In your new book the innovation stack you talk about a glassblower to team up with the founder of twitter to build a multibilliondollar Payment Company you talk about perfect problems when did you realize how Business Payments were a perfect problem . I needed a way to delineate problems if you think about the worlds problems those that are solved so we could copy the solution. And then for one reason or another are not solvable. We dont have a way to do it but then that group in the middle of solvable problems that have not yet been solved is the perfect problem because that is the focus of what we accomplished to look for a way to solve a problem that is solvable that hasnt been done you have to do something new. So what happened with jack dorsey and i come i hired him when he was 15. A High School Student came into work at a company that i still have. I dont run any of my companies but i also dont sell them. We started working together and he went to college. We kept in touch. Then he got kicked out of twitter. The first time. They showed him the door he came back to st. Louis and we were hanging out and talking and decided we would start a company together. We were kicking around ideas. We started looking for problems we could solve and came up with a problem of how small merchants got paid. When did you come to that conclusion . You talk about your work as a glassblower so tell me the moment he realized payments were a problem for small merchants. He was just kicked out of twitter my first reaction is he was like a little brother to me and someone i felt i needed to stand up for what they did to him the first time was completely file. File. So i said lets get even with them like it was despite motivated to his credit he said lets do something more positive and start a new company. Then we were looking for a problem then we could only determine our company would be focused these things we will focus on these because the iphone had just come out we knew it would be important so we hired an engineer from apple he was starting in two weeks and that gave us two weeks to figure out what we were going to do. We were stressing for ideas im a glassblower. I make stuff that nobody needs. Art. In dc i used to teach glassblowing in Glen Echo Park 20 years ago i was a guy that taught you how to make a paperweight. I was in my studio trying to sell a piece of glass and i lost a sale because i couldnt take american express. I was angry i just lost this great windfall. And i was talking to the lady on one of these devices. I have this attitude toward devices like this. This is magic and turns into anything. Television, map, radio, that book, literally if you want but it didnt turn into a credit card machine. I was angry but also motivated to fix that so i called jack and said lets make the iphones into a credit card machine. The name of the book is the innovation stack. What is the innovation stack and how did you learn about that quick. Its not something we knew about when we started square but the most powerful phenomenon i have seen in business. We stumbled across it. The innovation stack is simply a way to interweave inventions together sometimes very simple but then they take on their own life to create a new industry. Look throughout history at the Great Industries that have started almost always there is the innovation stack at the beginning. We didnt know this. I had no idea this was happening as a matter of fact i wrote the book and have people review it. One of the greatest compliments i got was from a very successful entrepreneur in his living room he has a painting on the wall that is worth more than my house. So i am intimidated he is asking me about the book and finally says i wish i knew this when i was 20 years old. I said me to. But it turns out there is a thing that happens, this process when you start to solve the perfect problem because most of what we do is copying and the tools and training and comfort was solutions that exist thats truly different. It creates the innovation stack. Then your company will dominate the world. And then to focus on companies and then people thought draw that parallel that southwest and ikea so why did you focus on those outside of the industry quick. I am a scientist by training varies deep in the Scientific Method and then to eliminate variables one of the most powerful is the phenomenon of viable growth and technology if you look at the potential of the company that does nothing that interesting but sufficient technology to an old business so when i saw this pattern of the innovation stack i want to Study Companies but not google. Those that are successful or amazon but what creates success . In some cases just the pure disruptive nature overwhelms anything else this is why we study google practices they can find their own Space Program which is tremendous that management could be crummy but it is still a powerful force. If you exclude that businesses that have still dominated the industrys. So 100 years ago working for word that the pattern is systemic in innovation and not just the result of viable growt growth. People may be surprised to learn it started as a graphic novel. Tell me about that evolution. I didnt want to write a business book. Business books are boring. Ponderous selfserving tones. And didnt want to write a business but. And this could be a graphic novel. So what i originally sold to penguin was a schizophrenic manuscript that was graphic novel and tack and it