In your book new innovation you tell the story about gas blower to team up with the founder of twitter to build a multibillion dollar payment company. In the book you talk about perfect problem so when did you realize these were a perfect problem . Its funny. I needed a way to delineate problems and if you think about the worlds problems you have the ones that are solved it can come to fruition but somebody already figured it out. So we just dont have the way to do it. That Stimulus Group in the middle to solve the problems that have not yet been solved. That is the focus. So in other words you are looking for a way to solve a problem that has not been done so you have to do something new. You dont get to copy. So jack dorsey and i come i hired him when he was 16 a High School Student to help me with a company that i still have. I dont run any of my companies. They manage themselves. We started working together through when he went to college. We kept in touch but then he was kicked out of twitter the first time. [laughter] they showed him the door he went back to st. Louis and we were talking and decided we would start a company together. We were kicking around ideas. We didnt have ideas so looking for problems that we could solve. When did you come to that conclusion . So as a glassblower tell me about that moment this was a problem for small merchants . Jack was just kicked out of twitter so my first reaction is he was like a little brother to me and i felt that i needed to stand up for. So what they did to him at twitter the first time was completely file. So my first suggestion was go to San Francisco and even just completely spite motivated. But jack to his credit said lets do something more positive and start a new company. So that was the impetus. And we were looking for a problem the only thing we determined the company would be focused on my phone i use it as a prop. These things. We will focus on these things because the iphone had just come out. We knew it would be important so we hired an engineer from apple and starting in two weeks for us to figure out what we were going to do. We couldnt think of anything. We were stretching for ideas so i am a glassblower. I make stuff that nobody needs i make art. In fact in dc i use to teach glassblowing for all the cspan viewers if you are there 20 years ago i was a guy that taught you how to make a paperweight. But the point is i was in my studio and i lost a sale because i couldnt take American Express card i was angry. I just lost it this great windfall. So was talking to the lady on one of these devices with the phone order so i have this attitude towards devices like this. This is magic and turns into anything i want to. A television, map, radio, that book. It didnt turn into a credit card machine. I was so angry but motivated to fix that so i called jack on the device and i said lets make her iphones turned into credit card machines. Thats where we started. Host the name of the book is the innovation stack. What is that and how did you learn about that from square . This is an something we knew about when we started square but the most powerful phenomenon i have seen in business. We stumbled across it it is simply a way to interweave inventions together. Sometimes simple inventions but if you put them together they take on their own life and create new industries. If you look history, at the industries that have starte started, almost always there is the innovation stack at the beginning. But i didnt know this. I had no idea this was happening and as a matter of fact, i wrote this book and having people review it like yourself, one of the greatest compliments i got was from a very successful entrepreneur interviewing me in his living room and he has a painting on the wall. So i am intimidated hes asking me about the book and he finally says i wish i knew this when i was 20 years old. I said me to. But it turns out there is a thing that happens, this process that happens when you start to solve a perfect problem that has not been solved before because most of what we do is copying and most of the tools and training with those solutions that exist. When you get out of the world of copying, you can build something that is truly different to create this innovation stack if you go to the innovation stack your company will dominate the world and run whatever business you are in. In the book talking about innovation stack its interesting that you focus on companies you dont associate with tech but i think people draw that parallel between tech and innovation like southwest and ikea. Why did you decide to focus on those outside of the Tech Industry . I am a scientist by training. My father was a scientist. I am steeped in the scientific method. If you are going to do a reasonably controlled experiment you need to eliminate variables and one of the most powerful variables is the phenomenon of viral growth in technology. If you look at the potential for a company that does nothing that interesting but add sufficient technology, you can get outside success. So what i did when i saw the pattern of the innovation stack. Is that i want to Study Companies but look at google. They are successful or amazon but what creates a success . In some cases it is just the pure disruptive nature of technology overwhelms anything else. This is my people studied googles business practices. They can find their own Space Program which is tremendous that management could be crummy but it sets a powerful force for technology. So if you exclude that what you are left with is businesses throughout history building those innovation stacks to dominate their industry so i go back several hundred years ago and work forward just to show the pattern that is systemic and innovation and not just the result of having Amazon Web Services and viral growth. People might be surprised to learn this actually started as a graphic novel. Tell us about that evolution. I didnt want to write a business book. I dont particularly like them they