understand it. Im never going to dismiss somebody who gives advice to their young people who have to cope with these debt burdens or the family has to cope with it. I understand that entirely. I do wish, and what i push for is, okay, yeah, you absolutely more students should be studying math and chinese, but i still think theres a place to have a minor, say in history, literature, art or music, and that this will make them better at being Business People in the future if they have this range to their own intellect. And if they have the capacity to investigate things along several different avenues, im thinking. Yes, be a math major and study chinese, but be an english minor as well would be my design for an ideal education. So i am a uva graduate and william and mary like to claim jefferson as their alumni. And he was not a william and mary fan and with uva and destroy william and mary and endowment when you go to william and mary and have done this to talk, they have ambivalence on jefferson. On one hand they want to claim him, on the other hand, the wellinformed know he tried to do the school in. So, jefferson persuaded himself and he had some good reason. William and mary was in a bad way come 18 teens. Its enrollment it shrunk, there was major violence between the students and the community and also with the faculty. And it suffered from a setting that was very malarial. And williamsburg was a dying town after the capital moved out and moved to richmond. So the leaders of the college wanted to save it by moving it to richmond and jefferson and his allies blocked that move and used that opportunity to say, well, since theyve invited the legislature to look into their orangperations why dt we take their money away from them, and essentially be Williamsburg Academy and in the end they didnt succeed. Youve been to william and mary, it still exists, but nearly killed at the time when university of virginia was created. Exactly two, one is im curious, yes or no, do you have a description of like or maybe just like an appendix which indicates who the first few classes of students and what families they came from . Is that covered in your book . That would be fascinating. It is fascinating. Theres a guy who wrote a dissertation on the subject rather to repeat what he did. My other question, would it have been back then presumably virginia was still pretty agrarian. Yeah, very rural. Would it have been practical within any reasonable bounds of practice difficult or expense to create a primary system of education everywhere or would it right. It seems to me he made the right choice in a way, because if you buy into if you believe its going to have impact because its more bang for the buck since there is probably not going to be realistic manner in which to do a statewide primary educational system. No, its a reasonable question because virginians have especially large farms and plantations and they dont have a lot of villages. So its not like new england. You know, the population density in new england is twice what it is in virginia. There are also problem virginia and virginia included West Virginia at the time and a lot of mountains. People were more dispersed. New england was the only part of the country until that time, 18 teens that had primary education and jefferson says, well, its easy for them to do because you can walk to school. A lot of virginians, its too far to walk and a lot of virginians, couldnt afford shoes. Theres a lot of white poverty in virginia at that time. That said, people still want to have education and they had a system of what they called old field schools, which were set up and they its very hard to have comprehensive coverage, youd need a Critical Mass of parents with children in the right ages and they lived reasonably close enough that they could sustain one of these oneroom schoolhouses. Some years you had that and some you didnt. Still, if there had been more money put into this to support more teachers, more of these schools would have existed. Because eventually right after the civil war, virginia, they set up a Primary School system. So youre right, its difficult, but they could have done a lot more than they did because they decided to prioritize the University Rather than the primary education. Im trying to follow. Keep mentioning the presbyterian church, the way that students are somewhat more disciplined. We were told when i was the honor system, and contributed to that, to keep on that or its a contributor, but its know the its not the central factor, youre right in the mythic history of uva, its the honor code that saved it and the honor code is part of this bigger cultural shift. Initially, the honor code is very narrow, it just basically says you wont cheat on exams. It doesnt go out and keep you from burning tar barrels on the lawn and disrupting the faculty. So, but it is a step in the right direction and its part of this cultural shift which is influenced by evangelical christianity. So, yeah, it makes a difference, but its not the be all and end all of this change that will stabilize the university. But like any kind much popular history. You want to boil things down to a simple explanation and not have a history professor come in and tell you exactly how complicated it is when youre giving a tour to people visiting or youre trying to explain to undergraduates today why the university come down. Youve got to set a good example. I want you to talk a little about the scholarship that went into this book. Id read somewhere and mentioned in the introduction youd come across some correspondence between jefferson and an an associate. And this drew you in. So many has been written about jefferson and there is some new stuff in this book. Can you talk about that . What got me going was the correspondence between jefferson and a state senator named joseph kabel. For those of you who went to uva, theres one named for him kabel hall. And its regional. Tidewater, piedmont and western virginia. I was interested in these regional politics and how they play into the decisions and what kind of education virginia should fund. That was my starting point. This correspondence between jefferson and kabel is actually pretty wellknown, but what i tried to do in the book is bring in other characters who are not who are not attended to, i think, in the usual story. A guy named Francis Gilmer. Theres also a gilmer hall at uva. Francis gilmer is a guy who was sent over to new england to recruit most of their first faculty. He was considered by jefferson to be the most brilliant young man, essentially the only smart young man in jeffersons opinion before the university of virginia comes along and jefferson really relies on Francis Gilmer to get things done, to help create the university and he expects gilmer to be the first law professor which for jefferson is the most important faculty position at the new university. And then, i found these fascinating letters written by gilmer. It turns out gilmer didnt trust jefferson at all. Gilmer was a young ultra conservative, the purpose at the university of virginia is to defend virginias way of life period. So it turns out gilmer is really the prophet of what uva will be in the next generation rather than jefferson and gilmers letters are full of, im trying to save the university of virginia from jefferson. So gilmers also pulling something over on jefferson. He smiles to jeffersons face and then hes going about writing to his friends and his brother, about dont worry, this is going to be university, not going to be involved in jeffersons crazy democratic ideas about the future. Or John Hartwell cox who is a very pious christians and hes one of the early leaders of the university and trying from the inside to take it over and doesnt get anywhere until jefferson dies and koch is going to be an influence over what the university will become in the 1830s, 40s and 50s. Thank you. One youll have to go to the mic. One last point or i can repeat it for you. The article in the washington post, your book mentions theres another book by one of your former colleagues at texas seems to plow much the same ground. What would i learn if i read both books i wouldnt get by reading one book . Well, you should read my book if youre going to read just one. [laughter] if youre going to read two, read, morrie mcginnis and lewis nelson, it is a collection of essays, which is more about the longer run of the history of the university. Im very much focused on jeffersons lifetime. Theyre focused on theyre kind of like taking up the baton where i leave off mostly. Theres some on the jefferson era, but theyre taking the story in a more thorough way forward in time on through the 19th century and into the 20th. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Want to sign some books . Yeah, happy to sign books. Thank you all. [applaus [applause] copies of jeffersons education will be available and alan will be over there signing and thank you again for coming. [inaudible conversations] week nights this months, were featuring book tv programs. Booktv all this weekend of the weekend here on cspan2. Television has changed since cspan began 41 years ago but our Mission Continues to provide an unfiltered view of government, already we brought you primary election coverage, the president ial impeachment process, and now the federal response to the coronavirus. You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs program on television, online or listen on our free radio app and be part of the National Conversation through cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media feed. Cspan, created by private industry, americas cabletelevision company, as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to politics and prose. Im bradley graham, a coowner of the book strolled along with my wife lissa muscatine. While the bears certainly been a lot of news this week, much of it of