flipped back and forth randomly. Penguin liked it or pretended they did because they signed the contract now they on the book. And it went like this that your cute little comics will not show up in a foreign screen. And they will listen to this as an audiobook it is useless. You cannot take a graphic novel and put it into the audiobook so then you lose 70 percent of your audience. Then you have to rewrite it. They were right. I rewrote the whole thing but i still had the great comics so i made my own comic. She has the book i have the comic. You cannot buy it i will give you a copy for free. This is a storybook thinker. There is a murder on that page. And the destruction of a major city. This is comic book stuff because the details of entrepreneurship and those innovation stacks tend to be really good stories. Nobody wants to hear about success. How did you get that scar . Thats a good story. I wanted to tell it in this format only one chapter survives. If you buy the book i will give you the comic. They are good stories and they are fun. So often i find we ignore the fun part. So on the comic book so with you write about square then the building would be amazon so tell me what it was like when you realized amazon was trying to directly compete with even the payment space . I appreciate the irony dissing amazon in the middle of selling a book. [laughter] i will redeem myself at the last second. Amazon did what they do. They looked at the market and decided to take it. They copy the product. They undercut the price usually by 30 percent and then they add whatever else they have like customers and their brand and then watch you die. At four years old they ran the playbook so we were terrified and we went looking for solutions we could copy to respond. We looked around for all the companies that had be in amazon when they were attacked and there were none. Netflix is already a giant but startups . Zero. Nine have us on have survived this attack. I was terrified looking at what we could do that amazon was undercutting us on price. They were being amazon and we were terrified but there will wasnt much we chose to do differently so looking at all those options we realized for very good reasons that we just kept doing it amazons price was 30 percent lower we didnt match the price we just kept going and it lasted a year and a half and at the end halloween 2016 amazon gave up and mailed all the former customers a little white square reader. I couldnt believe it. This never happens but it is what happened and thats what led me to the book because as raised as a scientist i needed an explanation why this happened you just cant be lucky. We had the innovation stack. We did not know that at the time there is a bunch of reasons i havent seen it but once i did thats what allowed us to survive and all the other companies i studied to survive vicious attacks. Southwest airlines was worse we didnt have federal and state court Herb Kelleher had it worse than i did. Host you said you mentioned you can find other companies but you also say in the book he found people amazon beat but they would not talk to you on the record. I found many people and talk to them personally and got their stories and said thats great can i quote you . Know. Even people in a totally different industry that were now competing with amazon everybody was so afraid nobody would go on the record i have zero on the record firsthand quotes about what happened. Host why are they so afraid . Ask them. I dont know. Is not for me to share but it was so severe i couldnt get anybody to go on the record. There are no quotations. Just me. We are sitting in washington where there is a time and scrutiny on antitrust grounds at the moment. So do you think amazon is a monopoly . Not in the traditional sense but those behaviors of market dominance i have a legally valid opinion that any company that gets big enough to move markets not to be looked at. Im not a regulator. I guess i am now i sit on the fed im a big believer of regulation is probably good in a lot of situations. But the tech platforms and amazon in particular are very good so what youre looking for is a tech platform that is very powerful that still maintains a semblance of responsibility. Google has been facebook has not. They deserve regulation at different levels. Host i want to ask about apple because way or cannot exist without the iphone and then related one relied on the ipad. Apple the superpowerful they are important to get along with. They have Great Innovation we built our Company Based on our product that apple introduced to the world. This apple invention so i have a tremendous amount of respect for them and also not somebody you want to put this off. Like we did in the early days we bypass the connector on the bottom and put the square reader to the microphone jack. That was a nono when we were supposed to put them me that maybe its so cool they will be good with it because steve jobs is in control at the time had a way of protecting products that he liked. If he thought you were cool you are fine and the lawyers would leave you alone so we approached steve. Host tell me about the design of square and process to create such the iconic design thats in the smithsonian. The card reader which was this wide when i was even smaller had a basic design flaw. It is one that i noticed in a chose not to correct when you swipe the credit card through it was so narrow the card would wobble and as a result it would be a