are boring. [laughter] this ponderous selfserving , not scientific. So i saw this and thought i have to share this. But i didnt want to write a business book so i start looking at stories of the companies that had done this. And the stories were epic. Fantastic. I have to tell this. I could use this as a graphic novel. So what i originally sold to penguin was a schizophrenic manuscript that was graphic novel then text and it flipped back and forth randomly and penguin liked it or pretended they liked it because they signed the contract now they own the book. When they took me to the windowless Conference Room in manhattan and had a little talk and said do you realize your cute little comics will not show up on a 4inch screen and people listen to this as an audiobook so as an audiobook it is useless you cannot say its a graphic novel so right there you lose 70 percent of your audience then just stick with what you got i got to rewrite it. So i rewrote the whole thing. But i still had all these great comics so i made my own comic. This is for you cant buy it i wont give you a copy of this because this is a story book banker but there is a murder page and a funeral and here is the destruction of a major city. This is comic book stuff and the reason i wanted to do a comic was because the tales of entrepreneurship or these companies with the innovation stack tend to be really good stories because failure actually makes good stories nobody wants to hear about success. Boring. But failure . Thats a good story. So i wanted to tell in this format. Although theres only one chapter that survives. If you buy the book i will give you the comic. I will not sell this but you can have it. And they are good stories. They are fun. And so often i find we forget the fun part to do something that hasnt been done and you have to failure and a sense of humor but mistakes everybody talks about that. So with that point on the comic book, i know only one chapter has turned into it now but it seems if you write a comic book about square the villain is amazon. Tell us what it was like when you realize that amazon was trying to directly compete with you in the payment space. Yes yes yes. Believe me i appreciate the irony in the middle of selling a book. [laughter] i will review myself or redeem myself at the last second. They did what they do. They looked at our market and decided to take it. When they take a market they do two things. They copy your product. They undercut your price almost by 30 percent and the they have like the amazon brand and a couple hundred million customers and then they watch you die. Square was four years old amazon did this and ran the playbook. So we were terrified and we went looking for solutions that we could copy to respond. We looked around for all the companies that had be in amazon when they were attacked and there were none. Netflix was already a giant but startups . Forget it. Zero. Zero startups that we could find have survived this attack by amazon so you are truly alone. And it was terrifying. There wasnt even that much we could do. But they were undercutting us they were being amazon and we were terrified but there wasnt much that we chose to do differentlys we looked at her options and then we realized we just kept doing it. We didnt even match them on price. For we just kept going. And it lasted a year and a half and that at the end on hallowee halloween, amazon gave up. And they mailed all of their former customers a little white square reader. I couldnt believe it. This never happens. This does not happen. But it is what happened. And that is what led me to the book because of somebody who was raised as a scientist, i needed an explanation. So why did this happen . You cant just be lucky. There is a phenomenon and it turns out square had an innovation stack. We didnt know it at the time and there were a bunch of reasons i had not seen it but once i saw it i said thats why. Thats what about all the other companies that i studied to survive these vicious attacks. Amazon was bad what happened to southwest was worse. We didnt end up in federal and state court. Herb kelleher and i. But you mentioned that you looked around and you could not find other companies that were able to be amazon but you also said he found some people that amazon beat but they would not talk to you on the record. Yes. I found many amazon victims and talk to them personally. And got their stories and then said thats great. Can i quote you . Know. Even the people who were in totally different industrie industries, people that were industries now competing with amazon. Everybody was so afraid of amazon that nobody would go on the record. I have zero on the record firsthand quotes in this book about what happened. Why are people so afraid . You have to ask them. I dont know. Thats not for me to share. But i will tell you it was so severe that i could get nobody to go on the record. So there are no quotations. Just me. Right now in washington there is a ton of scrutiny of antitrust grounds looking at congress and the ftc. Do you think amazon is a monopoly. Not a monopoly in the traditional sense. But i think they deafly have exhibited some of the behaviors of the market dominance. And i am not an antitrust lawyer i dont have a legally valid opinion but any company that gets big enough that it can move markets ought to be looked at. And then i guess i kind of and am with the question of the fed and im a big believer of regulation i think it is probably good in a lot of situations. But on the other side, the tech platforms and amazon in particular come are good at keeping the customer in mind. So i think what you are looking for is the tech platform that is very powerful to maintain a semblance of responsibility. Google has done that facebook has not. So their regulation is at different levels. I want to ask you about apple because it cannot exist without the iphone that much of us rely on the ipad so how do you think about them . Apple is superpowerful and they are really