misread. But the reaction was very different, if i use the big device, people were like hohum, nanother credit card reader, ifi use a small device, in the smithsonian, they were amazed, they were blown away, what just happened, remember the first time you saw the a car go through the square reader, you were impressed, everybody was impressed, i got your attention, we took a giant gamble at square to build a product that mechanically did not work all that well as it could but just got your attention and pull you away and look so cool and was fun to have and people were talking about it and people were like we just have to go for the cool, we went to something that was supercool in this day, squares readers, they would worked better if they were wider, but they are cool, they are great and the funny thing is, it turns out that 80 really dropped after a little bit of practice, what you practice a little bit you will get a good read. So we discovered by making a product that was less than perfect, we trained customers to use our product and then once they were using it, they were showing off to their friends how good they were and swiping the square. Thats a major gamble and remind me of one part of the book you talk about the distinction between entrepreneur and business people, can you talk a little bit about that. I was trying to discover what allowed square to survive amaz amazon, in the process i saw this thing called an innovation stack and i wanted to tell the world, i have to draw this or write this but i have to tell the story and i immediately realized that the english language does not have a word for this process that i was describing and the processor was describing was building a business but not a business that has been done before, how do you describe somebody who goes out and start a business, thats an entrepreneur but i have a friend who started a Coffee Company and hes an entrepreneur, he opened up a Coffee Company, thats a coffee shop but coffee shops have been around for centuries, you know how to make a coffee shop and if you do not know how to make a coffee shop, you can go to tradeshow where they would teach you all the stuff you can need, to set up your expression machine calmly coffee is a soft problem, how do you differentiate Something Like that from somebody who hasnt been done before, im another friend who is trained to launch satellites for supercheap, hes mine old russian fighter planes, stripping all the crab out of them and they send him up to 90000 feet, they put them in a mock two power dive and pulls up at the last second and they have kinetic energy, their 70000 feet up any fires a missile and what you do when you fire it 70000 feet you dont have to have a very big missile under so much to begin with. And there is nothing, he does not get it, he living in a different set of rules, hes living in a world where i needed to be able to describe that, it turns out the word entrepreneur was originally used and popularized to describe the person who is doing something new and weird and it might not work. It was the original use of the work, it has since come to mean business, you can say youre not to printer and you started the business, thats the correct use today, but the ancient use, the hundredyearold use, of sean peter and an economist we are using 100 years ago that somebody who is doing something different. So in the book i go back 100 years and i say were going to use this word and were going to use it in the archaic definition, thats only word we have that i can used to describe it and i wanted to be able to differentiate what it is like to not copy because i think i did not want to read the book, the pain in the and im a slow writer and its very tough for me. It wasnt like oh god i gotta write another book. I had to write this thing, and look for the explanation phenomenon that id seen, nobody ever explained it and i understood why, there is not a vocabulary for the part that you want to talk about. So i needed to dust off the definition of entrepreneur and then go and find examples that supported my thesis. When did you realize, you yourself well into the category of entrepreneur versus business person. I am realizing it, by my definition entrepreneur people who solve problems that have not been sober for, they sometimes fail to solve problems that are not been solved before and im in the other category, i have a lot of problems that i worked on that i do not have solutions for. But ive also had the fortune of doing some stuff that have not been done and having it work and seeing the results, the results are tremendous so it is a great thing when it worked and when it finally works, typically the path that ive taken is failure, failure, failure in something fixates but that creates two other problems, not seen have to solve those, you do that enough, one of two things will happen, you will die because you run out of energy or resources or time or you will succeed when you succeed you will basically be in possession of a thing called innovation stack, you will done so many Different Things in those Different Things will interrelate and influence each other, what you have will look like nothing else on the market and it will behave like nothing else in the market, even when amazon decides to try to copy what you did, they will not be able to, even amazon with all the resources and talent, they could not do it. This pattern is what creates Great Solutions to new problems. You mentioned