important to get along with. They also have great innovation. I have tremendous respect for apple we built our company on a product that apple introduced to the world with the mobile phone. So i have a tremendous amount of respect for them and also somebody you do not want to pass off. You do not want to do stuff like we did in the early days which could have upset apple a lot with the. Connector we put a square reader and through the microphone jack. That was a nono. We were not supposed to do that but then we thought maybe our product is so cool they will be cool with a because steve jobs at the time had a way to protect products if you thought you were cool you were fine. Apples lawyers would leave you alone. So we approached steve to save our butts. Host tell us about the design of square and that process to create such an iconic design that people recognize. The square card reader was this wide and then had a basic design flaw and it was one that i noticed that i chose not to correct that when you swipe a credit card through it was so narrow the card would wobble as it went through and it would result in a misread. So 80 percent of the time it would work in 20 percent of the time it would wobble and it wouldnt work. So to solve the problem i built another reader that was that wide and everybody was 100 percent with that so why did we build a tiny little device that did not work as well as the big one . It wasnt for cost. But the reaction was very different if i use the big device people thought another credit card device if i use the small one the one is in the smithsonian they were amazed what just happened remember the first time you saw a card go through the square reader you were impressed he got your attention. We took this giant gamble to build a product that mechanically did not work that well as it could but got your attention and blew you away. And set i think we just did something very cool. And to this day squares reader would work better if they were wider but they are cool. They are great and it turns out that 80 percent drops after practice so then youll always get a good read so by making a product that was less than perfect you could train the customers to use the product and then once they were using it they were showing off to their friends how good they were swiping the square. Host doesnt that major gamble because you talk about the distinction between entrepreneurs and above business people. Yes i was trying to discover what allowed square to survive and one amazon i saw the innovation stack. I have to draw this or right at this but tell the story that i immediately realized the english language does not have a word for this sort of process i was describing and that was building a business so how do you describe somebody who starts a business that was an entrepreneur a friend started a Coffee Company he has coffee shops. They have been around for centuries. If you dont know how to make a coffee shop you can go to a trade show they will teach you hire this vendor to set up the espresso machine so coffee has a soft problem how do you go from that to what has never been done before . The friend is trying to launch satellites for supercheap stripping them loading them up and then send 790,000 feet with a mock to power dive pulls up at the last set it on last second with Kinetic Energy and fires on the so if you could do that the we dont have to have a very big missile there so much energy to begin with. Launching a satellite is cheaper. Where is his trade show and russian fighter jets sending them up into the stratosphere. He doesnt get that he is living in a world where i needed to describe that. The word entrepreneur was originally used and popularized to describe the person who was doing something new and weird. Now it has since come to mean business. That is a correct use today. But the ancient use the 100 year old use that the economist for using 100 years ago meant they were doing something different. So we will use this word in the archaic definition this is the only word that we have to describe it. And i want to differentiate what it is like to not copy because i didnt want to write about. Thats a pain in the ass. It was very tough for me. I have to write another book. But i had to write this because i looked for that phenomenon that i had seen. So how will they explain it . Theres not even a vocabulary with the part that you want to talk about sweated dust off the definition of entrepreneur and then find examples that supported my thesis. When did you realize you found into that category . I am still realizing it. By my definition entrepreneurs solve a problem that has not been solved before or fail to resolve a problem that has not before. And i still dont have solutions but i also have the fortune to do some stuff that hasnt been done and then to see the results and they are tremendous. Is just a great thing when it finally works because typically the path that i have taken this failure failure it kind of succeeds but then it creates to other problems. One of two things will happen you will die or time and when you succeed you are in possession of the innovation stack and have done so many Different Things and that will interrelate and influence each other that what you have will look like nothing else and behave like nothing else. Even when amazon decides to copy what you just did, they cannot even with all the resources and talent, could not. This pattern is creates Great Solutions to new problems. Host he mentioned earlier you mentioned you knew jack dorsey since High School Student working for your company. Tell me when did you first realize he had some of these qualities of the entrepreneur . It was demonstrated the first night we made him pull an all mitre the day he was hired because literally everybody from around the location and his mother ran the coffee shop this is one ritalin was widely available. And marcia sold us the beans and i think she regretted it because we would go home at 5 00 a. M. That morning so thats how i met jack. [laughter] quality one, tenacity, got it. I later discovered that jack is incredibly competent. Hes quiet. Hes not bombastic but hes quiet and it shows through. You talked about relationships and you are so defensive of him so what are your thoughts now of a recent activist investor and what are your thoughts about that . Come on. You have tried that before. Dirt kicked them out once and brought them back you kicked my the second time and brought him back. Who else but jack will run that well . I dont know anything about twitter. I dont have anything to do with the company. But i would say that he is fantastic and things very deeply and the whining about the fact is running two companies, i think square has been phenomenally successful and that his other company and i leave him alone. Host what it is about him to give him the ability to run both of these successfully . He is single. [laughter] single and no kids. Are you married . Host i am not. You cannot have a family or kids but have to run another company . No problem. [laughter] im not saying its a good tradeoff but i had my first child and i could not work 12 hour days anymore. I didnt even know my kids and it wasnt fair for others working those hours to put in an eight hour day and say see you later. So that is when i left when my son was born. So he also has a tremendous work ethic but he is not dragging along a minivan full of civic ups. So how did your life change when the company went ipo . Now all of a sudden i was taller in my life and people treat you differently. My life didnt change all that much because i was living in st. Louis. I already paid off most of my debts. But it turns out going from a lot of debt to know debt is a big deal but no debt to a lot of money is not that big of a deal. So that was weird but people start to treat you different. So i noticed probably the biggest downside i stopped getting good feedback i just spent three years writing a book but i cant tell because everybody says your book is great and i say maybe youre just saying that. Maybe if i was a poor artist and much grumpier and less known i would probably get more feedback that the book might suck i dont know. You read it. The cameras are on. Host it is a fascinating account of your own experience in the research and to the other founders as well. I hope its not about me. Trust me you dont want to buy a book about me that the reason i included the story is twofold it supports the thesis and i have firsthand knowledge you cant get it anywhere else. But the rest of the book i wasnt going to fight right in this i found examples otherwise its like me talking about me and that is boring. It is a book on a phenomenon. Even though he didnt know what it was. So why is it important to know . The answer is it is affected of the reason i wrote it. I wrote this and i had a person in mind. She is incredibly competent and is so good and so much potential she disqualifies herself from trying to do know things because she says i have no qualifications and it is heartbreaking. Because being qualified is the right answer if thats possible. But if not then you are in my world. Then you will do stuff. I will fly home today. If i want to take control have to get certified and faa medical, 40 hours of trainin training, pass test and do all the stuff and even then if there are no clouds. So thats good. It be bad for me to get into the plane and say i will take over today you can be a qualified pilot but what about the right to brothers and the first person who ever flew . How do they steer it . Orville wright doesnt know or if it is even possible. He doesnt know because there can be no qualifications to be a pilot because nobody had been a pilot. So you have two pilots the pilot of 2020 better have medical and Flight Training but of the first flyer could not be qualified. Back to my friend. She has been raised and trained as we all have, we need to be qualified. Thats what school is about. Checking the box. Learn from people who know it better than you. That is good. Thats the way it should be unless you are doing something that has not been done. Or solving a problem that has not been solved. Great people like my friend to disqualify themselves because they dont feel qualified in a situation they will never feel qualified to do something. Ive done a bunch of stuff thats never been done. When i do i get nervous and my hands sweat. And im never qualified. Wasnt qualified to start a computer processing company. I was a glassblower jack is a massage therapist. The biggest bank in the worl world, he sold letters. Let us. Seventeen years old starts the Biggest Company in the world. They are not qualified to do this. But it turns out , qualification is effectively irrelevant. So i just wanted to reach out and give a taste of what its like in those stories that will hopefully entertain you that make you feel when you are in the middle of doing something you are not qualified to d do, that its okay, and others who are also not qualified, were in similar situations. Host what did it feel like at the very beginning of starting square, and realizing the payment space . There is one anecdote you are working on the product and you realize we are breaking 17 different laws right now. [laughter] how did you overcome that hurdle . Oh my god. We ignored it i stopped counting at 17 we discovered on the very first day what we were doing was against all these rules i said what we are doing is illegal. [laughter] it turns out it violated 17 when mastercard and visa requires you to handle all transactions all of our banking relationships. Which we have since complied with. I say that in washington we are now compliant and heavily audited. But it took us a year and a half to get compliant. We built it anyway. We turn the machine on even though it wasnt licensed there was no authentication but there was also no spark and explosion. It turns out it worked. And because the system worked we then had something we could point