earlier that youve known jack dorsey since he was a High School Student and was working for your company, tell me when did you first realize that he had some of these qualities of an entrepreneur. The first quality was demonstrated the first night because we made them hold an allnighter in the day he was hired we were in a panic, we made a giant air and we needed everybody we can, thats how we got to him because we were literally who bring up everybody from around the location where the company was and his mother ran the coffee shop that sold us the chocolate covered espresso beans that we were using to keep everybody awake, this is before ritalin was widely available so we would stay awake by munching on caffeine and marsha sold us the beans and she let us hire her son and i think she regarded it because we sent him home at 5 00 a. M. That morning on his first day of work. Thats how im jack. Quality one, tenacity, got it. Survive on little sleep, got it. I later discovered that jack is just incredibly competent, he is quiet, hes not a bombastic person but hes really good and it just shows through. You mentioned earlier you have a brother like relationship with him and youre so defensive of him the first time he was pushed out of twitter, what are your thoughts now that there is a recent activist investor push once again to potentially push them out of the company and what are your thoughts about that. You guys have tried that before, if you kick him out twice, let him run his company, you kick them out once and brought about, he kicked him out a second brought about, you didnt kick about the third time, they come to some terms, come on, who else is going to run twitter well. I dont know anything about twitter, i dont have anything to do with the company but i would say this, jack is a fantastic leader, he is a guy who thinks very deeply in this whining about the fact that hes running two Public Companies were, what could go wrong, i think square has been phenomenally successful nic were hes working competently at his other company and i leave him alone. Got it. What do you think it is about him that gives him the ability to run the Large Company successfully. He is single. Single and no kids. I asked my friend, are you married . Im not. All the married folks out there, we get it, if i said you cannot have a family, not have kids that have to run another company, no problem. Im not saying family is not a good tradeoff but actually thats why is left square. I had my first child and i cannot work 12 over days anymore, i would not know my kids and it was not fair with with all the other people were working those hours and for me too stay around and put in an eight hour day and say see you guys. I cant do that, that was when i left after my son was born. I think my dad got a tremendous worth ethic but is not dragging along a minivan full of sippy cups. You mentioned your departure from square, how did your life change with the company ipo. Ipo, i was all of a sudden taller than i was ever in my life, people start treating you differently, my life didnt change all that much because i was living in st. Louis, i had already paid off most of my debts so i was not in debt, it turns out going from from allotted it to know debt is a big deal, going from no debt to a lot of money isnt that big of a deal, i dont spend that much so that was weird, but people started treating you differently. I noticed that this was the biggest downside, i stopped getting good feedback. So i just spent three years writing a book and i think its a good book but i cannot tell because everybody says jim your book is great and im like well maybe hes just saying that, i think if i was my old artist self when i was much grumpier and sort of less known, i would probably be getting more feedback than the book might suck, i dont know, you read it, you dont have to be honest, the cameras are on. Its a fascinating count of your own experience and also your research into so many other founders was fascinating as we well. I hope its not about me, the book is not about me, you dont want to buy a book about me. The story is good with the reason i included is twofold, one is supports the thesis into i have firsthand knowledge, have complete firsthand, you cant get anywhere what it felt like but the rest of the book, by the way wasnt good or right unless they found examples of the phenomenon elsewhere otherwise its me talking about me and thats boring. Its not a book on square or about me, its a book about a phenomenon that allowed us to create square even though we did not know what it was. And you say if you built square without knowing what it is, why is it important to know and the answer is, you get back to the core and the reason i wrote it, i know, i wrote this when i was writing it and i type the words i had a person in mind, i know who she is, shes incredibly competent. She is so good and so much potential but shes one of these people who disqualifies herself from trying to do new things because she doesnt have a lot of qualifications to do the new thing and its heartbreaking because being qualified is the right answer if qualification is possible. But if it is not, then youre in my world, then our printer burner and then youll do stuff thats really weird. Ill give you an example, if i want to fly home today, my friend fleming appear, if i wanted to control the plane, have to get certified and get a fa medical and 40 hours of training and pass all these tests and