to that laws needed to accommodate us or change the laws or rules now in some cases we change to become compliant but a few cases we were in violation that had to be changed for us to exist so we would show them this beautiful thing that works that violated their rule. You need to change the rule. And they did. Host another area stops out in a highly regulated space and has to break the rules is the founder of Southwest Airlines one of the most fascinating parts of the book with your trip down to texas. So tell me about that. I know he passed away a year ago but what has his legacy been in the Business World . I miss have Herb Kelleher. I probably got the last living interview with him. The last one i have ever heard. He welcomed me down to Southwest Airlines because at the time i had a theory with Historical Data but the great thing from data from history he will not return from the grave it will just not happen. But that is a copout. I wanted to take my theory to somebody who had been there so you have lived through something he was incredibly generous and super fun he smoked two packs while we were down there and he said hell yeah. This is the stories and to say that was worse. He was like watching the world through a magnifying glass smokefilled he was so cool and fun and he reminded me of how much fun and i tried to capture that. Is that i have to make you a superhero and asked him permission and he said no. He felt that wasnt dignified enough. You can have a cape. But im just kidding but he did not want to be portrayed like i did for giannini. But what a Great Company they built. If you know what the world of air travel looked like before southwest exclusive providence of the rich you could only fly if you were rich. And the government included only rich people wanted to fly because they study the people on the fly so people want to be on planes without asking the question what if you give the affordable fair can he visit his grandmother . Herb changed so many lay one lives now people can go to the Cancer Centers to get Cancer Treatment and then fly back to be with their family. You build innovation and you do this you will materially improve the lives and herb was a living example and im so sorry we lost him. Host its a great story in the book when you get out of the car picked up a cigarette pack off the ground and he signed it for your. Ive never asked for an autograph in my life. I have friends in the nba come i never ask for an autograph. I was so starstruck by Herb Kelleher that i wanted his autograph but i scribbled in my notebook so there was no space left. Hes driving me to the airport in his car. It is trashed full of empty cigarette boxes so i handed to the man and i said will you autograph a pack of cool the bells for me . He said sure. So he grabbed the pen and thats my most prized possession sitting in my office in a little case i built for it. Is pretty special. Host mentioning the innovations that can change lives, what is the legacy of square and how is that changing peoples lives . We are in the middle of the coronavirus that changes. A lot of people Big Companies may not be so big after a while but its only viable as you can get paid if you sell something that cost more than a hundred bucks nobody carries cash anymore and checks are basically dead if you dont take electronic or plastic form of payment you will not do that so to enable that square has started the process and then we piled on with all of the fantastic tools so now i run my little glass studio for payroll but theyre all these tools the Big Companies use to have them now allows me to compete with them dont have to worry because square will help me handle that so give tools to the Little People and they can compete with the big company so thats what i found so gratifying with this Small Business person. And the business is working because she makes or sells or do and we are making it easy for her. Host tell me when you step back from square day today you started a nonprofit . Yes. Launch code. We had a big deficit of programs so we needed programmers because we couldnt hire enough in my hometown which is heartbreaking because i wanted him to be partially located in my hometown. As i look back the problem is interesting because it turns out education doesnt work in computer programming. If we need builders you can train welders. But if you need programmers then for some reason that doesnt work and the problem has been getting bigger for the last 20 years. Thirty years actually. And we had plenty of training during that time. Theres a bunch of problems but the main problem employers will not hire a newly minted programmers because they can do too much damage if they dont know what they are doing. They dont have experience that they cant get a job so it is a catch22. We started launch code is a Free Training Program to give you the skills you need for free. The most important thing is we start as a job placement. If you have the skills we get you a job no matter the credentials so we built the innovation stack what somebody had not figured out before how to place people with competent coding skills was the role experience not in a way to hurt them without asking them to be nicer pay it forward. Pure greed motivated Companies Hire them because its good for them it is greed based. So that job placement we couple with education. We have another innovation and we make it free. Free innovation is launch code innovation stack that is magical because it does two things. It opens the doors to everybody and we find talented people everywhere. That you do not expect that they were not test the way that you would expect. We can prove they are great they get a free education. So tell me there is skepticism in the beginning about the business book. Some are great but i have read enough. You know. Host so what is the biggest take away that entrepreneurs take away from your book . If you do something significant you will not feel qualified to do so and i can tell you why you feel that way and show you a path out and then it will show you the innovation stack which you can build and then you transform the industry and then you create a new industry thats different than the others. And you are almost beyond attack we saw a current example there are dozens in california right now. Or around the country but its a powerful thing. If you are a little bit less scared. A little bit i dont want to think people think its a checklist or a guidebook its not how to but a confession of somebody who has been there coupled with supporting historical evidence all around the idea true innovation that has not been done before feels different and you dont discuss it. What is that like . Lets talk about that. And hopefully if you read it and find yourself in a situation for the perfect problem you will not disqualify yourself. A multimillionaire is super successful. He told me he shot one of his companies down six steps into the innovation stack. If i had read your book i would not have quit so early. So what would the world be like . He tried to solve a big problem. But thats because they kept getting negative feedback. And he quit. He was successful. If i could use his name i would and you would be impressed but i didnt get his permission to tell the story. So i cant but dont disqualify yourself. Or know when or have a sense because it will feel different. Host obviously the book just hit shelves but have you share this idea of the innovation stack and see it play out successfully with any other budding entrepreneurs . Im not trying to hoard the idea with you can piece this together its an easy way to disseminate knowledge i share this all the time i work with entrepreneurs and talk to them and encourage them and then actually i discourage them to see if they can handle it but the best advice i can give is that new solutions are really messy. We have been trained to want validation in advance and that will kill you and stop you every time. Get over that. And then i hope people care about something to stick their next out because the great entrepreneurs that i have studied none of them are doing it for the fame for the public facing benefit side but because they care deeply about solving a problem. It will give you a tremendous motivation. See you dont even have to buy the book but the point is to get the motivation to what you solv solve. And that any motivator cant. Even your family members. You need something to stand on. You talk about there are so many copycats and Silicon Valley there is that distinction. What is a company you have seen recently that is our real disruptor . So let me step back and talk about copycats i love copying i think that is exactly the way to do anything. Everything here is a copy. But it is a copy because people have built tv studios and have figured out that we dont sweat thats why we like airconditioning this is a copy of other two tv studios and that is good serving as a perfectly good chair. I love copying. But i believe it should stop i dont believe we should only copy. So if you limit yourself to only the world of known solutions you will deprive all of us of the new things so companies i think are doing great i love space x. But the guy who sits there and says i will land our rocket like that well my rocket will land straight up and down. And i will stick the landing. I dont know how many times. You saw those videos. But tesla is not a traditional automobile that has the massive innovation stack you see just a battery and electric motor you are dead wrong they look at the chassis, how you approach a ca car, there are hundreds of things that are different gm will have a hard time copying. So tremendous respect for those that get so much abuse in the early stage if you want to see someone with the innovation stack it should be the most mocking. So what is the next perfect problem . The one im working on right now is journalism. Specifically the problem that we as individuals lost control of our Online Identities and we no longer have control over part of ourselves and with a bunch of bad Tech Companies i dont know whats in the files for to be used against me. It is just bad for me as an individual. But i lost my economic voice. I cannot pay more for good content. So heres the problem. Most media is monetized using advertising. And most videos are supported in the Washington PostFinancial Times and the economist but not one of those five so actually and try to talk me into doing this and the reason he wanted to do this is because all of this as consumers and to spend my money. And vegan im on a plant based diet. If i buy a bunch of expensive vegetables and pay more for a plant burger than a real hamburger then thats a vote for a plant based diet. Thats 20 votes for this sort of thing and then we tabulate those that gives us quality in everything but not online because the thing about online consumption is i a trick you to want something for ten seconds so you are journalist thats what you do you fact check have a whole Organization Behind you who pays for that . Consumers like me i need to pay you more because it has to create that quality its not whos right or who was wrong but humans need to be able to express their preferences. Think of it in terms of food if every meal was ten dollars in dc would you like it . In the winter a great restaurant tonight. No. They just want out of business because i can put a fancy steak in front of you for ten dollars. So now the Business Model replaces it so well make the cheapest crap we can and some of her ten dollars. Thats the world we live in in journalism. So that decline is in so so the model of what we put in our heads is now economically incentivized by this system that rewards sheep. Thank god jeff is rich in amazon is a Great Company because now jeff employees you. Thank you jeff. But the point is we shouldnt have to live in that world. Host that is fascinating. Unfortunately all the time we have today so thank you and the innovation stack is the name of the book