i have to do all the stuff to make me qualified and then i can only fly in their class. So thats good would be bad for me too get the plane and say took over from here, schoonover. Today you can be a qualified pilot and you should be a qualified probably. What about the wright brothers, the first person who ever flew, how are they going to steer the thing, he does not know, he does not know if its possible, he does not know because there can be no qualifications to be a pilot because nobodys ever been a pilot or built a plane. You have two pilots here, the pilot of 2020 better have a type rating, but i have a medical or all the stuff that they need, the pilot of the first right flyer cannot be qualified, back to my friend, she has been raised in trained as we all have that we need to be qualified to do the things, thats what school, getting qualified, checking the box. And learn from people who know better, all the stuff, printers. That is good, thats a way should be except in the case of you doing something that has not been done, we have 70 problems on not been solved if we have great people like but fred who wrote the book for, disqualifying themselves because they dont feel qualified in a situation where they will never feel qualified, nobody will food qualified to do that, ive done a bunch of stuff that has not been done and every time i hand sweat. You get nervous im never qualified, im not qualified to start a Payment System, and a Computer Science degree, new zip about payments, tax only professional credential, hes a massage therapist. The biggest bank in the world, the guy he was a produce vendor, he sold lettuce. The Biggest Furniture store in the world started with a guy who is 17 years old. Kicked out of his own country but a 17 euros start to Biggest Furniture company in the world. Theyre not qualified to do this. But it turns out qualification is effectively irrelevant if youre doing something you, i just wanted to reach out and give a taste of what its like and then stories that hopefully will entertain you but make you feel when youre in the middle of doing something that you are not qualified to do that it is okay and the others were not qualified to do the great things that they did were in similar situations. What did it feel like when you were at the very beginning of starting square and realizing how much he needed to learn about the payments space, i remember theres one antidote in the book where youre working on the product and you realize that you think were breaking about 70 different laws right now. [laughter] how did you overcome that hurdle . I ignored it, we ignored it, i stopped counting at 17, we discovered on the very first day that what we were doing was against all the rules and i turned to the guys and said what were doing is illegal. And it turns out it was not just illegal in one way, and violated 70 different rules and regulations when mastercard and visa required you to handle the card present transactions to all of our banking relationships and tons of stuff. In 17 laws and rules. Which we have since complied with, i say then washington. We are not compliant heavily audited, but it took us a urine have to get compliant. So we built anyway, we turn the machine on even though the machine was not licensed, there is no ul certification when i plugged the first grade reader into the first iphone. There was also no spark explosion. It turns out it worked, the system worked in because the system worked, we then had this thing that we could point to to get the people whose laws needed to change to accommodate us to change the laws or change the rules, in some cases we would change we tried to change her system to become compliant with the whole system but there were a few cases where we were in violation of something that had to be changed in order for square to exist, we would go to them and show them this beautiful thing that worked, and violated the rule, you need to change the world they did not. Another found in your book a starts out in a highly regulated space and had to break some rules at the beginning as a founder of Southwest Airlines and those are some of the most fascinating parts of the book, your trip down to texas to meet him and tell me a little bit about that, i know he passed away a year ago, id love to hear your thoughts on what his legacy has been in the business world. I miss herb keller, he was so generous, i probably got the last living interview with him. Alisa lost when i ever heard. He welcomed me down to Southwest Airlines, the time i had a theory, i had all this historical data, and all this great data from history, the great thing about data from history, he died in the 40s and he cant argue with you, if im dead wrong, he will not return from the grave to go on cspan and contradict me, it will not happen. But thats a copout, i had a theory and i wanted to take my theory and hold it to somebody who had been there and say herb, you have lived through something that was similar, what was it like, he was incredibly generous, he was super fun, he smoked two packs of cool menta menthols and the sky said same thing, every story that i had, im stuck in between something nasty or herb had five that were worse, herb was like watching the world through a magnifying glass through smokefilled magnifying glass, he was so cool and so fun and he reminded me of how much fun it was and i tried to capture that in the book and i had the whole graphic novel ready for her and im like i gotta make your superhero and i asked him for permission to do that and he said no. He said he felt it wasnt dignified enough. And i was like okay, you can have the cake and he said i dont eat cake. So herb did not want to be portrayed but what a man. What a Great Company they built. If you know what the role of air travel looks like before southwest, it was an exclusive provenance of the rich, you can only fly if you are rich and the government in their incident wisdom conclude the only rich people wanted to fly because they studied all the people in the planes and said only rich people on the plains only rich people want to be on planes and asking questions what if you offer him an affordable herb changed so many lives, probably saved so many lives, people can go on southwest and get Cancer Treatment at the Cancer Centers where they get the right equipment and then they confide to be of their family, these things are lifechanging but you build an innovation, you do this and you will materially improve the lives of millions of people in herb was a living example of that and im so sorry that we lost him. Theres a great story in the book when youre getting out of the car and he picked up a cigarette pack off the ground and he signed up for you. I never asked for an autograph in my life, i have friends i one friend in the mba and nba star, i never asked for an autograph, i was so starstruck by herb that i wanted his autograph but i filled up a notebook so there was most often and he striving me to the airport in his car in the cars trashed, full of empty cigarette boxes so i got the cigarette box and i handed to the man and i was like will you autograph a pack of cool menthols for me and he was like sure, so he grabs a pin and he signs it and is my most prized possession, its sitting in my office in this case. Its very special. You mentioned the innovation stocks can change lives, when you think about that, what do you think the legacy of square is and how is a change peoples lives. Square has allowed people to go into business for themselves. Were right in the middle the coronavirus, life is going to change, a lot of people have worked for Big Companies may not be working for them after a while. Selfemployment is a viable option but only viable if you can get paid, if you sell something that cost more than a hundred bucks nobody cares that much cash and checks are basically dead. If you dont take a plastic form of payment, you will not get the money. In square by enabling that tool has started this process and then we piled on by adding these fantastic tools so now, iran my graph studio using a dozen different square tools from payroll to laws or programs, is not about that but the point is theres all these tools, the Big Companies used to have and now i have is a small company, it allows me too compete with apps. I do the stuff theyre doing, i dont have to worry about having the best hr system because square will help me. You give tools to the Little People and they can compete with the big company. And thats what i find so gratifying. When i see a Small Business person who is doing what she loves to do in the business is working because she has the thing that is making or selling or doing and she can ignore the rest of it. That is lifechanging. Tell me a little bit about when to step back from square d today and moved to st. Louis, you started a nonprofit. Yes launch code. So st. Louis had a problem, we had a big deficit of programs but we need a program and we had an office in st. Louis but we close because we cannot hire enough programmers in my hometown which is heart breaking because i wanted square to be partially located in my hometown. And as i move back i learned the problem is interesting because it turns out that education does not work in computer programming, works for everything else, if we need welders in the supply welders will go away. But if you need programmers, for some reason that does not work, we know it does not work because the problem has been getting bigger and the shortage program has been getting bigger for the last 20 years. 30 years actually. And we had plenty of training during the time, the problem with training, budget problems, the one of the main problems is that employers will not hire newly meant to programmers because they can do too much damage because they have no experiments because itll have a job, and they dont get no experience in its a catch 22. So we started launch code and launch code is a Free Training Program and it gives you the stuff you need for free. The most important thing about launch code is that we started not as a Training Program but as a job placement system. If you have the skill launch code would get to the job no matter what your credentials are and we figured out was somebody is never forgettable for how to place people with confidence coding skills but zero experience, into a company in a way that does not hurt the company, were not asking companies to be nice or kind or pay it forward or any of that crab, pure greed motivated companies, hire launch coders because it is good for the good greedy companies, its greed base. So the job placement we coupled with education and we had another innovation which is make you free. It turns out free innovation which is part of launch codes innovation im sorry Free Education which is part of the innovation fact is magical because it does two things, it opens up the doors to everybody, we find talented people everywhere, people you would not expect or look at or test and they would not look or test the way you would expect them, their great and we can prove their great, and they could get a job and kick ass. Tell me, you raise a skepticism in the beginning of the interview about business books. Yes. Some of them were great but i read enough, you kind of know. With the skepticism and mine, what are the biggest takeaways that you hope potential entrepreneurs take away from your book . If you do something significant, you will not feel qualified to do so and i can explain exactly why you feel that way and show you a path out, then i will show you the thing called innovation stack which you can build and if you build it you end up transforming your industry and you dont even transformer, you create a new industry that is different than other industries in your almost beyond attack, we see this again, tesla is a great example in current day theres dozens examples in california, theres probably hundreds examples around the country, its a powerful thing. If you see the thing and recognize that, youll be a le little bit less scared. I dont want people to think its a guide or checklist, its not a howto guide. Its basically the concession of somebody who has been there coupled with supporting historical evidence and then all tied together around this idea the innovation, true innovation, stuff that has not been done before feels differently we did not discuss it. And what is that light, lets talk about that. Hopefully if you read it and used find yourself in a situation where you can solve a perfect problem, you wont disqualify yourself early. Like this guy was heartbreaking, hes a multimillionaire, hes super successful, he is a painting worth more than my house, he told me he shot one of his companies down when he was six steps into an innovation step, if i read your book i might not acquit sorely. And i sat there for second and i was like what would the world be like, he is trained to solve a big problem, he quit and he said i cannot do it. But thats because i kept getting all the negative feedback, people telling me, all the stuff i talk about in the book, and he quit, this is a guy who is successful in a complete bad, i could use his name i would and you would be impressed but i cant use his name because i didnt get his permission to tell a story. But dont disqualify yourself or at least know when to disqualify or have a sense of what it looks like because it will feel different. Obviously the book just hit shelves, have you shared this idea of innovation stack encina play out successfully with any other entrepreneurs . Im not trying to hoard the idea, i think we can piece together all the interviews and you dont have to buy the book, you can piece it together, its an easy way to put it, its an easy way to disseminate knowledge, i do this all the time and i work with entrepreneurs and talk to them and encourage them and i actively discourage them to see if they can handle it. But i think the best advice that i can give is that new solutions are really messy ugly things and we have been trained to want validation in advance and that is going to kill you, that will stop you every time and get over that. And i hope that people will care about something enough to stick their max out because what i found again elisa the great entrepreneurs and some that are doing for the money, maybe a little bit, none are doing for the same or the public facing benefits, not that those are necessarily benefits but theyre doing it because secure deeply about solving a problem, if you care enough about a problem it will give you this tremendous motivation. Im giving away another chapter, you dont have to buy the book. Just give it. The point is you get that motivation to solve a problem that you really care about and that motivation if you care deeply about the problem will drive you in a way that money, fame or any other motivator camp. A lot of times you will need them because this lonely path. Especially when your family members, your spouse, i come home to this day and tell my wife some of the things im working on and she rolls her eyes and says thats not going to work. So you have to have something to stand on. You talk about how there so many copycats especially in Silicon Valley and theres a distinction between the copycats and the real disruptors and innovators, was a company that youve seen recently that you think is a disruptor and youre excited about . Let me step back and talk about cats, copycats. I have no judgment against copying, low copying and i think its exactly the way to do anything. Everything in this room, im pretty sure in this room. Everything here is a copy, some of it is safe, those are not real tvs, it is a copy and that is right because people have built tv studios before they figured out that they need to air condition this that we dont sweat in this tv we are in right now is a copy of other tv studios and a desk in a chair and all the stuff is copies and thats good because they work in a chair is serving as a good chair and have not thought about until i saw don. I love copying and all copy if theres an existing solution. But i dont believe you should stop at copying. I dont believe that we should only copy. I believe if you limit yourself to only the world of known solutions, you will deprive all of us of this new thing that you can potentially invent. So companies are thicker doing great, i love tesla, i frankly love spacex, and i only met a couple times but the guy who sits her and says im going to land a rock like that in my rock is going to land straight up and down, im going to take up this and im going to stick the landing in the first five times or seven times, i dont how many times, use all the videos, all of it was on. But he sticks the landing. The tesla is not a traditional, it has a massive innovation stack, you think it is just a battery and electric motor, you are dead wrong, the reinjuring how the weight the chasity the suspension in the software, how do you approach her car, there are hundreds of things that are different, theres an innovation stack that gm will have a hard time copying. I have tremendous respect for these companies especially because they usually get so much abuse of the early stage, you want to see a company with a innovation stack you should look for the ones with the most mocking. We only have a couple minutes left, we talk about perfect problems and i want to ask what is the next perfect problem that youve identified that you want to solve. The one im working on is journalism, specifically the problem that we as individuals have lost control of her Online Identities and we no longer have control over part of ourselves, right now i exist as a bunch of servers and act Tech Companies and big platforms, i dont know its in the files and if its being used for my good or against me, it is just bad for me as an individual, what is also bad as an individual, i lost my economic voice, which i mean by this, cannot pay more for good content unless for crab. Here is the problem, most media these days is monetized using advertising so the subscriptions at work for a handful publications, most publications and most videos are supported, the washington post, youre one of the five, washington post, financial times, and in the economist, if it is not one of those five actually your institution, they go celeste tried to talk me into doing this back in 2016 of building a micro Payment System and the reason he wanted to do this and the reason ive been doing this is because all of us as Consumers Want to be able to pay more for good stuff and less for bad stuff because thats how we signal whats good, im about to go have lunch in d. C. And i will spend my money at some restaurant and i will eat vegan because they eat a plantbased diet. If i buy expensive vegetables and pay more for a plant burger and a what a real hamburger, thats a vote for a plantbased diet, if i pay 20 bucks for a burger, that is 20 votes for this thing that i want. We tabulate all those votes and thats what gives us quality in everything. But it does not work online, this greeting about online consumption is if i trick you into watching something for ten seconds i make the same pennies off the seconds as of the ten seconds you love, your journal assesses what you do for living, you need to get paid your whole organization, they need to get paid and you know who will pay for that, consumers like me who consume yourself, i need to pay you more because you have a Big Organization has to create the quality and is not a judgment of whos right and whos wrong, it is simply a way humans need to be able to express their preferences, otherwise will be left with crab, think of it again in terms of food, free pass a law in d. C. That every meal was ten bucks, would you like it . What happens, i said i got a great restaurant, fancy steak, they just went out of business because they cant put a fancy steak in front of you for 10. You will not start because what will happen is a Business Model that replaces it, we will make the cheapest crab that we possibly can and sell it for 10. That is the world that we live in an journalism and what i think is a crime is a fact of what would become is a combination of a little bit of what we eat and what we put in our heads. In the model for what we eat, pretty much works, the model for what we put in our heads, the material that you created as a journalist is dumping economically incentivized by the system that rewards cheap, thank god jeff is rich in amazon is a Great Company because amazon made jeff rich and jeff employees you probably loses money on the deal. Thank you jeff for employing cat. But the point is, we should not have to live in that world and thats what im working on right now. Thats unfortunately all the time that we have for today, thank you so much for joining to talk about the new book and again, is innovation stack. Sunday night on q a, journalist susanna discusses her book the great pretender about a 1973 experiment led by stanford psychologist david rosen amp testing the legitimacy of psychiatric hospital. Because we had a wide influence on so much of what we contend with today in the Mental Health crisis that we see today was touched in some ways by the study and a lot of Public Opinion about psychiatry and the institution were in part cheap by the study, i think the unquestioning, we have to go back and question our assumptions and i hope that this gives us an opportunity to go back and reassess in a way to move forward because we cannot move forward on a round foundation, if the study was not up to snuff or legitimate, we really have to rethink the conclusions that are presented. Sunday night on a eastern unceasing q a. Cspan has unfiltered coverage of congress, the Supreme Court and Public Policy event from the president ial primary to the impeachment process. 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